SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[+EricJ 3,932]

wondering on you guys take on this but was thinking of a part from The Warbirds where Jack Locke gets invited to fly a stored F-4E against a Mirage 2000. he tools around in the weeds awhile flying a max fuel conservatio profile while the Mirage is looking for him. then when the Mirage is gettin skosh fuel he zooms up gets the gun camera photage and RTB. how workable is just such a scenario esp. when the opponent is far more advaced than yourself? i usually fly A2G myself and first thing when RWR is screaming at me is to get on the deck and go fast (usually 200ft, 450-600 kts depending on loadout and where i am in mission). i usually complete the mission this way and might even get a -23 or two on the way home. wondered how it works for A2A though esp for DCA.

 

The F-4E against the Mirage 2000 in SF2 is a bit different from real life. But anything's possible, I just know that the AI sees better and I just don't feel safe flying the Phantom-E anyway, my .02$ at least in SF2. Then again Jack Locke is probably a skilled pilot as opposed to the pilot who flew the Mirage 2000.

 

Anyway, the best thing is if you fly a dedicated A2G bird like the E, then strike and retreat, rather than go looking for that kill. Half the time when I do strike missions in the Super I fly the route and avoid most air combat. But it's a hard call sometimes as if you bag targets on the ingress then your egress will be a little more tricky especially if you get jumped. Even then it's a matter of terrain masking, and how much you pray, and gas, how many AAMs you got, etc. But I prefer strike and retreat as opposed to balls to the wall ACM and then go to the target.

[+daddyairplanes 8,629]

for the record, the Mirage pilot in the book was a Dassault test pilot trying to make a sale to a Saudi prince. (the encounter would be important later in the book) prob great at flying technique, but short on tactics. and my only diff is that i would engage after iron on target. them bombs and Mav's slow ya down at bit at the merge dontcha think. of course it would be easier with a 4th gen Viper or Hornet, more so with the Super Bug (4.5 gen fighter?) than in an old St Louis Slugger. but as long as i dont get fixated on a particular target it always brings me home......

 

 

just for your dont feel safe flyin an E comment will hafta find and post Manfred Reitch's comments on transitioning back to the Phantom after flyin the Hornet a couple of years.......

Edited October 18, 2012 by daddyairplanes

[Caesar 305]

I think the thing to always remember, and I've made this point before, is that the pilot/aircrew is the single greatest deciding factor in air combat. If you look at E-M doghouses, power curves, etc. one aircraft might completely outclass another on paper, only to be defeated by that aircraft in 45 seconds by a pilot or aircrew that has better knowledge of his own aircraft, where it best performs, where it doesn't, and where it does so relative to his opponent. One of the ACE/AIM Tomcat pilots who later joined with the USAFR recalled that one of his most memorable Dissimilar Air Combat Training sorties was against an Active Air Force Lt Col flying the F-15C. Our USAFR pilot and his RIO were in the age-old F-4D Phantom II. The Lt Col, while all crews were doing pre-flight inspections, slapped the back of his Eagle to get the attention of his opponents, and said something to the effect of: "take a good look at the tail pipes, because this is the last time you'll see them today!" (i.e. I'm going to out turn, out climb, and out fight your antique and eat you like a grape). The end result was that the Eagle driver suffered severe pipper burns to the back of his neck, utterly embarrassed and defeated by what was to him a last-gen, solid-wing interceptor, which had no advantages over the Eagle from a charts perspective. The fight was apparently very quick.

 

This is not a unique example, just one to illustrate that above all else, the pilot makes the difference. You could cite hundreds of air combat exercises where "less-capable" aircraft have bettered others, and the F-4 "gunning" the Mirage 2000 isn't too much of a surprise to me, but it takes a good pilot or aircrew with excellent understanding of his jet, and his opponent's jet to do so.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Caesar

[+EricJ 3,932]

for the record, the Mirage pilot in the book was a Dassault test pilot trying to make a sale to a Saudi prince. (the encounter would be important later in the book) prob great at flying technique, but short on tactics. and my only diff is that i would engage after iron on target. them bombs and Mav's slow ya down at bit at the merge dontcha think. of course it would be easier with a 4th gen Viper or Hornet, more so with the Super Bug (4.5 gen fighter?) than in an old St Louis Slugger. but as long as i dont get fixated on a particular target it always brings me home......

