Problem with Soviet Air-To-Air Weapons

[Fida 0]

I am facing great difficulties while flying Soviet aircrafts.The hit rate of Soviet missiles is less then 30% against modern US aircrafts.So gun has become my only weapon.How can I kill US aircrafts with Soviet missiles?

Edited April 2, 2008 by Fida

[Caesar 305]

R-73M2 is your best bet. Also, what sim are you playing, SF/WoV/WoE/WoI? In WoI the missiles have more realistic envelopes. Even an all-aspect missile will have problems if you're at the limits of its envelope, unlike earlier games where you're pretty much guaranteed a hit.

[+Dave 2,318]

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showtopic=24967

 

Good thread to read.

[kukulino 1]

I am facing great difficulties while flying Soviet aircrafts.The hit rate of Soviet missiles is less then 30% against modern US aircrafts.So gun has become my only weapon.How can I kill US aircrafts with Soviet missiles?

Well, it is not easy hit modern US plane with older soviet missile (I mean here R-3S or RS-2US loaded on Mig-21). Espetially if your target is equiped with chaffs/flares and jammers + if target has good manoeuvrability. As Caesar wrote try modern missiles: R-73M1/M2 or R-77, R-60TM for example.

 

As USAFMTL noted above, follow that link. No exactly values for missiles there are not posted for this time. Still working on it. When will be some missiles ready, will be posted there for test. :yes:

Edited April 2, 2008 by kukulino

[Stick 773]

Russian missiles are for a fact notoriously innaccurate.

Compare the weight of a russian missile to a western counterpart.You will find its as much as twice or even four times as heavy. I dont think that translates into great performance.

The R-73 and 77 are the new breed and have improved reliablity and accuracy. But dont use the same tactics as you you would with an AMRAAM or Sidewinder.

[+Brain32 265]

Russian missiles are for a fact notoriously innaccurate.

Compare the weight of a russian missile to a western counterpart.You will find its as much as twice or even four times as heavy. I dont think that translates into great performance.

The R-73 and 77 are the new breed and have improved reliablity and accuracy. But dont use the same tactics as you you would with an AMRAAM or Sidewinder.

 

Which fact? Because I saw none and I did do many reading on the subject...

While earlier Russian missiles were behind in technology this started changing in the 80's and today I really, REALLY hope, our(thinking through NATO sunglasses here) AF's do not underestimate moder Russian military technology which is being exported throughout the world.

Also Russians have a different doctrine to missile fights and I do not believe this was exploited by foreign nations that used/use their weapons.

Instead of concetrating on one missile=good hit probability, they are into salvos. This is why you have "R" versions and "T" versions, take for example R-27 they will fire R-27R(radar guided) and R-27T(heat seaking) simultianiously at the same target giving it one hell of a time trying to evade BOTH of them. Also R-73 and R-77 are kick-ass top notch tecnology missiles make no mistake about that

 

Anyway about in-game, jul06 wep pack seems to be more oriented towards gameplay, the "phisical"(maxG,launchG,seeker FOV, guidance type etc.) values are set dead accurate to what I could find on SOV missiles, but their noise and even more so CM rejections were set extremely low(for example R-73 had worse CM rejecton than RedTopIR or maybe Firestreak I can't remember now), you could practically fly strait, pop a flare and a chaff and take a flight of AI Su27's like clay pigeons since your missiles had almost an impunity even against CM equipped planes.

 

After WOI came out, when I was converting jul06WP to WOI, I adjusted values for modern Russian missiles (R-73/R-27's/R-77) and now the game is much more interesting, I actually have to evade poping decoys like mad to try to evade attack coming from a flight of Su-27's and sometimes...I just don't make it

[+drdoyo 2]

I concur with your assessment Brain32!

 

I think we all need to get over the "we're better than them" attitudes/perceptions. while soviet technology did lag for many years, they have been making up for it in the last decade plus. The Austrailians are worried about the purchase of the Super Hornet while faceing the SU-30MKII for good reason. Not to mention other areas of Soviet technology such as the submarine. In the 90s the Soviet Navy fielded the Akula class which is modern and on par with US subs for being quiet.

[kukulino 1]

It is neverendig story about Soviet vs Nato missiles capabilities. What I thing is that real informations are still secret.

