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Rudder Control Sensitivity

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Hey Folks,

 

I have been lent a copy of OFF - first version I think - to see if I like it before investing in the pack. I use it with an original CFS 3 disc.

 

It is truly awesome as a game but I have just one problem - but it almost ruins the entire experience for me.

 

No matter what settings I employ, or what aircraft I select, the rudder controls are so sensitive that I have to go to auto rudder to fly them with any degree of co-ordination at all.

 

I am a fairly experienced MSFS player and was a military fixed and rotary wing pilot. I have even even flown Tigers, so I have a rough idea how these craft actually handled. Therefore, i can only deduce that I have some obscure setting wrong or some file is corrupt.

 

I would be grateful for any advice or guidance.

 

Thank you

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I've just got OFF3/BH&H and compared to Phase 2, it's obviously the major improvement I'd hoped for; everything is sooo much better, from the planes and the environment to the AI and the interface. And it seems to perform better, too. I'm looking forward to starting some careers, including some in 2-seaters - even if you don't fly them, OFF P3 is way ahead of the other modern WW1 flight sims in the variety of 2-seaters in the air, and a worthy successor to RB3d (another later-war German one like the Rumpler CVII or LVG CVI would be ideal). So far, I especially appreciate the improved appearance of the many aircraft, and of the environment/terrain, along with the much better dogfighting AI, which from what I've seen so far, is another area where P3 is way better than P2. The Pup is a joy to behold, and the Roland CII is a most impressive crate and reminds me of my Airfix 'Dogfight Double" days. Also nice to be able to fly and fight against the unloved but elegant BE2c, another one of the many excellently-depicted planes.

 

But I'm not entirely convinced on this rudder control issue.

 

No argument, pedals are better (I just have a Cyborg twisty stick). Perhaps also, WW1 planes needed more rudder use; my only RL flight time is about 10 hours on the Cessna 150/152/172 which had about WW1 levels of HP but being modern designs, didn't need much rudder, from what I remember - takeoff, landing, balancing turns.

 

The planes in OFF seem to need rather a lot of 'bottom rudder' in turns, otherwise the tail dips to the extent you get a significant sideslip which can quickly become fatal near the ground, if not corrected. Flying level turns is hard even if you have a plane with a turn & slip indicator, regardless of whether pedals make this easier, which I have no doubt they do. My question is, is the extent of this sideslip behaviour realistic?

 

Maybe this is just better modelling of what I've heard is a common tendency to tail-heaviness with WW1 planes; tho in OFF P3, the noses seem to have no tendency to rise in level flight, even at full power. Anyway I'm not sure if the sheer extent of a sideslip in a turn is quite right - height loss yes but I'd have expected such a pronounced sideslip, only if I tried to overcorrect height loss by holding the nose up too much, or maybe overbanked. But the sideslip seems very pronounced, even in a gentle turn (c.20 degree bank). In that respect, it reminds me of the CFS2 WW1 addon 'Combat Aces' and I had my doubts about that, too.

 

The other strange rudder-related thing is when I try to do a 'flat turn' with just the rudder (like Voss in his last fight, and I recall a German 2-seater pilot doing the same after an attacker believed to have been Navarre damaged his roll control) . In an OFF SE5a, when I apply rudder, I do get some roll in the same direction (this being the secondary effect of rudder, after yaw IIRC) and have to put in some opposite aileron to keep wings level; so far, so good. In the Roland CII and Pfalz DIII, however, I get no roll, the wings stay level - strange. In all three - and this is the really strange part, to me - the plane seems to keep on skidding nearly on the original course. I'd expect some sideways skid in a flat turn, but the amount seems visibly too much. The SE is not too bad, the nose does come round slowly. With the German types, the sideways component is such that the plane (judged against landmarks at low level) seems to be flying almost sideways, with the fuselage 30-45 degrees to the direction of travel, and way more sideways component. They seem to be able to fly this way indefinitely, unless I apply and maintain full rudder, which after a little while makes then stall and spin out. I'd expect the German planes with their lack of dihedral to skid more than the SE5 but it seems way too much.

 

I'm flying auto mix on, auto rudder off, FM realistic.

 

For comparison, on the SE5a in First Eagles with 'hard' settings, if I try a flat turn, I get a faster, more pronounced roll after putting in the rudder, and have to put in more opposite aileron than in OFF, to keep the wings level. But when I do, the plane 'crabs' around in a flat turn more like I'd have expected, with much less sideways component. Similarly in turns, in FE2 a certain amount of bottom rudder helps to balance the turn and hold off height loss, perhaps a bit more than I recall from Cessnas, but the tendency to sideslip without it - the sideways component - is a good deal less than in OFF.

 

Any thoughts, folks? Try flat turns in a Roland or a Pfalz and see what you think. Something that might be worth looking at as an FM improvement - not so much the flat turn thing, which seems another, less important symptom, but the [EXTENT of the] tendency to sideslip in turns.