 

 

just for your dont feel safe flyin an E comment will hafta find and post Manfred Reitch's comments on transitioning back to the Phantom after flyin the Hornet a couple of years.......

 

Fair enough point but again it's about personal preference. Like you I try and get rid of my A2G ordnance while I can, but then again I'll take a shot when necessary, and in some cases while enroute. So it's situation dependent really.

[saisran 84]

i dont really have this problem since im always in the tomcat. the only times i had this was when flying an older plane like the sader. but since i now have mountain thaw in my install i can now fly A2G mission on the sader without worrying about more capable jets intercepting. Those valleys provide good cover for hiding. :)

[saisran 84]

I tried to install OMT on SF2NA but for some reason it crashes. so went back to doing naval campaigns. For a several missions my wingie has been very reliable. So once again while flying CAP decided to let him take first shots once again. Hawkeye notified us on a couple of bandits on our nine. set radar range to 230 and got 2 squad inbound. 80nm out are 6 Mig-23's and at 120nm 4 or 6 Mig-29A. locked up the -23s and called my wing on it. he fired his first -54 and we waited. the bandits got into under 50nm and nothing... called him again launched 2 this time. he got two. this time the -23s are starting to lock me up. asked him to fire his remaining phoenix to the lead 23 whose now 23 Nm on my nose and locking me up. I thought he missed and i launched my first phoenix. as soon as i did his -54 hit the bandit. one 54 wasted. I now have 4x AIM-9M and 3x AIM-54C. The remaining -23 have turned tail while the -29 squad are now under 40nm and closing fast. I locked up the first 3 fulcrum and fired All my phoenix. one phoenix missed its target. and im now under radar lock from the remaining fulcrums. I asked my wing to engage the Migs as he still has 2 sparrows at his disposal but he decided which i later found out to go after a recon bear. I Climbed up to gain an altitude advantage against the 29-s radar guided missile. as soon as i got above cloud cover my rwr detected a radar lock on my 10. closest target view. the Mig-23 has doubled back and is now in a prime firing postion for a radar. I immediately turn into it. It let a missile loose. and since i got energy and still got leeway on the throttle i kept climbing while dumping flare. he fired another missile i rolled inverted and dive and rolled towards the Mig. We merged onto each other and i turned left into it got another radar lock on me this time the fulcrums are in play. got myself in a disadvantageous position where im 3v1 against well armed opponents. I called my wing to watch my six. this time he complied but hes 40nm out of range of his winders. I broke off with the mig-23 and went in head towards the fulcrums. they got nose on first to close for an AHM but just enough for an IRM. he fired one and i barell rolled the F-14B still heading towards them. dumping flares. ( the screenie would have looked great if i were able to catch it. belly view of the tom with flares and chaffs trailling, An R-73 curving past in the foreground barely missing the tomcats wing and heading for the flares. a topside view of the Mig-29 passing in the background was caught in one frame! and i missed the Prt Sc key!).

 

What happened next is my tomcat engaging a bandit almost getting into a firing solution and being forced to break by a missile lock by its buddies. a couple more faceshots attempted my the -29s. and luckily we were always too close and i was always too fast for it to track properly. The tide of battle turn when my wing finally able to catch up. and engaged one of the -29. with the other manoeuvring away from me. i broke engagement and went after the -23 which is trying to lock me up. i did a split S which took me behind and under the -23. i got a 4 sec? window enough for me to get a winder up the -23's tailpipe. The Mig-29 was a tough fight. we have both burned a fair amount of fuel and he having 2 R-73 left. i think he's now have better T-W. The one circle fight is going for its favor and im running low on energy. i dove to regain a bit of energy and powered up and climb for a loop. the mig failed to follow the climb and i found it still turning below. pushed rudder and flicked the nose on the mig. got tone and fox1. he dove and tried to turn tighter but the -9M tracked true.