 

But we have topic about missiles as you know: http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...mp;#entry146581

Brain32, can you share with some your missiles values there? With R-3S for example But if it is just for your personal use, no problem accept it, of course :yes:

 

Soviet A2A weps pack idea is make more balanced missiles capabilities and make game for fun and enjoy for red side arcrafts fans too. Relatively close to reality. But what is reality? Official informations? Or underground informations? Official statistics? Not easy find middle way. And impossible find legendary "veritas".

 

New patch is needed for new missiles datas according WOI. As I heard, Lima is not so deadly there :yes: After patch we will have better conditions for missile data revising than now.

Edited April 3, 2008 by kukulino

[Stick 773]

Which fact? Because I saw none and I did do many reading on the subject...

While earlier Russian missiles were behind in technology this started changing in the 80's and today I really, REALLY hope, our(thinking through NATO sunglasses here) AF's do not underestimate moder Russian military technology which is being exported throughout the world.

Also Russians have a different doctrine to missile fights and I do not believe this was exploited by foreign nations that used/use their weapons.

Instead of concetrating on one missile=good hit probability, they are into salvos. This is why you have "R" versions and "T" versions, take for example R-27 they will fire R-27R(radar guided) and R-27T(heat seaking) simultianiously at the same target giving it one hell of a time trying to evade BOTH of them. Also R-73 and R-77 are kick-ass top notch tecnology missiles make no mistake about that

 

Anyway about in-game, jul06 wep pack seems to be more oriented towards gameplay, the "phisical"(maxG,launchG,seeker FOV, guidance type etc.) values are set dead accurate to what I could find on SOV missiles, but their noise and even more so CM rejections were set extremely low(for example R-73 had worse CM rejecton than RedTopIR or maybe Firestreak I can't remember now), you could practically fly strait, pop a flare and a chaff and take a flight of AI Su27's like clay pigeons since your missiles had almost an impunity even against CM equipped planes.

 

After WOI came out, when I was converting jul06WP to WOI, I adjusted values for modern Russian missiles (R-73/R-27's/R-77) and now the game is much more interesting, I actually have to evade poping decoys like mad to try to evade attack coming from a flight of Su-27's and sometimes...I just don't make it

 

With the R77 i agree but our airforce for one has abandoned the AA-10 Alamo. We are looking to integrate French missiles on our Russian aircraft. The fact is Russian missiles are so darn heavy. I mean some of their missiles weigh more than the Phoenix. And have quarter the range. And half of all their claims are boasts. If you saw the first batch of Flankers that came into India, close up, you would also agree that NATO or for that matter Western estimates of Russian aircraft and weapons are not so completely unfounded.

 

I'll also agree with you that the Iraqi's didn't know how to handle Russian equipment but what about the Yugoslavians? Or even us for that matter. We carried through the Kargil War with our Mirages. Not our Floggers or Fishbeds;let alone whatever missiles or ground attack weaponry they were using

[MigBuster 2,861]

It is neverendig story about Soviet vs Nato missiles capabilities. What I thing is that real informations are still secret.

 

 

It sure is - US missiles certainly have a lot more exposed real world usage to draw conclusions upon. The performance of Soviet missiles exported to client states was reportedly very poor - but then again were these versions just exported crap, were the pilots not trained, what was the environment they were flying in etc

 

 

Here is a recent poor R-27 performance write up on the 1998 - 2000 war (Eritrea Vs Ethiopia)

 

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_189.shtml

 

again can't vouch for the validness of the info but it was an interesting read.

 

 

Will add that the Germans had some Archers to go with their Mig 29s after the end of the Cold War - and they were evaluated as being amazing.

The ASRAAM program was started up to "catch up" with the archer R-73 according to this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-132_ASRAAM

Edited April 3, 2008 by CoolHand29

[+NeverEnough 78]

I just came across a great article on current Russian missile technology, which might be helpful on adjusting the capability levels.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-BVR-AAM.html

 

Very interesting read, and I would be less likely to dismiss modern Russian air to air missle technology after reading this!

[+Brain32 265]

Weeee don't know where to start

Well...

 

But we have topic about missiles as you know: http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...mp;&do=findComment&comment=146581

Brain32, can you share with some your missiles values there? With R-3S for example

Yes I actually got interested in all that missile thing thx to that thread, I've read tons of pages about nearly all missiles we have in-game, but primarly concentrated on US and Russian missiles.

 

The thing is, since I have WOI, I used it as a baseline and applied all original values from WOI to jul06, so I basically only "played" around with R-60MK(representing upgraded all-aspect M), R-27's,R-73's and R-77, all of my other values are a simple copy-paste from WOI including western weapons.

