SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[cougar_1979 37]

While testing the new F-14 i remembered that back in the day when i first flew the Super Hornet i noticed the fuel quantities were about 2.2 times larger then they should be. On the d-load thread one of the guys mentioned he modified them himself to be more representative and i always wanted to do the same, i was just too lazy. Tonight i did it, but as feared this lowered weight made the Super Bug a "Mega Monster Bug" that sustains 9g at angles 10 in military power. So i want to ask you guys (especially Eric), did you change your Super Bugs? And did id so, how did you change the thrust values to match?

Cheers and happy flying.

P.S. nev vids comming up soon.

[+Crusader 2,050]

...

 

Speaking of frustrating gun sight. the viper has the most frustrating one as the cone doesn't really simulate the real one on the viper.

 

Ive worked on a fix for that issue (stopped in mid July), implementing the old style LCOS sight ...

It started as a quick project off another avionics update...

But probably ends in a bigger update since there was no good-working easy solution (iirc)

It will have some so far unused functions (not sight related) ... see the pic... ( OLD WIP screenie, unfinished)

[cougar_1979 37]

That would really help with those high-g lead aims

[cougar_1979 37]

This was not supposed to be the video i would upload, but alas.... i ran out of disk space and it didn't finish recording. It was much more intense and "costly" for my flight. I usually don't do BVR DACTs, but in this one things went south pretty quick. In short, we were trailing some Su interceptors on our CAP and just as we were about to engage them, we started getting blips on our RWR's as 4 MiG-23 MLAs engaged us on our flank. The resulting furball ended with 2 of my flight down and 8 of them splashed. But as i said this is not that fight that got recorded....... Only the opeing moves are here. I'll try to replicate the fight if possible, it just won't be the same with the element of surprise gone.

Anyway, we started with them at 11, 20+ nm away. I give my 2nd section order to attack, i lock on one of the contacts, fire a sparrow and start bringing the contact as close to my 2 as possible, engaging ECM at the same time, to make me a more dificult target. After several long seconds of no kill confirmation i order my wingman to attack my target. Just then i recieve a splash one. I quickly get my RIO to lock up another contact and it's another FOX 1. This one is a go as well and it's another splash. The AIM-7's love me today........ Just then i get a SAM launch and .... the video ends...... My evasive action led me to pick up the second group of contacts and go after them, while the second section tangoes with the Su's. This will cost me my wingman and the section 2 leader. We went into the merge with only 5 miles and over 1000knots closing speed. This made our Sparrows less usefull. I got one with a Winder but my wingmaen got shot down by cannon fire. In a hard break a got on the MiG leader six and dispatched him with a 2nd winder. As i gunned down the 3rd one the 4th fired something at me. What ever it was it detonated too close for comfort but the Cat didn't break apart just yet. I reversed my turn and gunned him down in flat scissors. I then proceeded to scan the sky for the other fight. I located the contacts some 20-30 miles away. One was hostile the other not (the FF did its job). I let the hostile eat a Phoenix and the fight was over. I never found out how #3 got shot down. Maybe it was a MiG-23 that got him with a heater......

Well, that is all for tonight.... hope to have more for the thread soon
Cheers and good flying

[cougar_1979 37]

I tried to reproduce the fight, but 2 things went in the way..... First, i guess the random part made this an issue, the bandits traded places. In the original fight, the Su's were in the front, this the sneakier and more dangerous 23's hit us in the back. In this fight it was the other way around. The 23's were in the front and after we engaged them, the Su's could not acquite us fast enough to help their mates. This effectively allowed our flight to engage the bandits piecemeal.

Second, my wingmen fought much more efficiently. This added to the speed in which we could eliminate one threat before engaging the other.

Ah, i nearly forgot. The number of bandits changes as well. Either that or i counted wrong the first time. Anyway, this time there was a total 10 of them. Still, after taking care of the MLA's, the Su's as you can see, were way to easy as prey.

[Caesar 305]

Great vids, Cougar!  One thing I noticed, when the bandit in the second video fires his first missile at you (gets lock and immediately shoots), you start chucking flares, rather than chaff...seemed a little odd to me?  Or was that particular bandit only carrying only IRMs?

[cougar_1979 37]

Great vids, Cougar!  One thing I noticed, when the bandit in the second video fires his first missile at you (gets lock and immediately shoots), you start chucking flares, rather than chaff...seemed a little odd to me?  Or was that particular bandit only carrying only IRMs?

Thanks mate!

