Flight Sims......

[+peter01 2]

Now I am taking a break from doing FMs, I'm doing a lot of flying :yes: . Not only FE, but other favorites as well, Bob2, Il2, OFF.

 

Its been interesting, cos, although I'm a FS enthusiast from way back, I wasn't doing FMs until FE. So flying these games again I guess i was evaluating the FMs and the AI, the areas I have spent so much time in recently. And the commonality in Flight Engines and AI modelling, the issues etc, is surprising when you look at it this way, even across ww1 and ww2 games. And while looking around forums for these games (downloads, catching up), there are of course many discussions on these things within the game forums, and comparisons with other games.

 

Should say firstly these are my own opions and if you disagree, you could well be right. And I am biased of course.

 

And all the above games are just fantastic - but in different ways. Bob2 is amazing - developed for gamers, rather than just as a game, Il2 - very appreciative of the attention to the FMs for such a large number of planes and many of them, well - WOW, an epic work, OFF - a talented team produced a real gem thru a labour of love.

 

So my view:

 

Game Engine (ya know, that part driving FMs and AI, with real life modelling, engine management and cool stuff like torque takeoff, animations etc)

 

1. Bob2 and Il2 about equal, in different ways

2. FE (quite good, inc. torque, animations, downside is stress modelling and engine start ups)

3. OFF (basically limited by CFS3, but has a few things FE doesn't - eg, stress modelling, some engine mangement, engine gravity effects, takeoffs/landings etc are good)

 

Flight Model

 

 

1 Bob2

2 Il2 - but because of the large number of planes, you could on that basis rate it as no #1

3. FE

4. OFF

 

Its a little unfair to rate ww2 vs ww1, as ww2 is far easier to do - easier game engine. For ww1, all the quirks, and forces would have been far more pronounced. And all game engines have trouble doing this, so the easier a plane is to fly, the more realistically a flight model can simulate that (for AI as well), tho it may be more complex and time consuming to do eg jets - and I'm not talking engine management, radar, missiles etc all that is the game engine itself, above.

 

So, ww2. say about equal. Individually, Bob2, but on number Il2, and many Il2 FMs are really very very good too.

 

WW1, FE by a margin IMHO. The OFF FMs are probably as good as the developers could do, but each plane fundamentally is very much the same. And the feel of the planes is a bit ...well, bland to me. This is true too of FE, but less so, maybe because the flight engine is more sophisticated than CFS3, animations, torque, rudder (eg, never saw decent rudder in any OFF plane, all push back too much, no flat turns, and no induced roll, hence all the same)

 

AI (or more specifically, the dogfighting. More generally, wingmen, bombing etc, it is a lot harder to compare but obviously thats very important too)

 

1 FE and Bob2

2 Il2

3 OFF

 

FEs AI are now very tough - they may not be as sophisticated as say Bob2 though. And if you take the wider meaning of AI - wingmen, bombing, formations etc, Bob2 would win IMO.

 

Ai is not a strong point in Il2, at least not in dogfighting (funny combination of either too weak, or too good!). In OFF its a definite weakness across the board, tho it depends at times on which plane and whether its campaigns or QC - but overall, IMO its worse than the original FE AI.

 

Should say, tho OFF doesn't come out too well in the above assessment, I'm just looking at a few aspects, but I like the game very much anyhow!!! Its got heaps of atmosphere, campaigns are great, terrain is superb, so its a toss up say between FE and OFF. But just for dogfights, missions, even flying around (the cfs3 engine!), variety and numbers of planes (about 3 times as many in FE, models are better, cockpits too I think) FE is easily best. The 2 games are, simply put, just quite different.

 

Now, don't mean to really get into Sim flame wars here, as i said these are actually my favourite games, I play them all, wouldn't give up any of them. But have read so much stuff in other forums, and like I said just feel I have different perspective on some of this, due to doing FMs and grappling with the issues in doing them (not necessarily correct!! or the same as others views), and since I generally post here, thought I post these thoughts here too.

 

Interested in what others playing FE or the other games think too.

Edited September 26, 2007 by peter01

[ShrikeHawk 384]

I have played all these too. And like them all too for different reasons.

 

But I have to say that I like the thirdwire series best. And that's for the same

reason that I liked CFS2 so much...mods. The thirdwire series has an

extraordinarily active group of modders. And it is easily modded by the

individual with even a small amount of knowledge. That's what hooks me

the most. I easily spend as much time fiddling with the game as I do flying

it!

