Gun jam

[New Guy 1]

Hey,

 

Any of you guys experienced inflight gun jam with the latest patch?

[+hgbn 91]

In almost every mission using guns so far

[+Brain32 265]

What excatly is the difference between guns that jam(e.g. 50cal on a Sabre) and guns that don't jam(e.g. Vulcan)?

[+streakeagle 864]

Some gun installations are more likely to jam than others.

Take as few shots as possible and use short controlled well-aimed bursts to reduce the likelyhood of a jam.

If you are using spray-n-pray, you will jam almost any gun in the game very quickly.

Some weapons on some aircraft were notorious for jamming, notably the F-8 Crusader's 20mm cannons.

There is a reason the "Last Gunfighter" got most of its kills with AIM-9s!

 

The 20mm Vulcan rotary cannon has many disadvantages, but in most versions of it, reliability is not one of them.

Without even checking the gun data, I am sure TK has modeled this advantage.

Though I bet TK hasn't modeled the spool-up time that greatly reduces the effective rate of fire.

While always quoted as having selectable 3000 or 6000 rounds per minute, the fact is over short bursts, the 6-barrels do not instantly spin up from 0 rpm to 500 or 1000 rpm.

But even if the effective rate of fire isn't much better than most quad-mounted single barrel 20mm cannon, as long as the feed mechanism doesn't jam, the gun is self-clearing when hydraulically or electically powered.

Of course, some would say the caliber is too small compared to many aircraft that have 23mm, 27mm, or 30mm cannon.

If the purpose of the gun is air-to-air, the modern version of the 20mm round is more than adequate.

Why else would the US stick with one design for so long when other versions are available in 25mm (AV-8B Harrier) and 30mm (4-barrel version of GAU-8 used in gunpods for F-15E)?

[+streakeagle 864]

Typically, jams are caused by firing the guns while under unusual g-loads.

High-g turns can cause problems with feed/extraction mechanisms.

Low, no, or negative g-loads can cause problems as well.

The problem is the that most gun designs were engineered on the ground with a simple level 1-g load.

Air combat really tests an engineers ability to feed ammo and eject casings rapidly no matter what the environment.

 

Typical guns use belts of ammo chained together as in the classic 0.50 cal M2.

Linked belts tend to break, twist, and/or bind such that the gun cannot load the next round.

In conventional designs, casings are typically ejected by the force of the gases used to propel the round, possibly being assisted by gravity to help with the ejection path.

Under high loads, the casings don't follow the intended path and get stuck in the chamber where the next round is supposed to go.

Once a shot has been fired and the next round could not/would not automatically feed, there is usually no means to try to feed another round manually.

 

The rotary cannon design went with a linkless chute type of feed: the rounds are essentially rolled through a chute into a chamber where they can be rammed into the barrel(s).

While there can be some feed issues, especially under high g-loads, the whole process is driven mechanically and has a good chance of being cleared if a problem does occur.

Fired or not, the rounds are extracted mechanically as well.

Typically, on internal installations, the spent casings are fed back into the ammo drum.

This eliminates any possibility of loose brass hurting the aircraft (think air intakes).

So the entire process is from loading to extraction is precise and controlled as it needs to be if you are going to fire up to 100 rounds per second!

The problem with the multi-barrel gatling gun is size and weight.

A pair of single-barrel revolver cannons can produce nearly the same effective rate of fire (less mass to spool up, but more limited by barrel temperatures) for a fraction of the weight.

 

So, if you have the room, a gatling gun is probably the best way to go, but for a small lightweight installation, revolver cannon get the job done (think F-5).

Edited January 1, 2009 by streakeagle

[Kirsten 0]

Good piece Streakeagle !!!

 

Aju,

 

Derk :yes:

[New Guy 1]

@streakeagle: Thanks for the info, it was really explaining :)

 

I've only encountered one jam while flying the TA-4, strafing the oil/fuel tanks at Haiphong. My port cannon suddenly went bananas... It would happen on weapons set to hard isn't it? Or is it on every difficulty setting?