 

Went and called my wing. for some reason he got himself infront of the mig and is on the defensive. still got plenty of fuel for a Full burn to mach 2. was able to reach them pretty quick and the shot was fairly straight forward. both of them exhausted they're missiles and the fulcrum was intent on getting a gun kill on my wing. they were undulating in the vertical plane and all i have to do is make sure i got seamlock on the right bird and let a winder loose..

 

The engagement was very very scary but the ending was a bit uneventful... on a 1v1 the Flogger would have been an easy kill even without long ranged munition and i can definitely go head to head with a fulcrum fairly well. but having 2 fulcrums constantly getting radar lock on you while the Flogger sets you up from the opposite direction was a bit too much to handle. if i wasn't in the tomcat i would have wiped out earlier.

[Do335 382]

ummm... perhaps a classical f-86 vs mig15 is in order? i.e. 86e vs mig15 and 86f vs mig15bis

[Do335 382]

tried it myself... i suck. 1st mission got owned by a yak-9p; 2nd mission entered a spin, couldn't recover and ejected; 3rd mission outnumbered 3 to 1, dived down to the weeds and blown to bits proper by the fagots cannonballs. after that i had to watch 2, 3 and 4 shot down by the migs one by one. hell.... the 50cals lack a punch. scores many hits but just wouldn't down the mig.

 

atm thanks again kaw team! quite a immersive theater and new challenge

Edited December 13, 2012 by Do335

[aube 9]

I'd be interested in someone flying the F-100 against the MiG-15/17. For the life of me I can't seem to get a hang of flying the Super Sabre, it feels like it bleeds off all it's speed in the gentlest of turns, and takes forever to accelerate back to speed afterwards. It's the only stock aircraft that seems to completely frustrate me, so some insight on how to handle it properly would be great!

 

 

That's about as successful as a fight gets for me, generally ends up far worse...and even there, I'm seriously just lucky to have not gotten shot down when I had two Frescos tight on my tail...

[saisran 84]

Would love to see the DACT masters do this one ^ got little success with anything other than a tomcat. :)

 

To be honest man you did pretty well in my book. old planes aren't really the easiest to deal with.

Edited January 18, 2013 by saisran

[+EricJ 3,932]

Well from an inexperienced in that aircraft perspective, you probably would have gotten good with a winder shot (but that's a percentage in its own...) with the amount of lead time you had. Personally my opinion is that the -15 has a better turn rate (even in a Super Hornet its somewhat of a challenge) than the Sabre. Your first kill was luck and getting in those turning fights put you at a disadvantage, as well as your AI mates. Personally if you can do better strike missions with it then I'd do that with that plane.

[+SupGen 78]

I'd be interested in someone flying the F-100 against the MiG-15/17. For the life of me I can't seem to get a hang of flying the Super Sabre, it feels like it bleeds off all it's speed in the gentlest of turns, and takes forever to accelerate back to speed afterwards. It's the only stock aircraft that seems to completely frustrate me, so some insight on how to handle it properly would be great!

 

 

That's about as successful as a fight gets for me, generally ends up far worse...and even there, I'm seriously just lucky to have not gotten shot down when I had two Frescos tight on my tail...

 

ummm...That was actualy pretty sucessful; the number of real life pilots that got four kills in a single mission was pretty small. That being said, from the looks of things, you spent most of that fight going dangerously slow, well below the Hun's corner speed. In large part, this is because you were fighting the AI's fight; you were letting them lead you around by the nose, so to speak. You were flying pure pursuit. This isn't the most efficient way to do it in any aircraft; in the Hun it's the worst. The SuperSabre doesn't benefit from much in the way of Area Ruling, that's why it "bleeds speed in the turns and takes forever to accelerate". You need to get outside of the Mig's plane of Motion, get your speed back up, and come back for another pass. In other words, Boom and Zoom rather than Yank and Bank. If you want a real pro's input on all this, go here: http://simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html#briefing and read at least all four parts of "It's All A Matter Of Perspective". You won't regret it.

