Phantom Tactics - At Least Some Things to Try

[wagsled 0]

Wags,

One more bothersome question to you. I read a review once when the Strike Fighters series first came out (by someone with F-4 experience) that he thought that the airplanes did not have enough apparent drag when the power was cut. Does this seem to be an issue to you? Thanks again for all of the input, I'm sure everyone here appreciates your time.

 

Mike D. again

 

 

Actually, Mike, I was going to add a note to the information I provided earlier regarding the normal two types of enroute descent used in the F-4; i.e. either idle or half-nozzle.

 

I suggested using your altitude (in feet) as the number of nautical miles out to start the idle descent and two times altitude for the half-nozzle descent. When I tried both last evening (just to see how they worked out), I actually needed about 2.5 times altitude for idle and nearly 4 times altitude for the half-nozzle descent - both of which I think are too much.

 

This leads me to believe that the drag coefficient on the model is not correct (as suggested by the Phantom driver you mentioned) and this seems further supported when you do a break turn (hard as possible at idle power) to avoid a missile. In the real F-4, you dropped speed really quickly (450 KIAS to 200 KIAS in less than 180 degrees of turn, if I recall correctly). The model in the sim just doesn't bleed energy that quickly at idle. It bleeds off a bit closer to reality at full power during a hard turn, but still not as fast as I recall. Remember, the Phantom flew on power - living proof that if you put enough power on a barn door, you could get it to fly. Without power, the Phantom had all the flying characteristics of a brick.

 

Cheers,

 

Wags

[mppd 16]

Thanks again, you're the best!

 

MPD

[wagsled 0]

Did the Navy ever even have gunpods for the F-4. I know that Osprey's US Navy mig killers book one would lead you to believe that they didnt. But I know some of you guys actually flew them, so I was wondering about that...

 

 

I flew the F-4 with the USAF during 'Nam and we didn't carry them very often on the F-4C and D models. The SUU-23 was, to say the least, unreliable, and often jammed after firing only a few rounds. When I transferred to the Marine Corps after the war, we hardly ever used them in training. They were also difficult to keep maintained and, I'm told by my USMC and USN friends, didn't handle carrier landings all that well during the war.

 

The SUU-23 was a "band-aid" for Robert McNamara's decision to take guns off US fighters. Most of the time, the SUU-23 would have made a good anchor for a large ship or a stop to keep the hanger doors open. Since the SUU-23 was so unreliable, most of us considered it to be a lot of weight to lug around and it took up a valuable hardpoint on the F-4 that could be used for more fuel or ordnance.

 

Others may have had a better experience with the SUU-23 gun pod...if so, please say so as I don't want to be the sole source of info on this beast.

 

Cheers,

 

Wags

[MigBuster 2,861]

So to sum up - poor missiles, a gun pod that was so bad pilots felt it better to leave at home and a jet with the flying characterics of a brick - also BVR missiles you had to use at visual range - cant think of many other ways to make it more of a challenge really - other than to only fly on 1 engine :)

 

The gunpods always been a must for me in this sim if available - becomes invaluable after Ive jettisoned the AIM-4Ds into the ether.

 

On the other hand flying the F-4B in an early 64 nam campaign captures some of that futility by having 4xAIM-9Bs and 4x AIM-7s to fight the Mig-17s with - sometimes all you can think of doing is to try and lure the Migs away.

Difficult enough against the poor AI - but against a real pilot probably a nightmare.

[wagsled 0]

So to sum up - poor missiles, a gun pod that was so bad pilots felt it better to leave at home and a jet with the flying characterics of a brick - also BVR missiles you had to use at visual range - cant think of many other ways to make it more of a challenge really - other than to only fly on 1 engine :)

 

The gunpods always been a must for me in this sim if available - becomes invaluable after Ive jettisoned the AIM-4Ds into the ether.

 

On the other hand flying the F-4B in an early 64 nam campaign captures some of that futility by having 4xAIM-9Bs and 4x AIM-7s to fight the Mig-17s with - sometimes all you can think of doing is to try and lure the Migs away.

Difficult enough against the poor AI - but against a real pilot probably a nightmare.

 

 

"Drag and Bag" is indeed a proven ACM technique, CoolHand29! It works if you can get a single to follow you away from the fight, especially if you get enough distance between (5 -6 NM) to pitch back and give him an AIM-7 shot in the face. This works especially well if he gets frustrated at you bugging out at a higher speed and elects to turn away. Then, when you pitch back into him, you have a stern shot with the Sparrow or, if that fails or you are too close, an AIM-9. Lots of ways to skin the bogey...

 

As for our equipment making air combat against the tighter turning MiGs more difficult, that was only part of the problem. Get someone to tell you about the ROE (Rules of Engagement) we operated under. There were many times when we (the aircrew) weren't sure who was making the rules - our side or theirs!

 

Cheers for now,

 

Wags

[+Typhoid 231]

"Get someone to tell you about the ROE (Rules of Engagement) we operated under. There were many times when we (the aircrew) weren't sure who was making the rules - our side or theirs!"

 

sadly, that did not and has not changed......

