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WW2 Artillery?


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#1 baffmeister

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 02:34:33 PM

I would like to add some artillery positions to the Battle of the Bulge terrain I'm working on but I'm having a hard time finding equipment. Many of the old SF-1 WW2 uploads have lost their screenshots and many of the files available don't have much of a description as to what they actually are and the date range they are good for. Some objects might just be described as BTB-152 Mk3. [I just made that up but hopefully you get the point.]

 

Anyway, I would like to install some U.S. and German artillery in the 100mm range as well as a couple of pieces in the 50-75mm range. Any ideas suggestions? Re-tasking some other objects might work as well. I'm interested in the most common guns in the 1944-45 time frame.


Edited by baffmeister, 02 January 2017 - 02:42:15 PM.

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#2 whiteknight06604

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 02:48:16 PM

short of getting someone to make a new model for you I think your options are the gun in Pasko's old vehicle set or the various  3rd party artillery units from First Eagles.


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#3 Wrench

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 04:03:11 PM

I "made" some from various things, and they're included in some of my ww2 terrains.

 

also, don't forget Geo's ww2 vehicles -- 88s, 3.7 brit AAA gun (retasked as arty in some cases), 37mm US and others. I'l look through my GO folder when I get a chance

 

also check the Falklands mod for various artys


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#4 NeverEnough

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 04:32:57 PM

Baffmeister, look for the artillery models MontyCZ did.  He had some particularly handsome WW2 ground objects.  Stephen1918 also did some WW1 artillery which you may be able to use, which are also very nicely done.



#5 baffmeister

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 04:38:43 PM



Baffmeister, look for the artillery models MontyCZ did.  He had some particularly handsome WW2 ground objects.  Stephen1918 also did some WW1 artillery which you may be able to use, which are also very nicely done.

 

I downloaded some MontyCZ Skoda [I think] artillery so will take a closer look.

 

Agreed. Both MontyCZ and Stephen1918 make some nice stuff!


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#6 NeverEnough

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 07:45:26 PM

Take a look at MontyCZ's Flak Pack.  It has the Flak 88 and the Flak 30.



#7 baffmeister

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 07:00:09 AM

Got an Americanized version of Wrenchs' D-20 upload working in game. Set up a few pieces near a GROUND_ATTACK route and they are engaging the enemy forces. The attack route is in a hilly area and the artillery seems to require contact based on line of sight. That goes for the tanks as well. I've seen some tanks not engaging even at short distances and when zooming in for a look I can see they don't have line of sight contact. Some more testing to do while I continue to place the small towns.

 

Got MontyCZs' Flak 88 and Flak 30 downloaded but not installed yet.


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#8 Geezer

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 01:49:57 PM

Got an Americanized version of Wrenchs' D-20 upload working in game. Set up a few pieces near a GROUND_ATTACK route and they are engaging the enemy forces. The attack route is in a hilly area and the artillery seems to require contact based on line of sight. That goes for the tanks as well. I've seen some tanks not engaging even at short distances and when zooming in for a look I can see they don't have line of sight contact. Some more testing to do while I continue to place the small towns.

 

 

Stephen1918 did similar experiments in FE and found that artillery engaged more reliably when an enemy observation balloon was located near/over the targets - that apparently gave a direct line of sight.  Dunno if this still works in the latest versions of SF2.  If it does, maybe a "special" model of just one tiny poly - that gamers don't see but the game DOES see - could be placed over targets?

 

Below is WIP shot of your new ground objects.

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#9 Wrench

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 03:20:27 PM

what about raising the viewport position a few hundred meters? To "look over" obsticales?


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#10 baffmeister

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 05:38:04 PM

what about raising the viewport position a few hundred meters? To "look over" obsticales?

 

It might just be that I have to place the artillery at the higher elevation areas surrounding the target area. More experiments to do but maybe some kind of networking statement in the data.inis would help?


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#11 baffmeister

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 08:22:43 AM

Screen shot of the D-20 supporting Sherman tanks attacking defending German Panthers at about 5-7KM range.

 

Artillery Test.jpg

 

The D-20 had a DataLink=TRUE statement but the Sherman didn't so I added it. Not sure if that helped because I placed the D-20 at a higher elevation as well. [poor test procedures.]

 

The D-20 didn't actually hit anything at that range, the rounds were well short. I did see a couple of hits at closer range during another test.

 

I hope to make a semi-historical campaign for this terrain so plan to add the artillery at locations that weren't overrun during the Battle of the Bulge. That would include the Monschau/Hofen area and Elsenborn Ridge, on the northern shoulder of the battle. Will probably add some anti-tank guns as well. Any campaign will have to be VERY simplified compared to the actual battle which was very complex with lots of small unit action. For anyone interested, here is a link to a good article about the battle. https://www.ibiblio..../index.html#XIX

 

 


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#12 baffmeister

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 10:44:56 AM

Artillery issues cropping up but I still plan on using some in a limited way for this terrain.

 

ISSUES SO FAR:

 

I installed MontyCZs' German 105MM LeFZ18 howitzer with Gun Data based on what I found on Wikipedia. The muzzle velocity is only 470ms and with the targets at about 3km the rounds were falling well short. Max range for that gun in RL is about 10KM. The only way I could get the howitzer to reach the target at the 3km range was to increase the muzzle velocity to 2000ms. I guess there is a game limitation regarding gun aiming as the gun barrel doesn't elevate enough to get the required range with the low muzzle velocity. I tried increasing the RangeFinder and BallisticComputer settings to 10 each but that didn't affect the range. I tried raising the ViewPort setting to 2000m but that didn't affect the range either. I think a higher viewport setting is a good idea though, it will make placing the guns in hilly terrain a lot easier.