[+streakeagle 864]

This is a new feature that is borrowed from First Eagles, so I have no idea how it is implemented.

I don't know the different jam probabilities or how jamming depends on what difficulty settings.

I generally play on Hard settings, so I am not so good at providing tech support on the differences between Easy, Normal, and Hard.

[coolpilot 2]

Some guns also jam if you fire them for too long, but Ithink you can unjam them: in the aircraftobject.ini there´s an entrythat says:

 

[GunData]

AllowUnjamAttempt=FALSE

 

Maybe you can unjam your guns if you change it to TRUE

[+streakeagle 864]

Most WWI guns and some WW2 guns can be recharged manually from the cockpit to try to clear a jam.

Other than the fact that rotary cannons feed the next round whether the previous round fired or not, I don't know of any modern guns that should permit you to clear a jam while in the air.

[New Guy 1]

Reminds me of the self-clearing mechanism for XF-34 Dreamstar's cannon...

Guess the jam probability/reliability can be set through gundata entries. Either 100% rugged or fail often. Anyway, thanks for the info^^

[Gr.Viper 131]

Gunpods can jam too, BTW. Mk 4 once jammed on me after spitting only 72 rounds.

 

Guess the jam probability/reliability can be set through gundata entries.

It is there :yes:

[MaverickMike 10]

Hi guys.

 

interesting topic. I have had the 30mm from a mirage 3 jam on 2 ocaasions in woi. However both times my aircraft was damaged. Does this affect it i wonder?

 

Mike

[+streakeagle 864]

Hi guys.

 

interesting topic. I have had the 30mm from a mirage 3 jam on 2 ocaasions in woi. However both times my aircraft was damaged. Does this affect it i wonder?

 

Mike

 

Most likely, purely coincidence. I have had almost every aircraft with a gun have a jam at one time or another since this feature has been added. Firing long bursts definitely increases the probability of a jam. The F-8 Crusdader jams quite a bit (which is realistic) and the Mk4 Mod0 gunpod for the Navy Phantoms jams very easily as well. But I have had jams with F-100s and even the F-4E's 20mm Vulcan.

[+Crusader 2,050]

On gatling-type guns can be prone to jam to, if their ammo feed is designed or maintenanced poorly... another problem they have is a "runaway-gun".. gun spools up but wont stop

 

MiG-21F and MF etc have 3 pyrotechnic charges to clear a jam ( = 3 attempts), operation of them is via push-buttons on the instrument panel.

Revolver-type cannons ( ADEN, DEFA, Mauser etc) also use a pyrotechnic system with 3 to 10 charges depending on gun installation/ aircraft type, but many of the early aircraft using those guns were not fitted with them at all.

[WDH 0]

Most likely, purely coincidence. I have had almost every aircraft with a gun have a jam at one time or another since this feature has been added. Firing long bursts definitely increases the probability of a jam. The F-8 Crusader jams quite a bit (which is realistic) and the Mk4 Mod0 gunpod for the Navy Phantoms jams very easily as well. But I have had jams with F-100s and even the F-4E's 20mm Vulcan.

 

In my experience,Very true on the F-8 Crusader gun jam.Excellent jet to fly but,cannons need to be handled with kid gloves.Using very short round burst seems to help a lot.I adapted this method of firing any weapons due to force of habit from real world training as a grunt and peace officer.Make you a better "shot" anyhow.

 

Brady

[Gr.Viper 131]

MiG-21F and MF etc have 3 pyrotechnic charges to clear a jam ( = 3 attempts), operation of them is via push-buttons on the instrument panel.

Revolver-type cannons ( ADEN, DEFA, Mauser etc) also use a pyrotechnic system with 3 to 10 charges depending on gun installation/ aircraft type, but many of the early aircraft using those guns were not fitted with them at all.

Another thing to ask TK about

[New Guy 1]

Hi guys.

 

interesting topic. I have had the 30mm from a mirage 3 jam on 2 ocaasions in woi. However both times my aircraft was damaged. Does this affect it i wonder?

