+peter01 2 Posted March 4, 2007 (edited) Hi EmID, I guess if your asking I 'd agree with more variants of the N24s, there so cool anway, won't go astray. The gunpod idea is good, but ...?? My vote would be to do two more seperate variants: one lewis on wing only for N24 say (no vickers), and an extra wing mounted lewis/vickers?? for N24bis. This would cover most bases! If I had to pick I'd go for second. Cheers Edited March 4, 2007 by peter01 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heck 496 Posted March 4, 2007 From what I've read, EmID, the Nieuports of this series usually flew with only one gun. Oddly, a single Vickers on French versions, and a single Lewis on the upper wing on British versions, exactly the opposite of what you'd expect. I think 90% of this series of aircraft flew with only one gun, twin guns being very rare, with twin Vickers being one of the rarest versions, only the twin Lewis on the upper wing being more rare. If they had two guns, it was usually a Vickers/Lewis combination. The version you've posted without the comma tail is actually a perfect Nieuport 27, very common in the RFC, if you give it one Lewis gun. If you produce two more versions of each of these, one version with a single Lewis on the upper wing (British), and a single Vickers on the cowling (French), you will have covered all the different common versions of these airplanes, from 24, to 24bis, and 27. Most flew with only one gun, because, with less than 130 horsepower, most pilots considered them to be underpowered with two guns aboard, so they preferred the better performance to the second gun. This is from what I've read, and seems to be backed up by most of the photographic evidence out there. Hope this helps. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gr.Viper 131 Posted March 4, 2007 Don't forget to change plane balance for two guns.. If you add an extra without drag and CG shift, it'll be cheating Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+EmlD 3 Posted March 4, 2007 Ok, i see. You mean: 1. New N24 with single Vickers (French) 2. New N24bis with single Lewis on the wing (British) 3. If i replace 1 Vickers (of 2) with Lewis on N24 i will be a N27? Is it a plan? We will have: 1. N24bis (1 Vickers) 2. N24bis (1 Levis)-------------> NEW 3. N24 (2 Vickers) 4. N24 (1 Vickers)--------------> NEW 5. N27 (1 Vickers, 1 Lewis)----> NEW It could be much better to make the guns available to choose in the loadout menu. We will have N24 and N24bis and you could take as many guns as you wont. Is it possible? EmlD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+v. Deutschmark 69 Posted March 4, 2007 (S!) ALL hi ;-) EM, if you cant do it through LOD out then what You have as a line up there would be fine, we would Have the different planes gun setup and now even a N 27 And we would have their right paints with the right plane Instead of having them all in one folder and would make it A little easier on the ini for different paints of planes. your friend in the FE sky v. Deutschmark Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heck 496 Posted March 4, 2007 (edited) Ok, i see. You mean: 1. New N24 with single Vickers (French) 2. New N24bis with single Lewis on the wing (British) 3. If i replace 1 Vickers (of 2) with Lewis on N24 i will be a N27? Is it a plan? We will have: 1. N24bis (1 Vickers) 2. N24bis (1 Levis)-------------> NEW 3. N24 (2 Vickers) 4. N24 (1 Vickers)--------------> NEW 5. N27 (1 Vickers, 1 Lewis)----> NEW It could be much better to make the guns available to choose in the loadout menu. We will have N24 and N24bis and you could take as many guns as you wont. Is it possible? EmlD This is a chart of what I meant, just for clarity. N24 (1 Vickers, French), using what you call the N24bis airframe N24 (1 Lewis, upper wing, British), using N24bis airframe N24 (1 Vickers, 1 Lewis, French or British), using N24bis airframe N24bis (1 Vickers, French) using N24bis airframe, uprated engine stats N24bis (1 Lewis, upper wing, British) using N24bis airframe, uprated engine stats N24bis (1 Vickers, 1 Lewis, French or British), using N24bis airframe uprated engine stats N27 (1 Vickers, French) using what you have as N24 airframe, uprated engine N27 (1 Lewis, upper wing, British) using what you have as N24 airframe, uprated engine N27 (1 Vickers, 1 Lewis, French or