ww2 planes for First Eagles?

[Uriah 1]

Lots of the WW2 modes for SF is very 'old' and I did not care for the fact that the planes would hardly go into a proper stall/spin. Well, TK fixed all that with the FE expansion pack. With all the other updates it might be nice to have a spit1a and a 109e modeled just for fun. I did find that I could get all the WW2 options (like raise and lower landing gear) to work in FE by modifying various files.

[+Gepard 10,230]

For test reasons i use a FW-190 when i make a WWI terrain. Its nice.

[Uriah 1]

Gepard,

 

sorry I have not replied for a while. I would very much like to have your FW 190. I assume that you have updated it with the new flight model capabilities the FE allows. Regardless, it would be fun to try.

 

Uriah

[+Baltika 84]

Hi there,

 

I am also very interested in the new FM possibilities FE offers for WW2 birds, and have been trying to play around with some settings to get things going. However, I am having some cockpit clipping issues which I can't resolve. I have played around with the NearClip settings in FlightEngine.ini, but I can't get rid of these ugly artefacts in the Hurri 2c pit:-

 

 

 

Any ideas how to get rid of these?

 

It seems that from what peter01 is saying about how the flight engine differs between WoI and Fe Exp pack 1, presumably due to the differences in modelling props vs jets, that FE post expansion pack is probably the natural home for the WW2 mods. I appreciate a lot of FM work would be required to take advantage of the changes, in particular in relation to stalling characteristics. Right now, I'm just trying to get a dedicated WW2 FE install up and running for testing.

 

Gepard, do you make any changes to the FW-190 you use, or do you just use a WW1 era pit?

 

Cheers for any pointers,

 

Baltika

 

(Oh, and OT, your terrain tutorials are magnificent. IMHO, they represent one of the most significant advances for community modding that we have seen. Thanks very much for teaching all of us terrain newbies how to do it )

Edited March 13, 2008 by Baltika

[+peter01 2]

Hi Baltika,

 

On the Flight Engine stuff, you are on the right track. But...

 

You should use WOI for WW2, not FE. Reasons:

 

- the Flight Engine is the same (its the FMs that are different, you can do the FMs any way you want)

- FE is probably a reduced version of WOI, possibly much of the code is commented out. I'm guessing this, as biplanes require very effecient code to render smoothly - they are angular with bits and pieces sticking out in all sorts of ways, unlike jets. And you would need some stuff that may not work in FE - radar, flaps, you have jets etc etc.

- TK may not continue supporting FE for too long. I doubt its a big money earner, and it does require a lot of extra work. Who knows, but your safer with WOI.

 

But as I said you are on the right track about the FMs, IMO.

 

I guess the current WW2 mods were developed from TKs jet sims, before FE. I have looked at some WW2 FMs, and my view is that much that is done in FE (pre EP as well) is far more suitable for WW2.

 

And you are right that the new Flight Engine, and many aspects of the FMs done by TK for FE are very suitable for WW2. Actually, the new Flight Engine is superb for prop planes. Really superb. You get a lot of feel and a lots of motion. The difficulty in FE with the new FMs is that the motion is done in very sensitive way thru necessity, and its making it hard to do FMs. But for WW2 planes, they don't need to be so sensitive, they should be be smoother/aerodynamically streamlined. It would be easier, and work very well.

 

Cheers

Edited March 13, 2008 by peter01

[+p10ppy 2]

Guessing a little

And it has nothing to do with the FE addon, so if it worked pre-addon I have no idea

 

Looks like both the external and internal cockpit frames are showing

 

Try playing with either the OpenCockpit=TRUE in the cockpit.ini (never was sure what this actually does to be honest)

 

Or tagging the exterior models cockpit frame mesh in the Data.ini with a ShowFromCockpit=FALSE, you may need to add a new Component to do that but it should work

 

clip distance is a pretty coarse way of dealing with it but if all else fails you may be able to get ExternalClipDistMin=xx or InternalClipDistMin=xx in the cockpit.ini to work

 

normally in FE these things would be parented to the external cockpit node in max and HideExternalNodeName=cockpit in the cockpit.ini would sort it

 

I’d start with the ShowFromCockpit in the data ini if you haven't got the max model to check the hierarchy

 

hope that helps

As to FMs

WW2 is alot closer to WW1 than jets imho

[+Jug 99]

Guessing a little

And it has nothing to do with the FE addon, so if it worked pre-addon I have no idea

 

Looks like both the external and internal cockpit frames are showing

 

Try playing with either the OpenCockpit=TRUE in the cockpit.ini (never was sure what this actually does to be honest)

 

Or tagging the exterior models cockpit frame mesh in the Data.ini with a ShowFromCockpit=FALSE, you may need to add a new Component to do that but it should work

 

clip distance is a pretty coarse way of dealing with it but if all else fails you may be able to get ExternalClipDistMin=xx or InternalClipDistMin=xx in the cockpit.ini to work

 

normally in FE these things would be parented to the external cockpit node in max and HideExternalNodeName=cockpit in the cockpit.ini would sort it

 

I’d start with the ShowFromCockpit in the data ini if you haven't got the max model to check the hierarchy

 

hope that helps

As to FMs

WW2 is alot closer to WW1 than jets imho

 

Anybody think TK might have in mind a WWII playground? It is the only missing part of his kit. Wouldn't that be sweet and a real reward to the modders out there who have produced such quality WWII stuff.