I wish it was so! However in this case, it was more what happens when you fly at 4:30AM and you barely keep awake. I was using 90% of what was left of my brain capacity just to get the missile as close to my 3-9 without losing my own lock i kept hitting flare instead of chaff launch. That and the fact that the last dozen fights were mostly WVR merges with all aspect heaters........ i think i may be developing a variation of the Pavlov reflex, only this one involves flares

Edited October 31, 2015 by cougar_1979

[cougar_1979 37]

Here is the 2nd flight of the batch 1 DACT engagements. Again i fly the F-18A, this time against an F-14A. I have 2 Limas and 2 Sparrows and he has 4 Limas. The Sparrows are here for backup and balance, i do not intend to fire them in his face. Also it should be noted that the adversary is a 7g limited AI version, to prevent overbleeds.

I start by truning into the RWR threat and engagin burner to build up some energy. Almost right away i notice the first disadvantage of flying a LWF against a heavy bird. My radar just can't lock through his jammer, even within 20nm. Finally around 15nm i get a good lock and i prepare for the merge. At 10nm i go to idle engines to reduce my IR signature and make a slow turn into the bandit, constnatly diving and trying to keep him at 20-30 degrees off bore. The Bug loses airspeed much faster then then F-16 or the F-14, so i'll have to careful as the distance closes.

At around 4nm he fires of the first Lima. I kick off some flares and turn into the bandit. Almost immediately he gets off another one. I continue kicking off flares and follow on with my break. The second Lima misses too so i reverse and turn right at the F-14. I engage full AB and go for him. We engage in an oblique 2 circle fight, with me high and him low. The first 2 revolutions show he is quite able to match my sustained turn rate, even with a slight vertical component added on both sides. I try in icrease the vertical component of out turning cicles but it doesn not work in my favor. We are still at neutral after each revolution. I'll have to think of another way to get on his 6.

On my next dive i decide to use some of my nose pointing ability and risk bleeding off more energy then i would like to, in order to lock him up and get him defensive. It doesn't work quite as i like because he still has enough energy to just sweep across my HUD, but the Hornet handles so easy in the low mach, i am able to almost instantaneously follow up with another break down in the 280's and pull enough lead to gun him down. The missiles went unused this time, but the gun was handy.

Takeaways...... The sueprb high alpha handling and the docile nature of the Hirnet's FCS allows for turn authority almost unmatched by other planes. You just don't want one on your tail (not that you'd want anyone on your tail), especially not down in the weeds. The downside is, in a multi bandit environment, getting the fight this slow can be risky, and you would be wise to either rely on your wingman or end the fight quickly. Once slow, the Hornet is not fast on recovering lost energy and your fuel quantity is relatively low, so you must be careful not to be dragged in an endurance match either.

[cougar_1979 37]

And the last fight for the weekend, the Bug VS an F-15C Eagle, armed with 4 Mikes.

The F-15 and the F-14 being supposedly similar, i expected this fight to go pretty much the same way as the previous one. So i did what i did the previous time. I got the lock a bit closer to the bandit i think, but i can't be sure. At around 10nm i went to idle and fastened my seatbelt. At around 4-5nm i pucnhed the flares and started my evasive action. Hoever the missile warning never came. As i lost visual contact for a few seconds, i never figured it if he actually did launch but the missile(s) failed, or did he fail to launch all together. 

Never the less, as broke through the mile, i reversed into him and plugged full AB. He went low, i went high and we compelted our first revolution almost at the same time, with me getting a nose on no more then 1/2 a second first. As he went over the egg above me, i got my lift vector on him and followed him up. I got over the top at a real slow IAS, but that only helped me to point my nose on him and switched to missiles. The winders started growling and i let off a missile. But either the closure or the aspect were to high, or maybe the tone wasn't a good and the missile failed to track so i took a hard break into the right to follow him as he passed by me. We got real close, too close for a missile shot so i went for a guns kill. Something felt wrong though. The Bug felt a bit sluggish in the pitch compared to the previous fights. Yhis threw off my aiming suffitiently to miss my first 3-4 bursts. However with each second i got more and more behind him, until i finally got directly on his 6 and the next burst connected.

As he burst into flaming debreas around me i switched to internal view and noticed i have forgotten to ditch the central fuel tank and the extra pair of Sparrows from my Hornet (they come with the default A-A load). That explains why the bird felt a bit sluggish...... it did not explain how the Eagle turned out to be an even easier opposition.
Well.... maybe it's just me getting better in the F-18 with every flight.