British) using what you have as N24 airframe, uprated engine For historical accuracy, I'd stay away from the two Vickers version, from what I've read, it was a rarity. The most common two gun versions were the Vickers/Lewis combination. I know this would lead to a lot of modelling work to create, but your models, and Tex's FM work are just superb, and I think you're both on the verge of creating a detailed view of this very muddled period of Nieuport design, which is important to the game, because the most commonly encountered Allied fighter type up until December of 1917 was a Nieuport sesquiplane of some type; 17, 24, 24bis, or 27, and they were used well into the spring of 1918 by both the French and British services, when the Spad 13 series, and the SE5a, encountered serious engine problems. No matter what you do with this, EmID, my sincere thanks to both you, and Tex, for your tremendous contributions. I love this series of airplanes, and you've brought them to life. We all owe you a great debt. Wonderful work. Edited March 4, 2007 by Heck Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+EmlD 3 Posted March 4, 2007 I am ready to make it all. It isn't much work, i have to model a Lewis, and then export LOD files for all 9 planes. Tex has to edit the FM (considering the Lewis drag and new Engine data for N27) Who wonts to make skins for all of them? Thats all, but Tex comes back only in 2 weeks... EmlD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+v. Deutschmark 69 Posted March 4, 2007 (S!) ALL hi ;-) I DO!!! And will make skins for them planes….. your friend in the FE sky v. Deutschmark Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Monty CZ 209 Posted March 4, 2007 Hello, because I already tried it, here you can try it and maybe solve some problems (I cant shoot from it, cant be reloaded :-( ) Here is my try on lewis gun mount (single and twin) Monty lewis.rar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+EmlD 3 Posted March 4, 2007 There are 2 ini files (Gundata for guns to shot from and weapondata for weapons to drop and to let it explose) To make a weapon work from LOADOUT menu, we need to declare it in weapondata.ini, but i am not sure if we can shot them... i am sure we can drop them of :) So maybe it is impossible to ask weapondata.ini to give us a shooting weapon, not a "dropping" one...cos MG isn't a bomb. I haven't seen a GUNPOD type of weapon than can be created in WeaponEditor EmlD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dhasdell 0 Posted March 4, 2007 I've got an RFC 24bis just about ready to upload. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest capun Posted March 4, 2007 There are 2 ini files (Gundata for guns to shot from and weapondata for weapons to drop and to let it explose) To make a weapon work from LOADOUT menu, we need to declare it in weapondata.ini, but i am not sure if we can shot them... i am sure we can drop them of :) So maybe it is impossible to ask weapondata.ini to give us a shooting weapon, not a "dropping" one...cos MG isn't a bomb. I haven't seen a GUNPOD type of weapon than can be created in WeaponEditor EmlD You can declare a gun to be a "gunpod" same as we did for the MG-60 for the helicopters in SFP1, If I remember correct they do not drop like a weapon, just in case I there is also a declaration to have the weapon not dropable as we did for the Meteor F8 fuel tank. One thing that you need to do is to have the gunpod set correctly for the attachment point and the plane data ini to have the gunpod angle to be 180 degrees (can't remember what value in the x,y,z format) since the gunpod is normally slung under the wings and not on top like for this application The weapon weight is added to the plane full weight, but I don't know how drag is simulated Hope it helps Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+EmlD 3 Posted March 4, 2007 I've got an RFC 24bis just about ready to upload. You can upload it, Nieuports will come soon or later ;) Thank you! EmlD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+EmlD 3 Posted March 5, 2007 (edited) (I cant shoot from it, cant be reloaded :-( ) Monty Ok, i got it to be seen on the wing, even without rockets, i can select it while flying together with primary Vickers and separate (only Lewis)..if selected together ..fires only Vickers, if selected