 

the set up going into the Gulf War was particularly hard, although essentially based on the same that you had in Vietnam.

[MigBuster 2,861]

"Drag and Bag" is indeed a proven ACM technique, CoolHand29! It works if you can get a single to follow you away from the fight, especially if you get enough distance between (5 -6 NM) to pitch back and give him an AIM-7 shot in the face. This works especially well if he gets frustrated at you bugging out at a higher speed and elects to turn away. Then, when you pitch back into him, you have a stern shot with the Sparrow or, if that fails or you are too close, an AIM-9. Lots of ways to skin the bogey...

 

As for our equipment making air combat against the tighter turning MiGs more difficult, that was only part of the problem. Get someone to tell you about the ROE (Rules of Engagement) we operated under. There were many times when we (the aircrew) weren't sure who was making the rules - our side or theirs!

 

Cheers for now,

 

Wags

 

 

Thanks Wags - I thought this may have been cheating the ROE a bit - since I would be dragging the Mig away from the flight and then firing a shot at something that couldnt be Identified too well from maybe 5 miles or so (or the minimum enagement range for the Sparrow).

Was the real radar any use at identifying a smaller target or was it a case of using binoculars?

[wagsled 0]

Thanks Wags - I thought this may have been cheating the ROE a bit - since I would be dragging the Mig away from the flight and then firing a shot at something that couldnt be Identified too well from maybe 5 miles or so (or the minimum enagement range for the Sparrow).

Was the real radar any use at identifying a smaller target or was it a case of using binoculars?

 

 

Hi CoolHand29,

 

I never heard of anyone carrying binoculars in a Phantom except perhaps the WSO or RIO on a fast FAC mission. Even then they would be very difficult to use under 1 g conditions because of helmet, visor and mask - put on another g or two during even mild maneuvering and most of us couldn't have held them up to our eyes. I know my dad used binoculars (I still have his) when flying the F-6F at Okinawa during WWII, but I think they used them mostly for spotting/identifying Japanese ships.

 

As for breaking the ROE with a 'bag and drag", assuming the bogey followed you out of the furball I think even the most ardent supporter of the ROE would agree he was a "combatant" and you could shoot him in the face with an AIM-7. It was done with some success in 'Nam and, to my knowledge, no one ever raised an eyebrow. As for keeping sight of the bogey chasing you, man, that's what back-seater's were for! A good WSO or RIO could keep sight until you had at least 2 to 3 miles separation. Then give it another 15 or 20 seconds and pitch back toward where you last had a tally...he'll be somewhere near there and the auto acquisition on the F-4 radar was actually pretty good. If you didn't get a lock or a tally, then blow through and try it again - or better yet, bug out for home and hit the bar!

 

Cheers for now,

 

Wags

[wagsled 0]

"Get someone to tell you about the ROE (Rules of Engagement) we operated under. There were many times when we (the aircrew) weren't sure who was making the rules - our side or theirs!"

 

sadly, that did not and has not changed......

 

the set up going into the Gulf War was particularly hard, although essentially based on the same that you had in Vietnam.

 

 

Sorry to hear that, Typhoid. You'd think we would have learned by now...

 

Wags

[MigBuster 2,861]

Hi CoolHand29,

 

I never heard of anyone carrying binoculars in a Phantom except perhaps the WSO or RIO on a fast FAC mission. Even then they would be very difficult to use under 1 g conditions because of helmet, visor and mask - put on another g or two during even mild maneuvering and most of us couldn't have held them up to our eyes. I know my dad used binoculars (I still have his) when flying the F-6F at Okinawa during WWII, but I think they used them mostly for spotting/identifying Japanese ships.

 

As for breaking the ROE with a 'bag and drag", assuming the bogey followed you out of the furball I think even the most ardent supporter of the ROE would agree he was a "combatant" and you could shoot him in the face with an AIM-7. It was done with some success in 'Nam and, to my knowledge, no one ever raised an eyebrow. As for keeping sight of the bogey chasing you, man, that's what back-seater's were for! A good WSO or RIO could keep sight until you had at least 2 to 3 miles separation. Then give it another 15 or 20 seconds and pitch back toward where you last had a tally...he'll be somewhere near there and the auto acquisition on the F-4 radar was actually pretty good. If you didn't get a lock or a tally, then blow through and try it again - or better yet, bug out for home and hit the bar!

 

Cheers for now,

 

Wags

 

Amazing thanks - that info is gold - am saving it as we speak!

 

Will be practising this tactic a lot more now - using the auto/boresight mode and zooming in so I can get a tally on the blighter!

[+Typhoid 231]

Sorry to hear that, Typhoid. You'd think we would have learned by now...

 

Wags

 

I wish. I remember standing in a brief with Gen Horner after the Gulf War where he described his reasons for denying the USN permission to employ the Phoenix and why he kept the F-14's reserved for Fleet defense. (Of course, that meant that only F-15's would go "downtown".) He released the F-14's only after there were no more planes left in Iraq.

 

the consistent theme has been the confirmed ID, which as you well know is pretty hard to get. Since no one still trusts electronic, it almost always comes down to someone going in and getting a VID.

