F-14 shoots down F-4...

[macelena 1,070]

Well, if those Red-on-Czech happened in 1968, maybe

[+Gepard 10,241]

Well, if those Red-on-Czech happened in 1968, maybe

 

No, it had nothing to do with the "Prague Spring".

It were intercept excercises which went wrong. In the case of the polish pilot  the plane, which was intended for the mission and was armed with training missiles, had had a malefunction. So the plane was changed and the mission was flown with a new MiG. But the new MiG was taken from the QRA and was thatswhy armed with R-3S missiles, not with training rounds. The interception went perfect till to the moment when the pilot pressed the trigger. The missile fired from the rail and scored a perfect hit.

 

The other red to red was also intended as a intercept exercise. The czech MiG-21F13 (S-106) entered a GDR airspace simulating a F-104 pair. So they switched off their friend or foe device (IFF). A soviet ground controller misidentified them as hostile intruders and vectored a pair of soviet MiGs to them, which opend the fire. One czech MiG was hit.

Interestingly the czech pilot did not realized, that he was hit. He thought, that the engine of his plane had a malefunction (Happend relativly often with the first R-11 series). So he tried to restart the engine twice and after that he ejected successfully.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Gepard

[thodouras95 25]

Since I'm not the one who bumped, I can't be blamed :D

 

Well, it doesn't sound like the brightest day for that "Hey Joe" guy.Shouldn't he have thought of it a little better, being granted permission to use live weapons against your own guys isn't really an everyday happening.

[Caesar 305]

"Hey Joe" Parsons was NOT the guy who shot the F-4 down.  He was a Tomcat RIO who knew some of the folks involved.  This was a subject of discussion over at Tomcat-Sunset and Jon asked "Hey Joe" for amplification on the incident back when the subject got brought up here.

[thodouras95 25]

"Hey Joe" Parsons was NOT the guy who shot the F-4 down.  He was a Tomcat RIO who knew some of the folks involved.  This was a subject of discussion over at Tomcat-Sunset and Jon asked "Hey Joe" for amplification on the incident back when the subject got brought up here.

 

well, a bad day for that pilot, then.

[+Swordsman422 61]

If I recall correctly the pilot who did this, Tim Dorsey, got nominated for flag rank last year.

[+Typhoid 231]

He did, but a $h!tstorm of letters served to derail that.

 

My letter to my Senators was just one of thousands.

[JediMaster 451]

It's amazing that his career got that far.

Edited June 23, 2013 by JediMaster

[+Typhoid 231]

It's amazing that his career got that far.

An utter disgrace and insult that his career continued at all.

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

The F-14 pilot was an O-2. Not an O-4. What suprises me is that from what I read he was not given a mental eval. But people do fuck up. In Camp Casey Korea in the early 90's some stupid Lt. fired a 105mm APFSDS-T round at a quarter scale target on post during a dry fire crew proficiency course. Needless to say he never tanked again. People make mistakes even in the "zero defect" U.S. military. He should of been court martialed. Another interesting thing I heard is that the pilot's father was also a Naval Aviator in Vietnam and was involved in a "blue on blue" incident himself!

[Southernap 1]

Long time lurker here. I see a zombie thread with mis-information. I know some people that were on the Staff at higher HQs in the region when this all happened and gave me the basic run down of this incident, without breaking confidence.

 

