How to dogfight in the Tomcat?

[Stratos 3,168]

I know the Tomcat is not a dogfighter and If I reach a dogfight is that I made something terribly wrong, but sometimes shit happens and is always fun to dogfight against Floggers and Fishbeds, so my question is, how can I dogfight properly in the Tomcat? Is a terrible horizontal turner, should I extend or is possible somehow to turn?

[+JonathanRL 973]

Dive and get range. You are dead in a turn-fight anyway.

[+76.IAP-Blackbird 3,545]

keep your speed up

[claw 17]

Depending on the performance of the opponent going vertical is an option.

[Stratos 3,168]

keep your speed up

 

What's the corner speed for the F14A?

[+76.IAP-Blackbird 3,545]

Im flying around 350 - 450 and some acrobatics to get the enemy ... or simply missile them to death.

[+Muesli 2,151]

Splash and dash...

[Stratos 3,168]

Splash and dash...

 

What's that?

Im flying around 350 - 450 and some acrobatics to get the enemy ... or simply missile them to death.

 

I use Sidewinders, but I need to point them towards the target.

[+SupGen 78]

  Stratos, look for Caesars posts in the pinned DACT thread. He's got dogfighting the Tomcat down to a science.

[Peugeot205 2,745]

It is just game. Do whatever you want to dogfight. If you are hit or you crash your are not going to die.

 

As simple as that.

[Caesar 305]

Just a quick fix to your opening statement:

I know the Tomcat is not a dogfighter and If I reach a dogfight is that I did not do something terribly wrong...

 

The whole "dogfighting" thing was the reason the Navy killed the F-111B and made the F-14's requirements to be able to do just that. Not to mention of every aerial victory the F-14 has had in Navy service, 4 of 5 were done with AIM-9's at dogfight range. The baseline "A" Tomcat is a better horizontal turner than either the Fishbed or the Flogger (any model) when equipped similarly, even 30,000 pounds heavier.  The B/D, depending on altitude will either out-sustain or match turns with the Hornet, Eagle, Falcon, Fulcrum, or Flanker similarly equipped.  Problem is, when you get into specific, real-world details, what altitudes, airspeeds, precise loadouts, which airplane against which, etc. people get on edge with words like "OPSEC" and "international restrictions" and "jail time."  So keeping it specifically to the game, first, I'd recommend checking the DACT thread.  I think I've fought damn near every airplane in that thread in either the F-14A or F-14B/D and come out on top.  Cougar also has videos of his entire fights in the F-14A against an F-16 and a Su-27 where he gets either with guns, so those could give you some insight as well.

 

General notes:

 

In the baseline F-14A, fighting against the MiG-21 or -23, I try for a sustained turning fight.  I don't need to use the vertical in either a 1 v 1 or 1 v 2, because I know I can out-rate these two.  When its a multi-bandit environment, I use both vertical and horizontal, because someone always pops up somewhere and the complexity of the fight increases significantly.  Usually, I try to keep the plane between 325 and about 425 KIAS and pay attention to how much "g" I've got on the plane.  Higher "g" does not equate to better rate.  Higher "g" at lower speed does, so if I can sustain about 5.5-6g down around 325-350KIAS, I can hang with someone doing 8-9g way up in the 500's, AND my circle is smaller.  Bear in mind in any fighter as you get higher in altitude, you have lower sustainable "g" - just like in reality, in SF2, engines put out less power as the air gets thinner at higher altitude, so you will have to adjust how hard you're pulling; usually, I try to keep the fight between 500 and 20,000 feet in the F-14A, because above that, the TF-30's are just awful.

 

Flying against the MiG-17 (or Hunter), do not turn.  The MiG-17 will out-turn just about every fighter in the US inventory, including the teen-series, unless you get it way the hell up in the contrails.  In reality, it couldn't do jack if it got above 450KIAS, so if you were to edit the data.ini to reflect this, you'd have the option of keeping speed up and turning at high airspeeds with it.  On the other hand, if you don't, or even if you do and the AI doesn't feel like chasing you that fast, this is one to exploit the vertical against.  The baseline F-14A's thrust-to-weight isn't stellar against more modern fighters, but against the MiG-17, Hunter, Mirage III and 5, it is significantly better.  Use altitude as an advantage and swoop down on the Fresco.  Keep that energy up, sometimes they try to get on your tail and follow you - a few loops and they're out of energy.  This is one of the few planes I'll pull the fight higher than 20,000 feet against.