Edited January 19, 2013 by SupGen

[aube 9]

ummm...That was actualy pretty sucessful; the number of real life pilots that got four kills in a single mission was pretty small. That being said, from the looks of things, you spent most of that fight going dangerously slow, well below the Hun's corner speed. In large part, this is because you were fighting the AI's fight; you were letting them lead you around by the nose, so to speak. You were flying pure pursuit. This isn't the most efficient way to do it in any aircraft; in the Hun it's the worst. The SuperSabre doesn't benefit from much in the way of Area Ruling, that's why it "bleeds speed in the turns and takes forever to accelerate". You need to get outside of the Mig's plane of Motion, get your speed back up, and come back for another pass. In other words, Boom and Zoom rather than Yank and Bank. If you want a real pro's input on all this, go here: http://simhq.com/_ai...y.html#briefing and read at least all four parts of "It's All A Matter Of Perspective". You won't regret it.

 

Happened to be recording on a flight that was more successful than normal. I guess I kinda suck at getting separation with the Hun, it's something I do try to do with the Mystere and Phantom and can pull off reasonably well...I guess patience is what's giving me problems, which is no shock. I'll take a look at those articles at any rate. I'm a lot better than I was a few years ago, but obviously have plenty yet to learn. Thanks for the input.

[+EricJ 3,932]

I guess I should post this anyway...

 

Me: F/A-18F with EPE, 4 x AIM-9X, 6 x AIM-120D, gun and centerline tank

Opposition: F-35A with 2 x AIM-9X, some AMRAAMs

 

Before the real Pentagon release of what the F-35 can do it was a pretty good dogfighter, but now? WIth the released as of so far capabilities it was a walk in the park. With the limited gs (around 4.5) max pull the Lightning II wouldn't do anything drastic (it seemed though that the AI was actually restricting itself). I merged with the aircraft and it started to get out of the kill slot and tried a few times to get out of it, but really... there isn't much to say more other than I got tired of playing with it and did a HOBS shot with a 9X and went back to the deck.

 

Takeaways: To be fair... the Lightning will come out of the problems its facing and the max G will hopefully improve, as this is based on current, not future data. Once more promising numbers come out of it then we'll see, but furthermore shows how easy a less than maneuverable plane against a more maneuverable one, and always if you have the kill slot, keep the kill slot.

[+EricJ 3,932]

Me: F/A-18F with 6 x AIM-120D (ravenclaw_007 beta versions), 4 x AIM-9X, tank and gun

Opposition: F-14D (96) with 4 x AIM-54CE, 2 x Sparrow, 2 x AIM-9L/Ms, gun, tanks

 

This isn't so much a run and guns knife fight but a BVR shot that I thought would be interesting to share. For a long time the AIM-54 is still (along with the AA-9) considered the ultimate long range AAM. After using the D version of the AMRAAM is now a solid contender. Typical setup was far away from the Tomcat and I close in on him. Now me in the pesky Super Hornet never stood a chance because the AWG-9 radar was burning through my ECM and therefore I would get shot down. So I reached a height of 13,000+ feet and waited until I could lock him up but he had already detected me and so therefore a good rule of thumb when dealing with the Tomcat is that if he's got a lock, then he's got a Pheonix on the way and consider yourself unlucky. Anyway, I had managed to lock him up and waited for the shoot cue and when it came I waited a few seconds and fired one AMRAAM. Next I did what is called an F-Pole (those of you who played Flanker 2 know what it is) but anyway, to perform an F-Pole you launch your missile and throttle to idle, coast and gain altitude (usually 2-3000ft) and keep the target locked up. This does two things: First, to the AI it looks like you're hanging in the air and second, it delays the time of the opposing aircraft in getting a lock on you. After a two or three minutes the Tomcat was shot down, never expending a missile.