What I based my changes on was reading info and adjusting as needed, for example to make AIM-9M, I copied L's data and read what it said about M, if it said "upgraded CCM" I upped CM rejection values and so on and so on all the way up to AIM-9X.

Also don't think I just boosted Russian stuff up high ridiculously, for example R-27R still has worse characteristics than AIM-7M, but not much, it's about as good as AIM-7F, it's a serious threat you atleast have to do something to deal with it, not just flying strait with ECM on

However R-73M2 is quite close to AIM-9x/IRIS-T/ASRAAM and are a really scary threat, R-77 too.

Also no missile I've adjusted has 100% CM rejection because that seems really too much, when I see official info saying "Our missile can not be fooled by anything" from Rytheon itself then I may believe it lol

 

@Kukulino if you are interested in data I've changed for modern soviet missiles I can post it tommorow

 

Anyway guys this site is a great source for US weapons: http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/index.html

 

 

Now that I've sorted through the game related stuff...

 

The fact is Russian missiles are so darn heavy. I mean some of their missiles weigh more than the Phoenix. And have quarter the range. And half of all their claims are boasts. If you saw the first batch of Flankers that came into India, close up, you would also agree that NATO or for that matter Western estimates of Russian aircraft and weapons are not so completely unfounded.

 

And probably good that you did however AA-10 has many variants and subvariants, and from what I've read about Russian export they do not quite send the best stuff up, not so long ago I've read an article about them sending a series of aircraft(can't remember which, mig or su) that had horrible finish and in one case of some African country they sent really old overhauled airplanes instead of the brand new factory fresh ones.

Also one good (future)example is Su-35BM, which will be made for export only, however Russian version is called Su-27M2 and the difference is not small, Su-27M2 will have better radar, better engines, smaller RCS, etc,etc...

So I wouldn't count on exported Russian stuff being a true measurement for machines VVS operates, a good indication sure but not an apsolute one.

 

I'll also agree with you that the Iraqi's didn't know how to handle Russian equipment but what about the Yugoslavians?

Yugoslavians really didn't have much to handle, they had first batch MiG-29A, I don't even know if they had R-73/R-27 missiles, if they did it was in VERY limited quantities and their primary weapons were probably R-60 maybe also R-23/24/40, I'm not sure. Also dues to sanctions they couldn't obtain spare parts so maintnance was pretty poor. Actually I have to admit it took serios balls to take those crates in the air against NATO forces, with faulty radars and RWR's in a plane that is being maintained with Yugo spare parts(ok that was a joke but you get the point).

 

 

Anyway through my small study of modern stuff both planes and theor payloads, I've encountered a lot of different opinions, there are people that think a flight of F-15's can take out entire Soviet airforce and there are people that think a single Su-37 can shot down all existing F-22's

Both are ridiculously extreme I know but that's just an example ofcourse, the thing I've learned looking through eyes of a "small", hopefully objective enough, non-military involved man like me is that yes, we(NATO and it's close allies) do have an edge in the air, but not a big one, far from it.

Hopefully, we will never find out how big the edge is...

[MigBuster 2,861]

I just came across a great article on current Russian missile technology, which might be helpful on adjusting the capability levels.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-BVR-AAM.html

 

Very interesting read, and I would be less likely to dismiss modern Russian air to air missle technology after reading this!

 

 

Im not saying his <50% kill rate for the AMRAAM variants is inacurate - but where did he get that the FA-18E/F will only be carrying 6 of them?

 

He then goes into saying that both the F-18EF and F35!!! will be hard pressed to beat a Flanker BVR?

 

He doesnt quite say how the Flanker is going to detect an F-35 head on funnily enough in this engagement!

 

Also goes onto list the F-35 - which will be the most advanced jet on the planet in a few years time as an inferior type!

 

Is this another - we only want the F-22 and everything else is crap type of docs that I keep seeing?

[Stick 773]

Weeee don't know where to start

Well...

 

 

Yes I actually got interested in all that missile thing thx to that thread, I've read tons of pages about nearly all missiles we have in-game, but primarly concentrated on US and Russian missiles.

 

The thing is, since I have WOI, I used it as a baseline and applied all original values from WOI to jul06, so I basically only "played" around with R-60MK(representing upgraded all-aspect M), R-27's,R-73's and R-77, all of my other values are a simple copy-paste from WOI including western weapons.