 

Against the MiG-25 or -31, just do whatever the hell you want to.  You want to talk about aircraft that can't turn, these are your two.  Heck, I turn against them in a hard-wing F-4D without issue!

 

Against a more modern opponent in the F-14A, it really depends on how the AI handles the aircraft.  It can't handle the F-14 or F-15 well at all, the F-16 and MiG-29 are usually pretty difficult, while the Su-27 usually pisses away all its airspeed.  It can wrench its nose around quick to be sure, but it also ends up a sitting duck fairly quickly.  Against the F/A-18A/C, I've noticed I can usually either turn or use the vertical so long as I pay attention to when I'm burning energy for position, and don't have as much difficulty as fighting the F-16 or MiG-29.  Fighting against those aircraft is really situationally dependent.  The F-16, I'll try to get above him, take the nose down a bit for higher sustained "g," or if I can, get the fight slow, drop flaps AND USE RUDDERS.  The latter option is more dangerous against a Fulcrum (higher available pitch), but I've used it successfully.  If I'm flying an F-14B/D, it's a totally different story, and I can turn with 'em as well.

 

Hope this gives you some ideas!

[saisran 84]

Just read everything that Caesar said. 

[MigBuster 2,861]

I know the Tomcat is not a dogfighter and If I reach a dogfight is that I made something terribly wrong, but sometimes shit happens and is always fun to dogfight against Floggers and Fishbeds, so my question is, how can I dogfight properly in the Tomcat? Is a terrible horizontal turner, should I extend or is possible somehow to turn?

 

Take this guys example 

 

 

[saisran 84]

Take this guys example 

 

 

TomCruiseInF-16.jpg

 

 

[Boresight 51]

Just a quick fix to your opening statement:

 

The whole "dogfighting" thing was the reason the Navy killed the F-111B and made the F-14's requirements to be able to do just that. Not to mention of every aerial victory the F-14 has had in Navy service, 4 of 5 were done with AIM-9's at dogfight range. The baseline "A" Tomcat is a better horizontal turner than either the Fishbed or the Flogger (any model) when equipped similarly, even 30,000 pounds heavier.  The B/D, depending on altitude will either out-sustain or match turns with the Hornet, Eagle, Falcon, Fulcrum, or Flanker similarly equipped.  Problem is, when you get into specific, real-world details, what altitudes, airspeeds, precise loadouts, which airplane against which, etc. people get on edge with words like "OPSEC" and "international restrictions" and "jail time."  So keeping it specifically to the game, first, I'd recommend checking the DACT thread.  I think I've fought damn near every airplane in that thread in either the F-14A or F-14B/D and come out on top.  Cougar also has videos of his entire fights in the F-14A against an F-16 and a Su-27 where he gets either with guns, so those could give you some insight as well.

 

General notes:

 

In the baseline F-14A, fighting against the MiG-21 or -23, I try for a sustained turning fight.  I don't need to use the vertical in either a 1 v 1 or 1 v 2, because I know I can out-rate these two.  When its a multi-bandit environment, I use both vertical and horizontal, because someone always pops up somewhere and the complexity of the fight increases significantly.  Usually, I try to keep the plane between 325 and about 425 KIAS and pay attention to how much "g" I've got on the plane.  Higher "g" does not equate to better rate.  Higher "g" at lower speed does, so if I can sustain about 5.5-6g down around 325-350KIAS, I can hang with someone doing 8-9g way up in the 500's, AND my circle is smaller.  Bear in mind in any fighter as you get higher in altitude, you have lower sustainable "g" - just like in reality, in SF2, engines put out less power as the air gets thinner at higher altitude, so you will have to adjust how hard you're pulling; usually, I try to keep the fight between 500 and 20,000 feet in the F-14A, because above that, the TF-30's are just awful.

