Are flight sims going out of style?

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

I'm seriously wondering guys.

It has been years since a new license, a new wide public flight sim was released.

I don't have a fancy PC nor the bank account allowing the two-years upgrade rythm of the late 90's early 2000's but still...

In those days, there were a lot of new sims very often: JSF, Red Baron II, Flankers, EF 2000, Jane's stuff, Mig Alley.

 

Apart from Lock On and TK's add-ons (or new games of the license), I just can't think about any worthwile military flight sim in the past couple of years.

 

I could be misinformed, but it's quite sad, and I'm wondering about the future of our common hobby.

[+Gunrunner 313]

They've gone out of fashion 10 years ago, along with real wargames (miniatures, pen and paper or computer), pen & paper RPGs, model kits and a whole host of classical hobies, now replaced by console games and... well, console games...

 

It's a cultural thing as much as an economical one...

 

Culturally, these hobbies require too much time, too much learning, offer delayed gratification...

 

Economically, there is little interest to get money to produce such things when the market is shrinking and there are more profitable sectors, the shrinking in demand leading to a shrinking in offer, in turn shrinking demand etc... these hobbies fell below their critical mass.

Edited February 19, 2009 by Gunrunner

[MAKO69 186]

Were have you been the customer base has to be one of the smallest in the gaming industry. I knew we were in big trouble when JANE's stopped supporting sims. Now all we have is ACE COMBAT, OVER G, and now H.A.W.X. type console games which are fun, look beutiful, but lack that element of realism. Now MS flight sims gone too, not good for us computer simers. All we have is 3rd wire, see how they do through this econemy.

Edited February 19, 2009 by MAKO69

[fallenphoenix1986 603]

There are a few in the works though I doubt we'll ever see the likes of the 90's again

 

SevenG : F/A-18C study sim

Jet Thunder : Falklands dim

XXX XXXX : I cant remember the title but theres also one set around the USAF from basic flight training up to front line operations. Dont expect to see it any time soo though.

 

Craig

[JediMaster 451]

I think 2002 was the last good year for it. We had LOMAC, Il-2 + expansions, CFS3, SFP1, etc.

 

Since then we've only had mods to old games, F4:AF (which is itself really a mod), EE2 (ditto), more Il-2 expansion, MS FS releases (now gone), and TK's follow-on releases.

The only bright light has been DCS: Black Shark and the upcoming DCS releases, along with SoW:BoB (whenever THAT comes out).

 

Not to belittle TW's sims, but if you didn't like SFP1 you won't like WOI or SF2. That's what happens from using the same code base for every release. Of course, LOMAC and DCS are in the same boat pretty much!

 

There are other new ones on the horizon, but it's not like 1998/99 when there were more flight sims released for the PC than there were FPS on the PC in 2008!!! Halo was the death knell of FPS on the PC, BTW. It proved a mediocre game could sell like mad on a console and everything shifted to there.

[Viper6 3]

I'll be buying TK's products until the very last, Da Bitter end, Til the Fat Lady sings til...

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

They've gone out of fashion 10 years ago, along with real wargames (miniatures, pen and paper or computer), pen & paper RPGs, model kits and a whole host of classical hobies, now replaced by console games and... well, console games...

Yup,

a friend of mine working in PC game industry told me about the lost battle between PC games and consoles ones.

 

Wargames are in better shape still, thanks to Matrix (despite their expansiveness), HPS, Ageod and a few others. Well, it's still a very tiny market, but there are is the same new titles, if not the most original ones.

Edited February 19, 2009 by Emp_Palpatine

[Stick 773]

The world is a very stupid place!

[SGCSG1 0]

I'll be buying TK's products until the very last, Da Bitter end, Til the Fat Lady sings til...

 

 

Amen, brother. I spent 40 bucks with third wire just last month. You've got to support the people who deserve it.

 

I have hopes for 'Rise of Flight', I'm a huge WWI sim fan. 'Jet Thunder' has possibilities. The new Battle of Britain sim from the IL-2 people might be nice if it EVER GETS HERE.

 

I think the sim companies killed themselves. Poor project management, feature creep, poor quality control. I would much rather have a smaller, but less buggy sim, but that's rarely what we get. And the hardcore stuff insanely hard. The one half of one percent of the market scream about little things, but your average 'guy' thinks something like Falcon 4 is insane (I agree with that). Remember Falcon 3? You could hop into 'instant combat' and fly around and have a blast. F4, hop into 'instant combat' and you're dead in about three minutes.