 

Takeaways: The AIM-120D is not a silver bullet, but then again it's a lot better than dealing with the Tomcat and you can outrange it. But be cognizant of your own altitude as if he's still got an edge that if he burns through your ECM, you're toast. But nothings fair in war and using the F-Pole shortens the time down. I probably could have stayed outside of being locked (I think it was around 80 miles or so, not sure) without the F-Pole, but I'd rather not take the chance.

[Caesar 305]

From the Tomcat perspective, a lot depends on the variant of AIM-54 you're using. Using the C ECCM the result against a Echo Super Bug was this:

 

Not very surprising. The APG-71 burned through the ECM the instant the Bug took off and I had a Phoenix on the way as it raised its landing gear. An A or B or baseline C, however, and the story is different. Expect several misfires and a few of your missiles to go stupid, and probably eat an AMRAAM as a result. As it stood, my first C ECCM/Sealed went dumb and I fired a second immediately after. This one hit.

 

(Shot 2)

 

I think something to bear in mind is the modelling of missiles in the TW series. If you go off and shoot a missile, AMRAAM, Phoenix, X-ray Sidewinder or otherwise, at Rmax, it ain't gonna hit if the target turns 90 degrees or beyond to the launching airframe. This is entirely open-source information. If you were to shoot a F-model Sparrow at, say, 12 miles, but your target has an RWR, notices your lock, and breaks hard left or right, the distance the Sparrow has to travel to intercept increases compared to a target that continues on the same velocity vector (i.e. right at the launching aircraft), and the likelihood of the missile getting a kill is far less, or impossible. Thus, if you fire Rmax AMRAAM or Phoenix at a target, and that target changes its vector, in the real world, don't expect your missile to make the intercept. In the TW world, however, it's a bit different. Even turning and running can get you shot down if the opposing missile is shot at RMax.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Caesar

[+EricJ 3,932]

Every time I kill a Tom a Super Bug has to make the sacrifice... Aspect was head on so there was little chance of him maneuvering (my radar isn't modeled with the same frequency as a Tom's RWR would pick up so that may be an advantage) and I was jamming, forgot to mention that...

 

Even though... the Pheonix is largely outclassed by the newer D model AMRAAM so while we spar (I think jokingly, still have a lot of respect for the Tomcat) its all in good fun, and not to piss people off.

Edited January 20, 2013 by EricJ

[Caesar 305]

Yes, EricJ, it does seem we have a "tit-for-tat" with our two respective birds. And it is a good point that I was also jamming at the time. Something I do wonder, is if the AI immediately initiates jamming upon takeoff or what, because I got lock on the Bug at over 80NM, which tells me he may not have been jamming at the time, or it could be just due to the APG-71's humongous power output. It wouldn't surprise me if the Super Bug got lock on the Turkey at very long range, even contending with the ASPJ, due to the Tomcat's size and lack of any sort of passive stealth characteristics.

 

What else I will say is that in both our cases, the AI did not try to pole the incoming missile. The Bug in my case kept straight on, and the Turkey in your case did the same, so that probably didn't help the AI aircrew. I'm thinking about trying to mess around with the thrust and drag characteristics of the Phoenix and other weapons based upon the fact that real-world missiles effective ranges are affected by their target's aspect. This does seem modeled in the TW early Sidewinders and Sparrows (fire an AIM-7E-2 at Rmax against a turning target and it runs out of juice), but not necessarily with improved models. Will report back on this later (maybe a few weeks later; I'm working on early Turkey schemes at the moment.)

[+EricJ 3,932]

The newer missiles are affected too, I tried a RAID shot with two D's and the two target F-4s didn't get hit and their aspect was away from me.

 

As for jamming I have no idea though I will mention that the APG-71 was clearly detecting me and my ASPJ is a bit... modified I guess based on guesstimation over the newer improvements, so he was trying to get a lock and got a missile instead... One test I did I think a year or two ago didn't work for me as I got pummeled by an F-14D with the CE Pheonixes. Matter of fact I'll run the test again without jamming and see if I just got a range advantage or a good jammer...