[Stwa 18]

1. Fight them vertically - use the power of the Phantom and keep your speed up. Except at the top of the "egg", don't let your speed drop below 350 KIAS and only do that when you have to. Also, the MiG-17 doesn't roll well at high speed - no power boost on the controls.

3. If you start getting slow, try to pass the bogey as close to 180 degree out as you can, unload (push the nose over), stroke the burners and extend. And, ladies and gents, I'm talking extend to five or six miles separation. Get lots of knots, 550+, select boresight on the radar and the AIM-7E, pitch up and back into the fight, auto acquire that bad-boy and shoot him in the face with the Sparrow. You'll find this works pretty well.

4. Finally, if you are getting into a bad position, tell your wingman to head for home, unload, go for the deck and get the hell out of there. You can always live to fight another day.

 

Nice article...

 

Your #1 is generally good advise (no matter what aircraft you are flying) if you must get in close with the 17's. The AI pilots generally don't respond as well to an attack from above. Plus it's easier to get on their tail at the critical moment.

 

Your #3 is my preferred tactic, especially when engaging frustrating pesky MiG 17's, 19's. With self dicipline you can get your 4 kills (using Sparrows) and then RTB. Only your wingmen become a liability because they don't seem to grasp this tactic to the extent that they should.

 

So, if I am really worried about the wingman, I simply send them home. Now the odds are 10-1, but since then enemy planes don't have Sparrows, its not really that bleak. You get your 4 kills and then scoot. Score 4-0. Not bad.

[toonces 4]

Great post wagsled.

 

My dad was an F-4 RIO with VMFA-333 right around the time you were in Beaufort. He deployed with the Nimitz in '76.

He has, unfortunately, passed away, but he would have gotten such a kick out of these sims.

 

Anyway, I love taking the F-4 up, obviously the coolest plane ever built. I'll have to try out your mods and give WOV a go tonight.

 

Thanks for posting!

Toonces out.

[wagsled 0]

Great post wagsled.

 

My dad was an F-4 RIO with VMFA-333 right around the time you were in Beaufort. He deployed with the Nimitz in '76.

He has, unfortunately, passed away, but he would have gotten such a kick out of these sims.

 

Anyway, I love taking the F-4 up, obviously the coolest plane ever built. I'll have to try out your mods and give WOV a go tonight.

 

Thanks for posting!

Toonces out.

 

 

Sorry to hear about your dad, Toonces. I wonder if I knew him? Sadly, too many of those who flew in that era have "moved on" - hopefully to a place where there is a good bar, a clear sky, and lots of 2v2 sorties.

 

As a RIO with Trip Trey, he was one of the best and you should be very proud of him and what he accomplished.

 

Semper Fi!

 

Wagsled

[toonces 4]

It wouldn't surprise me if you knew him, I imagine the flying community in Beaufort was fairly tight. His callsign was "Iron" as in "Iron Mike". When I go back to my mom's house, if I remember this thread, I can check his logbook and see who he flew with...the only guys I really remember anymore is a pilot named John Beery (sp), and another guy callsign "Coot" for Coutier I think. I also remember a Lt. Col. Braun that he was friends with.

 

After 333, he went to 101 as an instructor RIO in Yuma. Probably one of my oldest memories is when he took me to the simulator and let me ride in the back while one of his students did cats and traps off the boat (CV-59). "Hey dad, what does this button do?" "Uhh, son, just don't press any buttons, ok?" LOL.

 

It goes without saying that he had a huge influence on me. Somewhere, buried in my basement at my mom's house, I have a picture of myself in front of an F-4 with Bear Lassiter. He always encouraged me to go Air Force with their better planes and golf courses, but I was prejudice and joined the Navy instead. Unfortunately, I selected during a bad week and got P-3s instead of jets, but I've come to love the Orion and hunting subs is pretty cool.

 

Just about the only simming I remember doing with him was way back in the Falcon 3 era. I was playing the Hornet 3 add-on, trying to strike a ground target, but everytime I approached the coast I got engaged by a SAM site. So, finally after a half dozen unsuccessful tries I asked him to come over and he talked me through the engagement. Great stuff. I can't help but imagine what he would make of our sim world now- and how cool it would have been to be able to wing up in a pair of F-4s with him over the internet. I really think he would get a kick out of all this.

 

It's great to hear about your real-life experiences, and it's certainly appreciated by me at least to hear a real-deal F-4 pilot's thoughts on the simming experience, and how it stacks up to the real experience.

 

Anyway, didn't mean to derail your thread....it's hard for me to up a Phantom without thinking about my dad, and your interview and this thread sort of got to me.

 

See ya in the air,

Toonces

[+swambast 601]

Absolutely touching and inspiring thread...thank you.

[Syrinx 13]

Anyway, didn't mean to derail your thread....it's hard for me to up a Phantom without thinking about my dad, and your interview and this thread sort of got to me.

 

 

That's not derailing a thread...that's called giving a thread some heart and a human touch.

 

Thankyou.

[Viper6 3]

That's not derailing a thread...that's called giving a thread some heart and a human touch.

 

Thankyou.

Absolutly! Thank you!