[Gr.Viper 131]

He'd have to compete with Il-2 series... kinda tough for one man operation.

[+Tailspin 3]

TK has always said he's not interested in doing WWII. There is already enough WWII stuff out there to make the sim. All that's really needed is fine tuning the FMs. I think WOI is probably the better platform for the reasons Peter mentioned. The aircraft components and all the things that accompany them in the sim, like sounds etc., are very similar to jets and already "activated" and working in WOI.

[+Baltika 84]

Thanks for the tips, everyone.

 

Interesting discussion. Obviously time to take the plunge into WoI as well

 

One thing which FE does very well in campaign mode, and which I can't force in in SFP1/WoV/WoE no matter how hard I try, is throw up massive fighter furballs routinely. TK has made some interesting points on the TW boards recently about how the campaign supply variables etc affect size of missions units send out, but I still can't get say, a dozen Nates or Emils escorting the corresponding bomber formations.

 

Charles' ww2 formations mod is great at producing large numbers of bombers in campaign, and works fine in single mission mode for fighter flights (a dozen planes on either side, easy), but for some reason I can only get a couple, or three fighters as escorts in campaign. Whereas, in FE, in campaign mode, you'll often run into whole Jastas out on the prowl. That, too, is much more suited to the WW2 era.

 

Just something else to throw into the mix.

 

Sadly, RL is eating my time just now, but I'll keep at it.

 

Cheers all

[+Baltika 84]

Guessing a little

And it has nothing to do with the FE addon, so if it worked pre-addon I have no idea

 

Looks like both the external and internal cockpit frames are showing

 

Try playing with either the OpenCockpit=TRUE in the cockpit.ini (never was sure what this actually does to be honest)

 

Or tagging the exterior models cockpit frame mesh in the Data.ini with a ShowFromCockpit=FALSE, you may need to add a new Component to do that but it should work

 

clip distance is a pretty coarse way of dealing with it but if all else fails you may be able to get ExternalClipDistMin=xx or InternalClipDistMin=xx in the cockpit.ini to work

 

normally in FE these things would be parented to the external cockpit node in max and HideExternalNodeName=cockpit in the cockpit.ini would sort it

 

I’d start with the ShowFromCockpit in the data ini if you haven't got the max model to check the hierarchy

 

hope that helps

As to FMs

WW2 is alot closer to WW1 than jets imho

 

 

Success

 

Thanks very much for pointing the way, p10ppy

 

I had no success with tagging the [CANOPY] in the _data.ini as ShowFromCockpit=FALSE. However, following up your comments re the _cockpit.ini, I noticed the Hurri _cockpit.ini was missing these three lines when compared to the DR7:-

 

HideExternalNodeName=cockpit

OpenCockpit=TRUE

ExternalClipDistMin=0.05

 

I simply copied those lines from the DR7 into the Hurri, et voila:-

 

 

Incidentally, I changed OpenCockpit= to FALSE for the Hurri, but it appeared to make no difference either way. Strange.

 

 

Now, this looks a lot more like a scramble scene from BoB:-

 

 

 

I have done nothing to the stock Hurri FM, and I can still stand on my tail and climb at an unsustainable rate - for a while, but, unlike behaviour from previous iterations, I will eventually fall into a stall, just slowly. And, I have put my Hurri into an uncontrollable spin simply by flinging it about a bit, behaviour which I have not been able to recreate in v083006 of SFP1.

 

Also, takeoff seemed a bit more tricky than in v083006.

 

All this in pre-EP FE. Early days yet, but it seems that even as they stand now, the WW2 FMs give more back thanks to the improved Flight Engine in FE, as peter01 suggested.

 

Next up:-

 

Get some 109s and Ju-88s in there, and see how many escorts turn up for an intercept mission. And import some WW2 weapons, of course.

 

Cheers all.

Edited March 14, 2008 by Baltika

[+Baltika 84]

I am, quite simply, astonished.

 

Got the 109s working, and imported guns all round. In single missions, furballs with 16 a side, and I have been cut to pieces every single time, flying Hurris. Not an experience I am used to from SFP1/WoV/WoE.

 

Will have to try Spits to try to get a kill

[Uriah 1]

I am puzzeled a bit.

 

Does the new WOI have the proper stall/spin that the FE with the expansion pack have? And if so that leads to the next question, can a prop plane be created and used in WOI?