 

Mike

 

Think so. Once I got shot up pretty bad in the nose section when flying an F-8 , then the starboard cannons would fire while the port side wouldn't. Considered as battle damage? Dunno.

[WarlordATF 1]

For realism the new guns jam feature is kinda cool, but it can also get annoying. Real pilots are forced to deal with it, however us simmers have another option.

 

There are two steps you need to do to cheat and unjam your guns inflight...

 

As mentioned above you will need to change the aircraftobject.ini section from AllowUnjamAttempt=FALSE to AllowUnjamAttempt=TRUE.

 

Now in WOE at least, TK did not add a keybinding to unjam the guns, so you will need to open the woe/controls/Default.ini (Or whatever control INI you are using) and add UNJAM_GUN=* (* can be any unused key you want to assign)

 

Finally, if you go to the key commands option screen you will lose the "UNJAM_GUN=" statement so you are better off if you right click on Default.ini and click the READ ONLY checkbox. You will need to make the file writeable again if you need to change a keybinding so make sure its correct before you add "UNJAM_GUN=" and make the file read only.

 

I started using the read only method when i needed different settings for my Joystick Axis. We only have 1 slider in game to adjust sensitivty and deadzone, but in the INI there is a section for each axis. My Pitch and Roll worked fine but my rudder control had developed alot of play in it so i needed the Yaw input settings set much lower than Pitch and Roll.

 

Hope this helps.

[TeTeT 0]

...

As mentioned above you will need to change the aircraftobject.ini section from AllowUnjamAttempt=FALSE to AllowUnjamAttempt=TRUE.

...

Hope this helps.

 

Definitely, a welcome simulation of the R2 units missing from the game :)

[fallenphoenix1986 603]

thanks for the fix, been having te cannon in the Typhoon jam every single time I use it. Was firing at most 7 rounds and thats was it.

 

Craig

[gbnavy61 1]

In my experience,Very true on the F-8 Crusader gun jam.Excellent jet to fly but,cannons need to be handled with kid gloves.Using very short round burst seems to help a lot.I adapted this method of firing any weapons due to force of habit from real world training as a grunt and peace officer.Make you a better "shot" anyhow.

 

Brady

 

On top of that, do yourself a favor in the F-8 and map the "gun group" function. Now you can fire only two cannons at a time instead of all four. If you do yank too hard and jam them, you've got two good cannons left.

 

It does happen a lot in the 'Sader, usually I jam up one cannon per mission - sometimes a heavy G-load, sometimes just a long burst. However, using them 2 at a time and disciplining yourself for taking shots will get you plenty of gun kills with the "MiG Master."

Edited February 4, 2009 by gbnavy61

[charlielima 328]

Yup. Jammed all 4 on the A-lE. I was pretty well lined up and wasn't yanking gobs of Gs.

Bummed me out. There was a couple of targets I was saving that where perfect for a swell gun run.

:ph34r: CL

[zmatt 2]

Sometimes I think the jamming is unrealistic. I understand jamming in heavy G's or negative G's, But I highly doubt they put cannon on aircraft that were prone to jamming in level flight. That's unacceptable performance by an measurement. Case in point the M2 doesn't jam often, she is a very reliable gun, one of the reasons we have used it for so long, so why does it jam when I and strafing targets and I'm not pulling any G's, positive or negative?

[Southernap 1]

Actually guns can jam in level flight as well. When the F4F's went to the six gun configuration in the F4F-4, the way the guns were installed into the wing by the engineers put the guns at about a 12degree off vertical. This was primarly to fit the two additional guns along with thier ammo in the same space the four guns occupied in the wings. In turn this would cause the guns to jam up at times if their ammo wasn't greased and in the trays proprerly or just because the great god Grog hated the aviatiors. These were the aviation variant of John Brownings M2 .50cal, which was one of the most reliable machine guns designed. Other reasons that a gun could jam even in level or low-g flight are including but not excluding, poor maintenance done on the gun, a poorly manufactured round, heck I have even seen guns jam because the belts weren't properly greased.