 

I think IL2 has better graphics and better FMs. But the FM gap has closed a

lot because of Peter's efforts. I would say that IL2 is superior overall , but because

it is too tightly controlled in the mod area is simply isn't as FUN.

 

OFF2 has a great environmental feel. I love that. I like being able to easily set up

a combat two specific types of planes. That's not possible in FE. You have to create

the mission and that takes more time. But then again I like the randomness sometimes.

I don't quite know who will show up! hehehe. But I don't like the feel of the FMs in

OFF2. That's not necessarily their fault, being limited to the CFS3 engine.

 

Even though FE has flaws that are addressed better in other sims, I'm still happiest

with FE and WoE where I am free to tinker as much as fly. And I can't be happier

to have a respectable WW1 sim again. *Bliss* This is where the flying is pure flying.

No keyboard drills here. Just get on the tail of your opponent (not "enemy" as in later

decades) as shoot! hehehe.

[gambit168 27]

Hi Guys

I also have all 4 titles, but for me only FE is very Moorish, cos i can be flying along and in idea will come to do something , whatever make a new inline sound for the plane that just flew past me , or try and make the plane that just went in go terminal cos it just didn't pickup enough speed to be pilot less, so many things u can spot and in a flash you've alt tab'd and yer changing things , only down side is , i have so many changes that work well , that i don't remember what i did , or where so i cant share them , till i re find um!!!!!!!

 

Bob2 was great but i always seemed 2 be alone in a sky full of 109s all on my tail , no idea where my flight, sqn ,air force, went LOL

loved the wars in hyper lobby for all the il2 series , but didn't get 1946 , so couldn't join same servers as the guys i flew with

OFF phase 1 i liked but the AI was poor , i kinda found myself looking for something but i didn't know wot

like a racing game after 10 minutes I'm going round the track the wrong way to see how many cars i can wreck

Off phase 2 kills my cfs3 install at about 90% every time , lost interest in trying 2 get a proper install

I fully loved the terrain in WOW, so much going on in that game trains boats truck convoys and no frame hits!!!

 

I think the secret is if it ain't got the best multi player in the world , then it better be the best at something Big like Modding, because both require a community, and the community spirit is what keeps you alive,long after most have faded from memory :yes:

 

& on that note , i must say I'm still waiting for planes for IL2 , like, sunderland, hudson, lizzy, anson, etc. but they give us 3 new ju87's and 3 new yak 9's so best MP still isn't Everything

So any Thiredwire wins hands down , & FE for me, cos if theres something on yer wish list , it wont be 2long before its on yer hardrive

[JediMaster 451]

I never got BoB2, but I have the others. Well, almost. I've still only got OFF1 installed. Haven't had the chance to do OFF2 yet, but that's because I've flown it so little. I've spent a lot more time in FE than in OFF just because I know someone with FE and we fly it MP. Solo-wise I've done about the same with both.

 

For WWII, I have Il-2 and CFS3 installed, but again I never fly either offline, just MP. Since the guy I flew CFS3 with no longer has it installed, it means I've not touched it in months. When I fly props, it's Il-2, but it's not frequent.

[BUFF 8]

interesting post & comparing the size of the development teams involved ThirdWire obviously come out as punching above their weight.

[Norman Prince 0]

Now I am taking a break from doing FMs, I'm doing a lot of flying :yes: . Not only FE, but other favorites as well, Bob2, Il2, OFF.

 

Its been interesting, cos, although I'm a FS enthusiast from way back, I wasn't doing FMs until FE. So flying these games again I guess i was evaluating the FMs and the AI, the areas I have spent so much time in recently. And the commonality in Flight Engines and AI modelling, the issues etc, is surprising when you look at it this way, even across ww1 and ww2 games. And while looking around forums for these games (downloads, catching up), there are of course many discussions on these things within the game forums, and comparisons with other games.

 

Should say firstly these are my own opions and if you disagree, you could well be right. And I am biased of course.

 

And all the above games are just fantastic - but in different ways. Bob2 is amazing - developed for gamers, rather than just as a game, Il2 - very appreciative of the attention to the FMs for such a large number of planes and many of them, well - WOW, an epic work, OFF - a talented team produced a real gem thru a labour of love.