 

With the LOMAC people (DCS) sticking with starforce that's one whole product line I will never buy. Damn.

[FastCargo 412]

Alluded to a little bit, but not explained well is the intersection of two curves.

 

The increasing curve of costs to make a good flight sim (more features, more fidelity, etc.) and the decreasing curve of percentage of interest (more gamers in general, but less in percentage of the hardcore simmer).

 

Those 2 factors combined is what has seriously decreased the flight sim market in general.

 

FC

[Lt. James Cater 62]

They've gone out of fashion 10 years ago, along with real wargames (miniatures, pen and paper or computer), pen & paper RPGs, model kits and a whole host of classical hobies, now replaced by console games and... well, console games...

 

It's a cultural thing as much as an economical one...

 

Culturally, these hobbies require too much time, too much learning, offer delayed gratification...

 

Economically, there is little interest to get money to produce such things when the market is shrinking and there are more profitable sectors, the shrinking in demand leading to a shrinking in offer, in turn shrinking demand etc... these hobbies fell below their critical mass.

I was thinking something along the same lines for a while now.

 

A few years ago i sorta got the feeling that gaming in general was "dumbing down". Ever go on Youtube and see some of the ACE COMBAT vids? Terrible for the most part but quite popular. I for one, cannot imagine anything like in a sim unless virtually everything is set on easy.

[+Gunrunner 313]

True, but we still forget the fact that PC gaming, once a sector by passionate people for passionate people with very little profits, has become a behemoth industry, with only profits as a benchmark, and while most developers still are out there to make products they can be proud of, the various intermediaries, actually funding the projects are there only to make as much money out of it, as fast as possible, and flight sims, even with a large appeal, are no such product.

[+GrinchWSLG 24]

You guys realize Ace Combat and arcade-ish flight combat games have been around for a long time right? Even before Jane's USAF and the other great combat sims. I think the major downturn for combat flightsims and military simulators in general was the loss of the Jane's franchise. Lack of audience and buggy products can be blamed quite easily for that. Its not like getting rid of the simpler games will magically bring the market back, face it, a very small percent of the population have a moderate to serious interest in flying. What you have to remember is these products are made by companies and companies exist to make profit. That's nothing evil, its the way it is.

 

So how to get more sims? Support the companies that do still produce them. Get players from the simpler games to move into the more serious sims. I think Ace Combat and the like are great gateway products for younger players and don't deserve nearly the amount of rivet counter bashing they receive. Finally, and most importantly, in the online communities, be open and accepting to new and inexperienced members. I've seen so many forums where inexperience is not tolerated and it does nothing but drive new people away. Thankfully that's absolutely not found here.

[+ST0RM 145]

Finally, and most importantly, in the online communities, be open and accepting to new and inexperienced members. I've seen so many forums where inexperience is not tolerated and it does nothing but drive new people away. Thankfully that's absolutely not found here.

 

Very well thought out reply. Please forgive me in that I've only quoted a portion, in order to address the last part.

 

Unfortunately, it is the inexperienced members who've crossed over from consoles who make it hard on themselves. Most log in and want their questions answered NOW. They dont want to or be directed to read a FAQ/Knowledge Base or to simply do a keyword search, before posting a desperate plea for help because they couldnt get something to work right the first time. They expect the answers to be given to them, instead of working a bit for it. I guess the words I'm searching for would be "proper online etiquette".

 

This is just my opinion based on observations here and over the years on several other boards. It's the same no matter the subject though. It all comes back to the "I want it now" attitude. Scripted consoles games are just for that.

[+GrinchWSLG 24]

Unfortunately, it is the inexperienced members who've crossed over from consoles who make it hard on themselves. Most log in and want their questions answered NOW. They dont want to or be directed to read a FAQ/Knowledge Base or to simply do a keyword search, before posting a desperate plea for help because they couldnt get something to work right the first time. They expect the answers to be given to them, instead of working a bit for it. I guess the words I'm searching for would be "proper online etiquette".

 

This is just my opinion based on observations here and over the years on several other boards. It's the same no matter the subject though. It all comes back to the "I want it now" attitude. Scripted consoles games are just for that.

 

Its a valid point, however, I think its a case of "a needle in the haystack". Certainly by and large console players are immature and not of the proper mindset for simulation gaming, but I think there are more than a few among the legions who have the potential to become simulation gamers. Had I been born 10 years later I might be among them. So I think its better to not simply clump all Ace Combat players in the same category and consider them useless. There's many future pilots among them who may simply not know about these games. I had flown MSFS, and CFS for years before I found Strike Fighters. I only found it because I'd had an urge to play a moddable jet combat sim after playing a loaned copy of Jane's USAF. A Google search led me to the SimHQ article on Strike Fighters.