 

During testing I noticed at times there were no explosions when the rounds were hitting the ground. Added a tracer to see what was going on and for some reason rounds going into the side of a hill had no explosion effect.

 

During one test, the howitzer wouldn't fire at the tank targets. Checked the tank data and the max visible distance was set to only 3000m. A typical TW tank max visible distance is 7000m so, with optical sights, all the targets that you want the howitzer to engage will need a max viewing distance within the desired max range of the howitzer. For the Battle of the Bulge terrain, I'm going to try and get the 105mm artillery to fire at targets out to 5km range which means even small targets, like squads of soldiers, will need a max visible distance of 5km.

 

Anyway, I don't plan on spending a lot of time messing around with artillery but will do a bit more testing on FLAT terrain to see what kind of muzzle velocity is required to get the 5km range. Will also be playing around a bit with RangeFinder and Accuracy settings to see if I can get a convincing pattern for the falling shells.

 

I am a bit curious about some weapon data included in Montys' artillery upload. It looks like a "semi smart" rocket fired from the barrel and was wondering if something like that would work with the big guns on the WW2 battleships and cruisers. Anyone ever tried something like that?

 

Montys' gun in action:

 

German Howitzer.jpg


Edited by baffmeister, 07 January 2017 - 10:47:18 AM.

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#13 baffmeister

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 12:18:09 PM

RELEASE THE STURM TIGER!!!

 

Sturm Tiger-1.jpg

 

Ravens' Sturm Tiger in action, firing a large 38cm rocket projectile. These were built in very limited numbers but seven of them were moved to the front line prior to the Battle of the Bulge offensive. Not sure to what extent they were actually used but they will make good strike targets. I hope to get it working well enough to use as artillery within the 5KM range limit I'm using.


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#14 baffmeister

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 04:04:40 PM

A very nice Geezer 105mm American field gun installed and working.

 

US 105mm Artillery.jpg

 

Still experimenting a bit but the flat gun trajectory requires careful placement of the artillery. The line of site viewing limitation can be addressed OK with the elevated view port.

I think having some artillery positions will work fine in areas that require strong offensive or defensive capabilities but might be a bit tricky to apply in campaigns. For a semi-historical campaign, some areas might require artillery positions that have a date range to provide a temporary slow down to the German offensive.

 

 


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#15 baffmeister

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 04:30:26 PM

Defending 75mm Sherman's getting some much needed help from an artillery base and Geezers' new 75mm AT gun.

 

75mmATgun.jpg

 

Back to thinking out loud.

 

I had to reduce the artillery viewing height to something more realistic otherwise the guns would fire at objects hidden in valley's, resulting in the flat trajectory artillery rounds sometimes hitting the ground just a short distance in front of the gun. The elevated viewing position should still work well with the Sturm Tiger. It actually did fire a rocket round, although the barrel looks more like a low velocity howitzer. The "semi-smart" higher trajectory rocket round should be able to navigate any hills and valley's OK.

 

Still messing about with the tanks but I've decided to use AP rounds with no explosive charge. Those types of rounds weren't always widely available but that seems to be the way ThirdWire does it and it keeps things consistent.

 

Using this approach, I've seen some ineffective hits at longer ranges, mainly with the lower velocity 75mm gun on the Sherman. As well as higher velocity guns, the German tanks had considerably more armor protection as well, with even the late model Panzer IV's getting significant upgrades.

 

Edit: Geezers new gun is actually a 76.2mm M5 AT gun.


Edited by baffmeister, 04 March 2017 - 06:32:41 PM.

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#16 krfrge

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 03:11:04 AM

How high did you raise the viewpoint?



#17 baffmeister

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 01:03:15 PM

How high did you raise the viewpoint?

 

VERY HIGH for the initial testing. something like 1000m. After seeing the problem I went down to about 100m but was still seeing some hits in front of the gun so I'm trying 10m now and no problems, but the artillery doesn't really act like artillery when it comes to lobbing rounds over hills. There is a bit of an arc to the high velocity rounds but not much. It is a limitation as far as modeling realistic artillery and I don't see a work around except using semi smart rocket rounds for the artillery. Monty CZ had an artillery piece set up like that but I didn't try it out. I can imagine some potential problems with that approach when used in campaigns, such as the arc of engagement coupled with a high viewing height causing the artillery to attack some target areas I would prefer it didn't. I might be able to use the present line of sight limitations to advantage if there is a target area in range that I would prefer not to receive artillery support.


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#18 baffmeister

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 10:35:42 PM

Geezers' PanzerWerfer in action, supporting an attack on Krewinkle.

 

PanzerWerfer-1.jpg

 

PanzerWerfer-2.jpg

 

At this point it's hard to say how the artillery is going to work out in a campaign. I've started to set up some attack routes along the front line that will be similar to the first day of the Battle of the Bulge so hopefully will learn something. Present plan is to release a beta terrain for single missions only then try and work up a campaign and final version of the terrain.


Edited by baffmeister, 21 April 2017 - 08:55:52 AM.

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#19 baffmeister

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 06:21:20 PM

Still working away on towns and attack routes. It has been quite tricky setting up the artillery with the attack routes but once things are working right it's a bit like watching a war movie.

Most of the attack routes along the front line favor the German side with no counter artillery or AT guns on the US side. However, at a few US strong points I've been adding artillery for both sides.

Here's a screen shot of a one sided battle with German artillery in Dasburg engaging US tanks on the outskirts of Marnach.

 

Dasburg Artillery.jpg


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