Lewis ..it doesn't fire. (i am talking about the "in flight selection" with JoyKey-next weapon, after the loadout menu selection) For weaponsdata.ini is ewerything right declared. I am not sure for N17_data.ini Can anyone find a stock SFP1/WOV/WOE plane with GunPod, we need to look on the [WeaponStation] section of its _data.ini Why does it not FIRE? :crazy: EmlD EDIT: a plane with working gun_pod is good too, not only a STOCK plane..sry ;) Edited March 5, 2007 by EmlD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heck 496 Posted March 5, 2007 Guys, I know this is probably a stupid observation, since I don't know that much about the 3d modelling of these planes, etc, but the Vickers/Lewis combo works quite well for the SE5a stock plane. Is there any way to mimic its setup in the data ini of a Nieuport? Would that work? Is it the two gun groups that allow this to work? The SE5a uses two gun groups: [internalGun1] SystemType=FIXED_GUN GunTypeName=303CAL_VICKERS_MK1 InputName=FIRE_PRIMARY_GUN GunGroup=1<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< here? MuzzlePosition=-0.16,0.27,0.49 LightPosition=-0.16,0.36,0.50 AimAngles=0.0,5.0,0.0 MaxAmmo=400 EjectShells=TRUE EjectPosition=0.0,-0.17,-0.49 EjectVelocity=0.0,0.0,-1.0 MinExtentPosition= MaxExtentPosition= GunFireAnimationID=7 [internalGun2] SystemType=FIXED_GUN GunTypeName=303CAL_LEWIS_MK2 InputName=FIRE_PRIMARY_GUN GunGroup=2<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< and here? MuzzlePosition=0.00,0.00,1.30 LightPosition=0.00,0.06,1.31 AimAngles=0.0,5.0,0.0 MaxAmmo=97 NumReloads=4 ReloadTime=6.0 EjectShells=TRUE EjectPosition=0.01,-0.68,1.21 EjectVelocity=2.0,0.0,-0.5 MinExtentPosition= MaxExtentPosition= GunFireAnimationID=8 Be kind with your responses, remember, you're dealing with the village idiot when it comes to this stuff.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+kokopelli 0 Posted March 5, 2007 Guys, I know this is probably a stupid observation, since I don't know that much about the 3d modelling of these planes, etc, but the Vickers/Lewis combo works quite well for the SE5a stock plane. Is there any way to mimic its setup in the data ini of a Nieuport? Would that work? Is it the two gun groups that allow this to work? The SE5a uses two gun groups: [internalGun1] SystemType=FIXED_GUN GunTypeName=303CAL_VICKERS_MK1 InputName=FIRE_PRIMARY_GUN GunGroup=1<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< here? MuzzlePosition=-0.16,0.27,0.49 LightPosition=-0.16,0.36,0.50 AimAngles=0.0,5.0,0.0 MaxAmmo=400 EjectShells=TRUE EjectPosition=0.0,-0.17,-0.49 EjectVelocity=0.0,0.0,-1.0 MinExtentPosition= MaxExtentPosition= GunFireAnimationID=7 [internalGun2] SystemType=FIXED_GUN GunTypeName=303CAL_LEWIS_MK2 InputName=FIRE_PRIMARY_GUN GunGroup=2<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< and here? MuzzlePosition=0.00,0.00,1.30 LightPosition=0.00,0.06,1.31 AimAngles=0.0,5.0,0.0 MaxAmmo=97 NumReloads=4 ReloadTime=6.0 EjectShells=TRUE EjectPosition=0.01,-0.68,1.21 EjectVelocity=2.0,0.0,-0.5 MinExtentPosition= MaxExtentPosition= GunFireAnimationID=8 Be kind with your responses, remember, you're dealing with the village idiot when it comes to this stuff.... Hello, and on my first post ever, you have to add SystemName InternalGun2 to the fuselage section of the data.ini I did that and now I have a muzzle blast and tracer convergence but no lewis gun model showing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest capun Posted March 5, 2007 Heck Having gun groups allows you to select either gun or both to fire. You alternatively can set the second gun to the FIRE_SECONDARY_GUN but you can't fire both with the same trigger. So gun groups is the best solution, the game selects both as default. kokopelli That defeats the purpose of having a selectable machine gun that shows up only when selected as a gun pod. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+EmlD 3 Posted March 5, 2007 Hello, and on my first post ever, you have to add SystemName InternalGun2 to the fuselage section of the data.ini I did that and now I have a muzzle blast and tracer convergence but no lewis gun model showing. Hi kokopelli, Heck.. You are tolking about INTERNAL GUNS2.... Yes..this is the way, how we will add a new plane to the game with a different armament, in the end we will have 9 Nieports24 with different armament. But, we are talking about this: we wont a GUN (Lewis) to be like a BOMB or ROCKET, we wont add it through the loadout selection as a GunPod. What we are working for, is to have only 3 planes in the end: N24, N24bis and N27 and it will be possible to choose the different gun armament for it in the LOADOUT menu im hangar (1 Vickers or 1 Lewis, or Vickers/Lewis)! Do you see the difference??? If we work with InternalGun2 (Like by SE5a) we will have 9 equal planes with different armament...but we wont to have only 3 different planes...rgr? Many of you have played the IL2 Sturmowik....and if you wont to replace the 20mm Gun with 30mm gun by BF109-G6, you choose just another gun in the Loadout, but you don't choose another PLANE... So, be patient, we will get it :) EmlD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+peter01 2 Posted March 5, 2007 Hi EmId, If you add extra guns in Il2, you get reduced performance. Will this happen in FE? I like the idea of gunpods but if performance isn't effected, then having different planes seems okay- not 9 though, too many, more like a couple of variations of each - the most common variations. Cheers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+EmlD 3 Posted March 5, 2007 Hi EmId, If you add extra guns in Il2, you get reduced performance. Will this happen in FE? I like the idea of gunpods but if performance isn't effected, then having different planes seems okay- not 9 though, too many, more like a couple of variations of each - the most common variations. Cheers Hi, here is a section of planename_data.ini which responds for the new gun as gunpod: [WingStation] SystemType=WEAPON_STATION InputName=FIRE_SECONDARY_GUN StationID=3 StationGroupID=2 StationType=EXTERNAL AttachmentPosition=0.0,-0.20,0.56 AttachmentAngles=0.0,2.0,0.0 AllowedWeaponClass=GP------------------> GunPod AttachmentType=NATO,FRANCE ModelNodeName= PylonMass=4--------------------------------->This mass will be added to the Plane takeoff weight PylonDragArea=0.00------------------------> This is additional DRAG cosed by the GunPod Seems, that it will influe the the perfomanse. But i don't know, if the pylon is theoretical always attached to the plane, even if the additional GunPod isn't selected....the performance will sink even without a GunPod??? Do the GunPod declared in weapondata.ini (not the pylon in planename_data.ini) has own drag? It has own mass, i am sure: [WeaponData018] TypeName=lewis01 FullName=Lewis mount ModelName=lewis1 Mass=20.000000--------------------------<<<< Diameter=0.100000 Length=1.200000 [...] EmlD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Monty CZ 209 Posted March 5, 2007 PylonMass and PylonDragArea are coefficients for pylon itself (it is there from Strike fighters P1 era where planes have pylons for bombs, rockets, gunpods) if nothing is selected there is no pylon on plane - no performance drop in pylon mass cannot be gunpod mass included - this is in weapondata.ini and will be added when loadout is selected. Hope it helps Monty Hi, here is a section of planename_data.ini which responds for the new gun as gunpod: [WingStation] SystemType=WEAPON_STATION InputName=FIRE_SECONDARY_GUN StationID=3 StationGroupID=2 StationType=EXTERNAL AttachmentPosition=0.0,-0.20,0.56 AttachmentAngles=0.0,2.0,0.0 AllowedWeaponClass=GP------------------> GunPod AttachmentType=NATO,FRANCE ModelNodeName= PylonMass=4--------------------------------->This mass will be added to the Plane takeoff weight PylonDragArea=0.00------------------------> This is additional DRAG cosed by the GunPod Seems, that it will influe the the perfomanse. But i don't know, if the pylon is theoretical always attached to the plane, even if the additional GunPod isn't selected....the performance will sink even without a GunPod??? Do the GunPod declared in weapondata.ini (not the pylon in planename_data.ini) has own drag? It has own mass, i am sure: [WeaponData018] TypeName=lewis01 FullName=Lewis mount ModelName=lewis1 Mass=20.000000--------------------------<<<< Diameter=0.100000 Length=1.200000 [...] EmlD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+EmlD 3 Posted March 5, 2007 Ok, that means, only the mass of additional bomb, rocket or GunPod will have influence on the performance. It won't be a cheating. EmlD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