 

So my view:

 

Game Engine (ya know, that part driving FMs and AI, with real life modelling, engine management and cool stuff like torque takeoff, animations etc)

 

1. Bob2 and Il2 about equal, in different ways

2. FE (quite good, inc. torque, animations, downside is stress modelling and engine start ups)

3. OFF (basically limited by CFS3, but has a few things FE doesn't - eg, stress modelling, some engine mangement, engine gravity effects, takeoffs/landings etc are good)

 

Flight Model

 

 

1 Bob2

2 Il2 - but because of the large number of planes, you could on that basis rate it as no #1

3. FE

4. OFF

 

Its a little unfair to rate ww2 vs ww1, as ww2 is far easier to do - easier game engine. For ww1, all the quirks, and forces would have been far more pronounced. And all game engines have trouble doing this, so the easier a plane is to fly, the more realistically a flight model can simulate that (for AI as well), tho it may be more complex and time consuming to do eg jets - and I'm not talking engine management, radar, missiles etc all that is the game engine itself, above.

 

So, ww2. say about equal. Individually, Bob2, but on number Il2, and many Il2 FMs are really very very good too.

 

WW1, FE by a margin IMHO. The OFF FMs are probably as good as the developers could do, but each plane fundamentally is very much the same. And the feel of the planes is a bit ...well, bland to me. This is true too of FE, but less so, maybe because the flight engine is more sophisticated than CFS3, animations, torque, rudder (eg, never saw decent rudder in any OFF plane, all push back too much, no flat turns, and no induced roll, hence all the same)

 

AI (or more specifically, the dogfighting. More generally, wingmen, bombing etc, it is a lot harder to compare but obviously thats very important too)

 

1 FE and Bob2

2 Il2

3 OFF

 

FEs AI are now very tough - they may not be as sophisticated as say Bob2 though. And if you take the wider meaning of AI - wingmen, bombing, formations etc, Bob2 would win IMO.

 

Ai is not a strong point in Il2, at least not in dogfighting (funny combination of either too weak, or too good!). In OFF its a definite weakness across the board, tho it depends at times on which plane and whether its campaigns or QC - but overall, IMO its worse than the original FE AI.

 

Should say, tho OFF doesn't come out too well in the above assessment, I'm just looking at a few aspects, but I like the game very much anyhow!!! Its got heaps of atmosphere, campaigns are great, terrain is superb, so its a toss up say between FE and OFF. But just for dogfights, missions, even flying around (the cfs3 engine!), variety and numbers of planes (about 3 times as many in FE, models are better, cockpits too I think) FE is easily best. The 2 games are, simply put, just quite different.

 

Now, don't mean to really get into Sim flame wars here, as i said these are actually my favourite games, I play them all, wouldn't give up any of them. But have read so much stuff in other forums, and like I said just feel I have different perspective on some of this, due to doing FMs and grappling with the issues in doing them (not necessarily correct!! or the same as others views), and since I generally post here, thought I post these thoughts here too.

 

Interested in what others playing FE or the other games think too.

 

Well I appreciate your comments. The one thing not modeled in WW1 flight sims because of the difficulty was enviromental factors. Visiablity, cold, oil spray from some engines, and strategy to combat these difficulties and use them to your advantage. This was a primary factor in flying in WW1 and also the ability of many of the aces to tweak their engines for better performance. CSF3 did try to address these issues by giving pilots certain attributes such a G tolerance or better endurance. A veteran should have the ability to increase certain attributes but they should also decrease with fatigue and stress.

A jet flight sim of interest would be Falcon 4 mod Free Falcon. This was a sim worked on hard by some dedicated people with aeronautical backgrounds that allowed for an accurerate flight models. The problem with this sim is the flight models were so accurerate that it was as hard to master as flying these Jets for real. This was a work in progress and there was bugs that were continually being upgraded. Its difficulty made it not always popular with sim people looking for an easier flight sim. But it scored high enough that a comercial game was produced. The free Falcon was more extensive then the comercial product and the company has tried to take it off the internet. So if you want to try a realistic Jet flight sim, you need to get an old Falcon 4 disk and download the mod (be prepared the game once uncondensed is about 9 Gigs). Keep up the geat work.

Norman Prince (Flight pioneer and combat pilot).