[+EricJ 3,932]

Me: F/A-18F with 6 x AIM-120D (my version), 4 x AIM-9X, tank and gun

Opposition: F-14D (96) with 4 x AIM-54CE, 2 x Sparrow, 2 x AIM-9L/Ms, gun, tanks

 

Unlike the above this was without me jamming the Tomcat... Started off head on aspect (both of us) and I managed to lock on the Tomcat at 111 miles and fired. I immediately F-Poled but that didn't make a difference as he got off two shots (I want to say one missed or both hit but either way I was shot down) at 99 miles. Needless to say after finally deciding to head for the ocean (which I should have skimmed) and threw on the jammer it was too late, even with the decoy deployed. However I got a posthumous kill by getting the Tomcat, but things to remember:

 

1. Don't mess with a D Tomcat with Pheonix missiles

2. Jam the joker and stay out of locking range, if the warning says he's launched a missile and you've got some terrain, learn how to terrain mask.

3. Try to put the missile on the 3/9 line but then again you're toast if you don't have terrain.

 

Takeaways and a lesson learned... Jam the D Tomcat and plink at it at long range with AIM-120Ds

[Caesar 305]

Think your takeaways are good, Eric. If I had to provide a Tomcat aspect, it'd probably be the exact same thing, jam, fire the Phoenix as far away as possible and run! The AMRAAM-D ain't some missile you wanna dick with when its coming your way! I can't list how many times I've been bagged after killing the launching aircraft when active missiles are involved, even those with a smaller RMax than Phoenix, especially when I'm dumb enough to get inside their launch range. ACEVAL/AIMVAL still beckons from 36 years ago; shoot the guy before he knows you're there, and never fly into his envelope!

[+EricJ 3,932]

Well the thing is when jamming I never ran... I F-Pole and keep my nose towards him and he still flies right into the AMRAAM, so if you jam and get no lock or notification he's firing a missile then you should be okay, just as long as you fire first. I'm pretty sure this way I can pull off a RAID shot but that's a gamble...

[+EricJ 3,932]

Ugh... I fly a few missions in Strike Fighters 2 and look where I"m at...

 

Me: F-35C with 4.5 g limit, a whole mess of 9Xs and some AIM-120s

Opposition: F-16CJ with a few AIM-120s, and a couple winders.

 

Started off behind the Falcon and mindful of the current limit (and I'm assure temporary) on the JSF series. I chose the C for this hop and well... I guess you have to really push the jet to get what you want, though I may have benefitted with a larger wing as well. Anyway, I managed to turn and allow the Falcon to pursue me, and yes he did, coming around rather quickly and getting on my six with me dumping flares (even as he had his nose on me) as we went along until I did a loop or two (seemed like forever) and he managed to break out of it and into an energy circle. I managed to pull nose a bit and let a 9X fly, and I tell you what it was just a beautiful sight seeing the smoke trail flying into the Falcon.

 

Takeaways. The g-limit on the JSF series is a hinderance (a big one) but pushing the plane anyway against a more mobile opponent (No, I won't try it against a Super Hornet) and winning. Plus it was the rare instances where a successful launch of an AAM in an energy fight. The slower speed allowed me to pull the nose harder and complete the intercept, i.e. leading the Falcon to give my 'winder a better envelope. And it paid off and had the 9X missed I was still in a good position to fire again as he would be going defensive then and a lot less interested in an energy circle. But... remember the 4.5 g limit is a temporary thing and just a little reality in place for this problem.

Edited January 20, 2013 by EricJ

[saisran 84]

Nice DACT guys, great read. Good to know you guys are doing this again. BTW, that damage model on the F-14 looks great but can the meek warhead in the AMRAAM do that amount of damage or is the RealLife -D version got a bigger punch as well as range? I kinda thought AMRAAMs have half the range the Phoenix does.

[+EricJ 3,932]

Older models (C-7 and before) but the D is supposed to outrange it as far as I know.