 

It may be trying, but I think having a little patience with the younger gamers and giving them a chance (just one is enough) will yield results. I think the Thirdwire Sims Knowledge Base here is a great example of what forums can do to get new people into the game (although it could use some expansion, especially in the modding catagories). Perhaps even an open forum dedicated to answering questions about the sim so that those topics don't clog up the General Topics. Mind you, these are just lighthearted suggestions, I think this forum does an above average job when it comes to newbies.

 

Bringing back the Golden Age of flightsiming will require some sort of revolution, either producer or player side. I think it may be a case of both, where suddenly there is a large amount of players wanting a somewhat in-depth simulation and a producer willing to answer their calls. Unfortunately as things stand now there is only a smaller number of players wanting something more than arcadey, and very few producers willing to chance profit for gameplay.

[MigBuster 2,861]

think the golden age of flight sims is long gone - now everyones tried it once lol

 

There doesnt need to be a new golden age - but an age of stability would be nice.

 

Lets just prey TK doesnt get bored :)

[+ST0RM 145]

Its a valid point, however, I think its a case of "a needle in the haystack". Certainly by and large console players are immature and not of the proper mindset for simulation gaming, but I think there are more than a few among the legions who have the potential to become simulation gamers. Had I been born 10 years later I might be among them. So I think its better to not simply clump all Ace Combat players in the same category and consider them useless. There's many future pilots among them who may simply not know about these games. I had flown MSFS, and CFS for years before I found Strike Fighters. I only found it because I'd had an urge to play a moddable jet combat sim after playing a loaned copy of Jane's USAF. A Google search led me to the SimHQ article on Strike Fighters.

 

It may be trying, but I think having a little patience with the younger gamers and giving them a chance (just one is enough) will yield results. I think the Thirdwire Sims Knowledge Base here is a great example of what forums can do to get new people into the game (although it could use some expansion, especially in the modding catagories). Perhaps even an open forum dedicated to answering questions about the sim so that those topics don't clog up the General Topics. Mind you, these are just lighthearted suggestions, I think this forum does an above average job when it comes to newbies.

 

Bringing back the Golden Age of flightsiming will require some sort of revolution, either producer or player side. I think it may be a case of both, where suddenly there is a large amount of players wanting a somewhat in-depth simulation and a producer willing to answer their calls. Unfortunately as things stand now there is only a smaller number of players wanting something more than arcadey, and very few producers willing to chance profit for gameplay.

 

I dont think it's a point of "not being in the proper mindset for simulation gaming", but as you said, the maturity level of some of the people crossing over. I dont have the skill (or time) to do any 3D building so I try and do various skinning, but there are kids nowadays that are learning graphic/digital imaging in school and are quick to learn and contribute. Then there are the ones I mentioned before who come in and expect their favorite aircraft modelled and placed in game tomorrow and are impatient when they dont get the result they want. These are the ones who give the rest a bad name and lead the more seasoned simmers to avoid helping, when repeated pushes toward the README/FAQ/Knowledge Base have fallen on deaf ears.

 

We need more younger simmers to make the jump from console to PC simming in order to keep what few producers we've got left, to keep putting out something new. But at the same time, they need to be willing to learn a few things to keep the sim going.

 

Glad we can chat about this in a civil manner.

[MigHound 0]

There are a few in the works though I doubt we'll ever see the likes of the 90's again

 

SevenG : F/A-18C study sim

Jet Thunder : Falklands dim

XXX XXXX : I cant remember the title but theres also one set around the USAF from basic flight training up to front line operations. Dont expect to see it any time soo though.

 

Craig

 

The third title you're thinking of is "Fighter Ops"

[MetalMania 0]

There are a few in the works though I doubt we'll ever see the likes of the 90's again

 

SevenG : F/A-18C study sim

Jet Thunder : Falklands dim

XXX XXXX : I cant remember the title but theres also one set around the USAF from basic flight training up to front line operations. Dont expect to see it any time soo though.

 

Craig

 

I think the one you're thinking of is "Fighter Ops". That one sounds almost like they're trying to bite off too much to me. Uber realism from top to bottom for everything. Don't get me wrong, I hope they can pull it off and the peeks of stuff they've shown are fantastic but like you said - don't expect anything soon. Already been in development for a couple of years I think.