This happened post Op Prarie Fire and El Drado Canyon and just a few weeks after Libya had shot at SCUD at a USCG LORAN Station on an Italian Island near Malta. So tensions in the region were still high. Add in that around the same time a pair of US Navy ships were rammed by the Soviets while trying to enter the Black Sea in that same year. So let us add that in. Also as part of the increases in 6th Fleet (the US Navy command responsible for the Med) and 2nd Fleet (the Atlantic and Norwegian sea area of operations) participation in Airland Battle 2000 as part of new rules the Navy and USAF were working hard on getting increase interoperability going on. So on this fateful day a RF-4C was tasked to find a carrier in the med. After it took pretty pictures of the carrier, while simulating a TU-16R Recon Badger or a TU-95D Recon Bear. The plan was this specific F-14 pilot was supposed to intercept and treat this aircraft just like a Soviet Naval Aviation (AKA SNA) recon asset at the same time the Anti-Air Warfare commander was later supposed to get training in since the plan was also that this RF-4C was going to simulate an ASCM with another RF-4C acting like a SNA bomber with a cruise missile. The USAF bubbas were briefed these mission profiles. The US Navy got the message and only briefed the F-14s on was the intercept and escort the RF-4C into and out of the carrier bubble of controlled air space after a successful intercept. Later on, it was found during the hearing for a court-martial that the squadron was also trying to get in some Dis-similar Air Combat Maneuvering with the Phantoms if they had the gas for it. All the AAW screen was briefed on was that a USAF asset would be coming in briefed as a RECON asset and the intercept controllers would direct this specific CAP asset towards interception and then escort after a few photos for the crowds the Phantom would break off and simulate an Soviet ASCM asset so they can get some live training in.
Everyone onboard with the story so far? We have two different missions briefed for and a side mission that would be ad hoc.

Okay so two RF-4Cs were planned for and one deck aborted at their home base due to a maintenance issue. The other guy kept with pressing the mission and passed word to AF Command to pass word that they only had one player for the games. Which meant the AAW screen commander was not going to get his drill time in, just the air borne intercept was supposed to go on. Due to issues with messages being passed, the word that only one RF-4C coming out was not passed on to the Carrier Group. So everyone was still thinking that there were players were going to be two. The RF-4C half way through the flight discovers a maintenance issue with his own ECM system and another mission critical system (word was that a couple of the cameras were down). By rules of the games established early on this should have been a divert back home, the USAF guys pushed the issue since they had checked out of 4th Allied TacAF command control with the word and they passed all they were going to do was a photo of the carrier and go home. Nothing else and again word was supposed to be passed but failed to reach all the required ears in time.
On the other side the Navy F-14 pilots involved were only supposed to be flying a CAP mission and then escorting for pretty pictures a RF-4C over the carrier while someone else with a Nikon took a shot of a Navy F-14 banking with a USAF Phantom over a carrier so some civilian can have a cool picture in a book someplace or on their wall. There were supposed to be a couple of other players from the same squadron that were going to get the intercept practice and then practice trying to get ASCM (sorry I forgot to define this earlier, Anti-ship cruise missile) leaker practice in as well. The screen commander (ie the guy in charge of all the small ships that are to protect the carrier) was told the RF-4C was going to fly over get some pictures and then simulate an attack missile after zooming out and coming back in. Mis-communication at the battle group staff level lead to two different missions being briefed at the same time. It comes time for launch and the two players that weren't going to have live missiles deck abort due to issues. The mishap crew in question are coming home and given a chance to do the escort and that is all they are told by the squadron rep in carrier air traffic control. That they are only going out to intercept an RF-4C and escort him across the battle group for pictures of the carrier.
So for those that have studied the idea of "Swiss cheese model" of safety intervention all the holes are aligning here. The primary issue was mis-communication.
So now we have the intercept go on and bam over the battle group radio channel for something called "RED CROWN" (the primary for air defense commander) the interception controller starts to give directions to the F-14 crew and they fly with in range. At which (and confusion still reigns supreme here) someone else comes up and shouts the coded word to live fire. The pilot queried twice to verify and both times the correct word of the day was given to shot. So without thinking he shot. Only after the missile left his rail that the pilot realized what happened when the explosion and ejection beeper occurred. He was instructed to land immediately.
Mishap board convenes and all sorts of big wigs come get involved from SACEUR, NAVEURCOM, USAFE, 6th Fleet, various safety centers. The pilot's father did not, I repeat, did not get involved beyond getting his son the best JAG lawyer that was out there. Otherwise he didn't want to see undue command influence get involved since the father was the commanding officer of Pacific Command at the time. Lawyers look at it all and come up with a deal that would avoid prison and avoid a major scandal since it seems others at 1-star and higher failed their duties in this mishap. So the plan was that this crew would receive a letter of reprimand and the pilot would loose thier wings and transfer to the reserves. This guy was a decent pilot, but a little dangerous and according to a family friend that was on the chop chain for review almost your quintessential "Maverick" style pilot; just needed some seasoning to understand that the flying he was doing was dangerous. The idea was that a LT in the Naval Reserves without his wings would get tired of whatever desk job given and resign or would hide away until it was time for mando-retirement at 30yrs and he would be stuck at LCDR/O-4, at least that was the hope. Instead this guy went back to school and got his law degree and did well as a reserve JAG lawyer to rise up in the ranks. It was only after there was a chance that he was going to screen as Admiral that all this about his past came to light and people started to ask questions again. Add in that the Global War on Terror and the clearing out of leadership that knew this guy's background post 'Hook '91 lead to this guy slipping through the cracks.
 