 

Flying against the MiG-17 (or Hunter), do not turn.  The MiG-17 will out-turn just about every fighter in the US inventory, including the teen-series, unless you get it way the hell up in the contrails.  In reality, it couldn't do jack if it got above 450KIAS, so if you were to edit the data.ini to reflect this, you'd have the option of keeping speed up and turning at high airspeeds with it.  On the other hand, if you don't, or even if you do and the AI doesn't feel like chasing you that fast, this is one to exploit the vertical against.  The baseline F-14A's thrust-to-weight isn't stellar against more modern fighters, but against the MiG-17, Hunter, Mirage III and 5, it is significantly better.  Use altitude as an advantage and swoop down on the Fresco.  Keep that energy up, sometimes they try to get on your tail and follow you - a few loops and they're out of energy.  This is one of the few planes I'll pull the fight higher than 20,000 feet against.

 

Against the MiG-25 or -31, just do whatever the hell you want to.  You want to talk about aircraft that can't turn, these are your two.  Heck, I turn against them in a hard-wing F-4D without issue!

 

Against a more modern opponent in the F-14A, it really depends on how the AI handles the aircraft.  It can't handle the F-14 or F-15 well at all, the F-16 and MiG-29 are usually pretty difficult, while the Su-27 usually pisses away all its airspeed.  It can wrench its nose around quick to be sure, but it also ends up a sitting duck fairly quickly.  Against the F/A-18A/C, I've noticed I can usually either turn or use the vertical so long as I pay attention to when I'm burning energy for position, and don't have as much difficulty as fighting the F-16 or MiG-29.  Fighting against those aircraft is really situationally dependent.  The F-16, I'll try to get above him, take the nose down a bit for higher sustained "g," or if I can, get the fight slow, drop flaps AND USE RUDDERS.  The latter option is more dangerous against a Fulcrum (higher available pitch), but I've used it successfully.  If I'm flying an F-14B/D, it's a totally different story, and I can turn with 'em as well.

 

Hope this gives you some ideas!

 

Very good read. This pratically says it all.

[MAKO69 186]

"Hit the brakes, he'll fly right by"

[Stratos 3,168]

I'm now reading the DACT post, but basically is to keep speed between 325 and 425 knots, and use the rudder to help you turn right? What about the B and D versions?

[saisran 84]

I'm now reading the DACT post, but basically is to keep speed between 325 and 425 knots, and use the rudder to help you turn right? What about the B and D versions?

 

Same thing. The only difference is you have much more agile and powerful jet which means you don't have to be in afterburner all the time. Also in the B/D; you can play in the 450 region (wing on mid swept) and watch as eagles and other modern fighter go round wide at .90M. 

[Caesar 305]

Rudders are most helpful in the slow fight (~90-180KIAS), but yes, in a turn, you can use them to quickly adjust the nose off of your current plane of turn and sweeten your gun solution.  I think in the "A" you want a bit more energy if you're going for the vertical fight, so I'd keep closer to 450KIAS entering speed since those TF-30's don't push the bird anywhere near as well as the F110's.  For the F-14B/D, you can keep the aircraft in the same regions of speed as the F-14A, but you'll notice you've got more sustainable "g" available to you (and hence, better sustained turn rate), thanks to the better thrust.  Instantaneous is roughly the same for either aircraft, since the configuration is almost totally unchanged between the two (glove vanes removed, and those only pop out at around 1.4M).  Also, the extra thrust of the GE engines makes the F-14B/D a lot easier to fight with at slow speeds.  I recall fighting against some nimble little adversary who got on my tails and performing a double-Immleman, flaps down.  First one got him slower, second one ran him out of energy completely, which led to a guns kill quickly after.  Wouldn't have been able to do that with the TF-30's.  I used the same thing in an F-15 against a MiG-29 on a different fight, which is in the DACT thread.

 

Generally, in a multi-bandit environment, you don't want to get that slow.  It's great for guns only fights, but you need energy to expend if someone's going to start chucking missiles your way!  