What I based my changes on was reading info and adjusting as needed, for example to make AIM-9M, I copied L's data and read what it said about M, if it said "upgraded CCM" I upped CM rejection values and so on and so on all the way up to AIM-9X.

Also don't think I just boosted Russian stuff up high ridiculously, for example R-27R still has worse characteristics than AIM-7M, but not much, it's about as good as AIM-7F, it's a serious threat you atleast have to do something to deal with it, not just flying strait with ECM on

However R-73M2 is quite close to AIM-9x/IRIS-T/ASRAAM and are a really scary threat, R-77 too.

Also no missile I've adjusted has 100% CM rejection because that seems really too much, when I see official info saying "Our missile can not be fooled by anything" from Rytheon itself then I may believe it lol

 

@Kukulino if you are interested in data I've changed for modern soviet missiles I can post it tommorow

 

Anyway guys this site is a great source for US weapons: http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/index.html

 

 

Now that I've sorted through the game related stuff...

 

 

 

And probably good that you did however AA-10 has many variants and subvariants, and from what I've read about Russian export they do not quite send the best stuff up, not so long ago I've read an article about them sending a series of aircraft(can't remember which, mig or su) that had horrible finish and in one case of some African country they sent really old overhauled airplanes instead of the brand new factory fresh ones.

Also one good (future)example is Su-35BM, which will be made for export only, however Russian version is called Su-27M2 and the difference is not small, Su-27M2 will have better radar, better engines, smaller RCS, etc,etc...

So I wouldn't count on exported Russian stuff being a true measurement for machines VVS operates, a good indication sure but not an apsolute one.

 

 

Yugoslavians really didn't have much to handle, they had first batch MiG-29A, I don't even know if they had R-73/R-27 missiles, if they did it was in VERY limited quantities and their primary weapons were probably R-60 maybe also R-23/24/40, I'm not sure. Also dues to sanctions they couldn't obtain spare parts so maintnance was pretty poor. Actually I have to admit it took serios balls to take those crates in the air against NATO forces, with faulty radars and RWR's in a plane that is being maintained with Yugo spare parts(ok that was a joke but you get the point).

 

 

Anyway through my small study of modern stuff both planes and theor payloads, I've encountered a lot of different opinions, there are people that think a flight of F-15's can take out entire Soviet airforce and there are people that think a single Su-37 can shot down all existing F-22's

Both are ridiculously extreme I know but that's just an example ofcourse, the thing I've learned looking through eyes of a "small", hopefully objective enough, non-military involved man like me is that yes, we(NATO and it's close allies) do have an edge in the air, but not a big one, far from it.

Hopefully, we will never find out how big the edge is...

 

My friend the biggest mistake anybody can make is to believe Russian propaganda. Thats how they've worked for the last hundred years and the only way they know how to work. I will concede that the equipment they export must be of markedly inferior quality( though the Sukhoi's we procured for training were the one's they flew themselves-they were ex-russian airforce; and that is why I considered it pertinent to mention the same.) No doubt they come out with aerodynamic marvels but that is where the buck stops. Their fire control is awful. Our MiG-29 pilots have specific tactics to defeat Pakistani F-16's, we will not go head to head unless forced to, and will use IR guided weapons as the first weapon to commence engagement. And we also fly in greater numbers.

 

The point is their airforce is running on modifications and embellishments to equipment that was last developed at the end of the cold war. Their economy cant sustain full scale technological research and development. Why do you think we Indians are now warming up up to the Americans??? And why have the Isreali's been our discreet friends in all things martial for the last twenty years? Coz russian equipment is unreliable. Period.

Edited April 4, 2008 by Stick

[TheOpposition 0]

Wait im curious, when did Australia have to face the SU-30? Last i had seen, I dont belive they are at war with anyone are they?

[MigBuster 2,861]

Wait im curious, when did Australia have to face the SU-30? Last i had seen, I dont belive they are at war with anyone are they?

 

They just evaluate their defences on the perceived current/future threats in that region of the world - like everyone else.

[Wraith27 6]

Hello! This is the russian WIP air-to-air rockets! As you see the K-74M is only the modification of R-73 and K-30 looks like AIM-132 ASRAAM. You can take it's 3d model and make new russian missiles The tests of K-74M starts in 1994(?) but russians don't produced it. Now they are work on the K-74M2. I will be avaible in ~2010 and will have paramiters like AIM-9X. The second missile will be avaible in ~2013.