[busdriver 35]

 

This happened post Op Prarie Fire and El Drado Canyon and just a few weeks after Libya had shot at SCUD at a USCG LORAN Station on an Italian Island near Malta

Those incidents were in April 1986...the RF-4 shootdown Sep 1987. As a former 38TRS guy (81-84), we never planned/flew any NATO exercise as a two-ship. The jets we used for Operation Display Determination in the Med (or Open Gate/Locked Gate for the Atlantic/Med exercises) were equipped with TEREC programmed with USN emitters. We flew at high altitude and transmitted the ELINT via datalink to a portable ground station at our deployed location. Cameras were NOT primary sensors, taking "happy snaps" of the boats were not briefed/planned...if you got them good on ya. The WSO Randy Sprouse (I flew a couple hops with him when he was going thru the RTU/RAG) had a nice long write-up in a Recce newsletter 20 years ago with his POV. It mentioned the F-14 had rejoined on their wing, waved at them, then rolled away. The first indication they had a problem was a violent jolt and two fire lights (with hydraulic systems failures) and a quick decision on a high speed ejection. The irony/humor of the rescue was a Capt coming to check on them in sick bay on the Saratoga. Randy described it as, he told us "we shot you down." as if to mean for the purpose of the exercise. We said, "yeah we know..." To which the Admiral explained, "No...I mean we actually shot you down with a missile."

 

I can't find his article at the moment, but if I do, I'll post it.

 

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57563948/friendly-fire-victim-outraged-over-navy-officers-admiral-promotion/

 

Here's another online write-up http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988-04-18/news/8803090693_1_uss-saratoga-rf-4c-phantom-pilot apparently their TEREC was indeed Tango Uniform.

Edited August 13, 2013 by busdriver

[+Erik 1,731]

That's got to be one of the best bar stories ever, from both sides of the story. 

[busdriver 35]

That's got to be one of the best bar stories ever, from both sides of the story. 

Our wing commander at Zweibrucken had been shot down by his Sqdn Commander way back when he was a new guy in an F-102 unit. This guy..."Big Al, the airman's pal"  http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/Biographies/Display/tabid/225/Article/105898/brigadier-general-albert-l-pruden-jr.aspx

[+Dave 2,318]

After long long thought about this and at first I thought he should hang, I think he has paid his dues. He fucked up but he got to go back in the Navy and made himself a better officer from the looks of it. We all know people who have fucked up worse and still made it through the ranks. He was a young buck back then and had his fangs out, he regrets what he did. He gave no reason at all, except he said he did it. I see this as a case of him making up every single day of his piss poor actions by making sure he was good at intel and was an asset to the Navy. Like he was proving himself all over again. I think his nomination being blocked was BS. Ross flew another 10 years in the AF and 9 as a civie pilot. Now all of sudden his life is ruined? Ross said he forgave Dorsey and Dorsey apoloigized in a letter to him. Ross isnt dead, no one died. It was in 1987, let it go. I think Dorsey made up for his mistakes 10 fold.

[JediMaster 451]

It's a fine line. While I agree he got where he is on merit, and should not have any stupid penalties heaped on him at this point, I'm not sure he deserves a flag rank.

 

You'd need to look at the precedent for others who made it that high and see what mistakes they may have made. Have others been blocked for less? If so, he should be as well. It's like saying a conviction for a misdemeanor shouldn't stop it when someone else was blocked just for an arrest (with on conviction).

 

However, if others have made MORE grievous errors and still been awarded the promotion, then he should too.