 

On the PC vs consoles subject, well it's more expensive for one thing to have a rig capable of running the latest and greatest software compared to modern consoles. I don't want to get into the "BS, you can build a killer gaming PC for the price of a PS3" argument. The average person doesn't want to built it themselves, and if you're looking for a decently capable "off the shelf" system from a known manufacturer you're realistically probably looking at $1,000. And most of the (non sim) games are also available for the consoles and look just about as good if you don't have the latest $600 world beating graphics card.

 

As far as our particular realm here of flight sims - I don't know, are kids even fascinated by airplanes anymore? My cousins and nephews couldn't care less. Flight sims have been my main attraction since the 80's, but I didn't have Call of Duty as an option then either. I think the world in general has gotten into too much of an instant gratification mindset. Technology has removed so much waiting it's also skewed perception of "reasonable". I've spoken to kids just getting out of college that expect to just fall into $80,000 jobs. "Start at the bottom and move up? Screw that!". Good luck. Sorry, veering a little off topic.

[+Julhelm 266]

Instant Gratification has been around since the 80s and really took off the last 8 years as easy loans and seemingly unlimited credit enabled people to spend well over their limits. Of course kids will pick up that same mindset when they see their parents buying cars and 40" flatscreen TV's "when they want it".

[MetalMania 0]

It will be interesting to see how Maddox and SimBin's forays into consoles goes, with IL2-Birds of Prey and Race Pro. I would expect that these two titles will probably be the most "sim" oriented of their respective genres that any console has ever seen. I'm sure a lot of people are looking at it from the perspective of "that's it, the death of PC simming is upon us. They're all going to become console crap." I don't know, perhaps if scaleable enough they could serve as a bridge to regain some interest in the genre. Or maybe at least (and most practical) generate enough sales to allow the continuation of the PC lines by those developers alongside the console versions. At the end of the day it's a business and cash flow makes it all happen. I'm not saying I'm willing to abandon my PC to do it all on consoles either, but they ARE getting to be pretty darn powerful systems.

 

GM can't make Corvettes if they don't sell enough Malibus, Impalas and pickup trucks. Ok - maybe that's a bad example with the current economic situation and that company in particular but you get the point.

[SGCSG1 0]

It will be interesting to see how Maddox and SimBin's forays into consoles goes, with IL2-Birds of Prey and Race Pro. I would expect that these two titles will probably be the most "sim" oriented of their respective genres that any console has ever seen. I'm sure a lot of people are looking at it from the perspective of "that's it, the death of PC simming is upon us. They're all going to become console crap." I don't know, perhaps if scaleable enough they could serve as a bridge to regain some interest in the genre. Or maybe at least (and most practical) generate enough sales to allow the continuation of the PC lines by those developers alongside the console versions. At the end of the day it's a business and cash flow makes it all happen. I'm not saying I'm willing to abandon my PC to do it all on consoles either, but they ARE getting to be pretty darn powerful systems.

 

GM can't make Corvettes if they don't sell enough Malibus, Impalas and pickup trucks. Ok - maybe that's a bad example with the current economic situation and that company in particular but you get the point.

 

When you've got three hundred dollars in HOTAS for the PC it's hard to consider playing a console sim.

 

That said, I'm VERY interested in seeing the IL2 console game, just to see what happens to it in the market.

[MigBuster 2,861]

So the 4th Sim in Dev is Lead Pursuits successor to Falcon 4.0 - nothing released yet but im pretty hopeful something will be said about it soon. (14 days maybe)

 

Dont see why less kids would be interested in Jets - we are still fighting 2 wars involving them - and they still hold the status they always did - which is of an untouchable dream to get to fly one for most!

 

One issue could be that the news seems to report freindly fire incidents and bombing of innocents regularly - which could have a negative impact on common people - lets face it people hate bombers they always have - but love fighters because they protect the civilians by shooting down the bombers etc!!

 

You never know another Hollywood blockbuster to fuel the imagination and hey presto lol

[+ST0RM 145]

Dont see why less kids would be interested in Jets - we are still fighting 2 wars involving them - and they still hold the status they always did - which is of an untouchable dream to get to fly one for most!

 

Because our ever-so-great media leads one to believe that only ground forces are involved. You do not hear about the air assets unless they drop and kill something/someone significant or one crashes/blows up.

[JediMaster 451]

During the Cold War, Vietnam, Korea, WWII, WWI...the enemies all had their own planes they fought with.

 

There is no "terrorist AF" to tangle with. After the Gulf War almost 20 yrs ago there has been nothing since to really give planes a "heroic role" for all to see. It's like Storm said.