[+Tailspin 3]

Interesting Baltika. So I guess all the code for things like flaps, gear, and such is working. Looks like the sound files are present too. It'll be interesting to see how the upcoming patch will work with existing WWII installs.

 

Yes, Uriah, spins are present in WOI and yes you can fly prop planes in WOI. I was flying a C-47 around a little the other day trying to adapt it to the bomber role used by the Egyptian Air Force. Actually spins (at least those nasty flat spins) have always been possible and were present in some jet aircraft (depending on the model and modeler) before FE. It was just that you may not have always spun when you should have and spin recovery techniques didn't work properly.

[+Baltika 84]

Interesting Baltika. So I guess all the code for things like flaps, gear, and such is working. Looks like the sound files are present too. It'll be interesting to see how the upcoming patch will work with existing WWII installs.

 

Yup, it's all there. The AI planes handle all that fine - wheel brakes off, open throttle, take off, gear up, flaps up. The default controlset ( . . .Controls/default.ini ) in FE has the restricted controls which are relevant to WW1 birds only, and won't let you define any others. I got round that by taking my customised control .ini file from SFP1 (set up for my Hotas Cougar) and renaming it Default.ini, and dropping it into the FE/Controls/ folder, overwriting the FE default. Then everything works fine. Don't mess with the FE customise page afterwards, or it will knock you back to the default FE control list.

 

On further flights, the Emils are showing slightly odd behaviour at times, slewing around the sky a bit - I think it's to do with the fact that AI rudder control has been bumped up a bit for FE.

 

OTOH, give the FE AI an Emil to play with, and it's a vicious beastie that's darn hard to get off your tail, and will defy your attempts to evade. Tenacious. And kind of trigger happy, in a sneaky snapshot kind of way. Sees a half chance, goes for it, and gets you more often than not. Mean.

 

Roll on the patches - but in the meantime, I've got my excuse to buy WoI

Edited March 14, 2008 by Baltika

[Uriah 1]

Ah, good to hear!

 

I will wait on WOI until some one makes a few WWII planes for it WITH the new fm that FE/WOI has. Am I right in thinking that just importing an old WW2 plane modeled on the Strike Fighters or whatever will not have the proper stall/spin or does the new capabilities of WOI just handle that just fine? A minor thing - most sims do not model 'prop wash' correctly, they all act like the thrust and air flow is coming from the tail - like a jet. Result is that if you go into a steep climb, cut the engine and wait for the near stall that then max the engine you do not get the 'whip' affect of the air flow created by the prop - so you don't get that nice quick turn some fighter pilots did in WW2.

[Guest capun]

DId you read TK's comment about the AIData in the planes data ini file?

 

TK's Comments

 

We have been using the AIData section, but the others we did not know about it. It opens up some possibilites for more tuning.

[+Baltika 84]

Hi capun,

 

Thanks for the link. I think you pointed out something similar waaaay back at the start of the BoB campaign feedback thread, for AI bombers, but I didn't appreciate the flexibility of the technique. As I said, I haven't done anything to the "stock" _data.ini for the WW2 birds, and I note that Russo's Emil does not implement the individual a/c AI settings you mention. It seems, then, that the FE stock AI is a significant improvement over that in v083006. And I am running Pre-EP FE. As you say, it opens up further possibilities for tweaking individual a/c.

 

 

Uriah,

 

I don't [yet] have WoI or the FE EP, so I can't comment on whether the improved stalls work on "stock" WW2 FMs. Likewise with prop wash, although I have been trying to do a "proper" stall turn in FE with my Hurri, w/o much luck. There seems to be a fine line between staying "within the envelope" and falling into an unrecoverable spin. I suppose that is where the tweaking for the new FM comes in.

 

I don't think I'll start messing with that until I get WoI and I can check this out on the latest and greatest version. I'll hopefull get a chance to do that over the w/end.

 

Cheers all.

[+Tailspin 3]

Ah, good to hear!

 

I will wait on WOI until some one makes a few WWII planes for it WITH the new fm that FE/WOI has. Am I right in thinking that just importing an old WW2 plane modeled on the Strike Fighters or whatever will not have the proper stall/spin or does the new capabilities of WOI just handle that just fine? A minor thing - most sims do not model 'prop wash' correctly, they all act like the thrust and air flow is coming from the tail - like a jet. Result is that if you go into a steep climb, cut the engine and wait for the near stall that then max the engine you do not get the 'whip' affect of the air flow created by the prop - so you don't get that nice quick turn some fighter pilots did in WW2.

 

 

Thrust position is a variable controlled in the Engine section of the aircraft data.ini. Might be wrong but I don't think propwash and its effect on control surfaces is modeled.

[+peter01 2]

DId you read TK's comment about the AIData in the planes data ini file?

 

TK's Comments

 

We have been using the AIData section, but the others we did not know about it. It opens up some possibilites for more tuning.

 

Thanks for the heads up capun. It is interesting, and does open up more opportunities in AI tuning and variety. TKs AI are becoming wonderfully versatile, capable opponents.