Edited by 33LIMA

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Update - just flew a short flight in an Albatros DIII and the behaviour seemed quite different/better - rudder promptly producing decent 'secondary' roll, no 'exaggerated' (IMHO) sidelsip in turns, and flat turns didn't have what seemed to be an excessive 'skid' either - perfect! And the DIII is another beautiful thing to behold, against the wintry landscape and glowering grey clouds of March 1917.

 

But I would like to do some flying in SEs, the Pfalz and the Roland and wonder if their sideslipping tendencies could maybe be reined in a bit; it could hinder their effectiveness in the hands of AI pilots, too - maybe something for a modder, if not the dev team? With so many planes in the sim, it would be amazing if every single FM was as good as it might be, especially since the original CFS3 Game Studio team didn't seem do particularly well in the FM department with many less planes and an engine intended for WW2. I'm not complaining or pretending I know more than the experts, just providing some feedback.

Edited by 33LIMA

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Well, I put in a bit more time in the SE5 and I'm now inclined to think that the sideslip in turns is mainly from adverse yaw, nothing more dramatic than that. I'm not sure I'd expect this much of it in an SE5 with its inline engine and fairly large fixed tail surfaces, but there it is. After a bit of practice I find that with a bit of bottom rudder and an eye on my bank angle and rate of turn, I can now fly more or less perfectly level and quite tight turns without sideslip and generally enjoy myself without messing up the scenery.

 

Tried a simple circuit in the SE and am coming to the conclusion OFF is a rather good flight simulator, never mind the 'combat' bit. No VSI to watch but it certainly brought back recent memories of flying the Cessnas, watching my speed, altitude and heading, looking out for traffic before making turns, judging when to roll out onto the new heading and all the other good stuff. The combination of sound, scenery and the feeling of flight was all pretty convincing.

 

BTW I managed a couple of 360 degree flat turns in the SE. The wings did wobble at times, but only a bit, I'd still consider it a flat turn. Trying to do everything with the joystick like you said is a pain in the...wrist, actually; but it was possible. Started at a heading of 360 at 2300 feet and ASI settled at 112mph at full power, and came right around in a left-hand turn with the rudder, just using aileron to keep wings level; didn't lose any altitude, either, used the Z key to keep tabs on the metrics. So not sure why some report it can't be done; if I can manage it, anyone should be able to, unless a wing dipping over maybe 5-10 degrees for a split second is taken as a 'fail', which to me is more in the realms of precision aerobatics rather than routine flying.

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An awful lot depends on what Stick you're using, the Microsoft Sidewinder II is a great stick, but the rudder response is pitiful. It was never made with WW1 aircraft in mind. ( Great with Pedals )

 

Moving the rudder on WWII birds was minimal, and Jets even less

 

By the same token, use of Autorudder can make everything handle like a cinder block with wings

 

The Saitek EVO Power Cyborg is close to pedals ( unfortunately no longer available )

 

Seems like there no way to know before hand . . . . .if you're not using Pedals . . . it's a crapshoot

 

I've heard of good results with some fairly inexpensive sticks The Thrustmaster 1600 for one

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Firstly . . .Stay AWAY from Auto Rudder as it's sure to make a Sopwith Pup handle like a flying brick . . .It was included for back in the old Days of CFS1 where half the joysticks didn't have a twist function, once Microsoft gets an idea 'That's it". it was on CFS2, and CFS3

 

Not that you have any choice in the matter, but you can see just what your "Twisty Stick" in OFF.

 

Go to FLOAT VIEW = Shift + F6 . . That will provide an exterior view of your aircraft, just like you were behind it and off to one side.

 

Then move that 'Twisty Stick' and you'll see it move :clapping:

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A Reprint from Uncle Al's Hints and Tips STICKY . . It actually works . . Except my left hand is working the throttle

 

The human body was never designed with the ‘Twisty Stick’ in mind, at least not when it comes to WWI flight sims anyway. In the WWII prop-driven aircraft there was some use of rudder, but not much, (except for runway activity). In the jets even less. However in 1917 we're dealing with full travel use of the rudder in gunnery, and that violent momentary course correction just prior to shooting. I won't say it’s impossible, but it's very difficult to hold a totally flat pivoting action as you twist the joystick, while squeezing the trigger to shoot at the same time. Unless you're very careful you're always going to have a slight aileron movement, usually just enough to bank off your target. I haven't met the pilot who can hold a turn that flat, without pedals, in a dogfight. I'm sure they exist, but I ain't one.

 

SOLUTION: Don't use the trigger; use the ‘Spacebar’. Your machine gun will still fire, plus your hit percentage will be noticeably higher. Try it and see, because what is your other hand doing then anyway, playing pocket pool?

 

NOTE: How to find your hit percentage in OFF, set ‘Player Stats’ in Workshop to ‘On’.

 

.

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