[TheWarrior 62]

I have never really had a problem dog fighting in an F-14.

[Caesar 305]

Stratos,

 

How's the dogfighting coming?  Find anything useful?

[Stratos 3,168]

Yes, the corner speed is the key I think together with the use of the rudders during combat. The fact that the Sidewinder is a reliable missile helps a lot too.

 

Problems I encountered at the moment, I still lose too much speed, sometimes I find myself at 275 kts or something like this, (maybe too much stick?), and I cannot use the dogfight mode with Sparrows, is that realistic? Not related to dogfighting but it seems the Phoenix was never carried during Mediterranean cruisers, why is that?

 

Also, is not possible to use any kind of ILS to get back on the carrier?

[Caesar 305]

Sparrow and Phoenix can be used in a dogfight in the game, as in reality, but neither are well suited for that purpose.  Both will fire if you use VSL High and get a lock, but VSL High only scans 5NM, so you're going to have to shoot real fast after you get a lock on.  Phoenix has an Rmin of about 1.9NM, takes about a full second to drop and fire, and has to be fired at less than 5g.  When I was testing the missile, I found it could be used close to its minimum range, but the amount of time it takes to drop, fire motor, and start guiding made it kind of dangerous.  Sparrow is a bit better close in if it's a post-E model (F, M, P).

 

Phoenix probably was carried in the Med, but most of the engagements/encounters your hear about (Fitter and Flogger shoot-downs, airliner intercept) were done with aircraft configured for fighting, not interception.  

 

With respect to your last question, your ILS mode should automatically engage when you get to Waypoint 10 if your HUD is in navigation mode.

[Boresight 51]

Yes, the corner speed is the key I think together with the use of the rudders during combat. The fact that the Sidewinder is a reliable missile helps a lot too.

 

Problems I encountered at the moment, I still lose too much speed, sometimes I find myself at 275 kts or something like this, (maybe too much stick?), and I cannot use the dogfight mode with Sparrows, is that realistic? Not related to dogfighting but it seems the Phoenix was never carried during Mediterranean cruisers, why is that?

 

Also, is not possible to use any kind of ILS to get back on the carrier?

 

Hello Stratos,

 

I believe that sometimes, when dogfighting in the Tomcat against smaller and nimbler fighters it's usual (but not desirable), that one ends up with very low energy (speed), particularly if there's the tendency to force those last angles to get the aircraft's nose on the bad guy.

 

When in the Tomcat, generally I try to mantain no less than 380 - 390 kts corner speed until I get on the enemy's aircraft rear quarter, just when i manage to get there, I might allow the corner speed to drop below those speeds (forcing the stick) to get the final angles and get my weapons on him.

 

However what I described not always is easy, or possible - in case your enemy has a better turn rate aircraft than you.

 

Still I believe In SF2 the enemy aircraft AI isn't that much hard when dogfighting.

( Comparing to " TOPGUN: Fire at Will! " which I played some 20 years ago, when encountering a MiG-29, it became very clear what superior turn rate was. Against that I got killed more than 90 % of the dogfights. )

[saisran 84]

Yes, the corner speed is the key I think together with the use of the rudders during combat. The fact that the Sidewinder is a reliable missile helps a lot too.

 

Problems I encountered at the moment, I still lose too much speed, sometimes I find myself at 275 kts or something like this, (maybe too much stick?), and I cannot use the dogfight mode with Sparrows, is that realistic? Not related to dogfighting but it seems the Phoenix was never carried during Mediterranean cruisers, why is that?

 

Also, is not possible to use any kind of ILS to get back on the carrier?

 

 

Just my thoughts. Try to ease up on the stick. I actually configured my stick to give me just as little movement possible while im only using minimum input. I find that gradual movement on the stick and a bit of throttle management (B/D) works best for the Tomcat. Although if you do get slow and your in a 1v1, take comfort in the fact the you can drop your flaps and get an extra advantage. Still, as much as possible keep you speed up.  

 

http://combatace.com/topic/62762-sf2-series-dact-reports-and-related-a2a-discussions-game-only/page-58

Edited April 3, 2015 by saisran