That's it for now guys, i hope you liked the last 3 fights. Hope to see you soon again. Safe flying!

[cougar_1979 37]

I had a time for a quick DACT this afternoon. I decided to go against the Hornet's "nemesis", the MiG-29A. I armed him with 4 R-60's and got 4 Winders for myself, instead of the usual 2 Sparrow 2 Winder load.

Getting a lock on a target with no jamming was easy. I turned on my own jammers, plugged full AB and proceeded to "slide" into the merge. At 10nm i went engine idle as usual and started preparing myself to launch flares. At 4-5 miles i started punching out flares and went into a left break. However he didn't fire at all! Just like the Eagle.... I flew both jets just to make sure they had opperational missiles, but they both failed to fire their IR. Can R-60's acquire from the front? I reversed into him and switched to external view just to check he has the missiles...... Yep, they are all accounted for.

I hop back into the pit, but my excursion has made me lost eyeball on the bandit. I look around the sky, on the RWR and back out the cockpit until i finally see him one o clock high. I try to go after him, but the climb has bled me dry and i lose him again. Guessing he is probably turning hot to get around me by now, i decide to risk it and "curl" inside his turn cycle, thus:
1.depriving hime of a good angle
2. reacquiring him visually.

I go high to lose speed and cut down my turn radius and drope my nose easier if needed. Et, voila! There he is, 11 o clock low, doing a right hand turn. I unload, let the nose drop and build some energy. Finally i am in a position to go after him. I get an early lock, but the angle is too off for a good missile shot. I decide to try a gun tracking solution, but the MiG manages the energy state far too good to keep the piper long enough on him. I assume he can go on like this until he rans out of fuel (which has happenned before). I would preffer to find a way of finishing this fight before that or before he slams into the literal hard deck in his downward spiral (which has also happenned before).

Geting a nose on turns out to be easy, connecting the bursts without cheating and firing bellow the nose however isn't. After 3 itterations though, i manage to close the angle completely and he runs out of sky to spiral down so he levels his wings and goes up. I get a good tone, send a Winder his way, but either the ground or the flares or the current mental state of the seaker, makes the missile go full retard. The Mig seams to float for a bit and recover his energy and then..... WHOA i never say that kind of break before! It's like he almost made a full 1/4 turn in a couple of seconds. I instinctively try to follow and bleed my jet in the process......... even now not so sure if it was a good idea. I could have gone up.... I almost lost him for a 3rd time, but fortunately the Bug can bring his nose around even when very slow, so a few tactical locks get me offensive again. I try to remeber my own advice...... unload, build, expend...... unload, build, expend..... It works, i'm back on his 6. Good tone, missile away, good flares, bad missile....

He breaks again but this time i follow an oblique pattern and slide back right into him. Two more breaks, and i am on his 6 once more. I have a good tone and i fire just as he climbs to the sun kicking flares. I think this Mike will get spoofed as well, but to my surprise the balst finds the target. Splash one!

Overal, one of the hardest fights i've had so far and definitely the hardest one in the Hornet. The MiG is an extremely capable energy fighter. If left hight on energy it can buzz around at very high turning rates and can climb like it's nobody's busines. It's low endurance is the primary weakness as well as the low speed handling. The second one is hard to explore with an AI that never blacks out though. This calls for an alternative approach..... if you can't turn with him, stay inside him. If hee bleeds you can saddle on his back, if he turns and burns he'll round of the fuel. If he goes up....... pray you are within 1/2 Pi radians of him. Otherwise just extend and either bug out or reacquire.

[+Crusader 2,050]

The later model R-60MK is all-aspect, it was the first missile integrated with the MiG-29 helmet sight.

[cougar_1979 37]

Thanks mate! I just checked the flight history and the missiles were R-60M. I guess that explains it all

[Stratos 3,167]

Guys, any tip to fight with the Mirage III and the Nesher?

[Caesar 305]

Stratos,

 

I think there's a few Mirage III fights in here; last one I did was back on page 30, towards the bottom.  

 

http://combatace.com/topic/62762-sf2-series-dact-reports-and-related-a2a-discussions-game-only/page-30

 

This was before we were doing videos commonly, so it's pretty much a written debriefing.  Don't have too much time in that bird, though, so I probably did a lot wrong.

[+Crusader 2,050]

Like a F-4.. energy fighter. Vertical action. hard turns only for 90° or so,. then its a brick.

 

I flew the MIIIOFA vs a F-14A_74 , started at ~30k ft, head-on, fuel 50% both, guns only

Managed to evade the numerous 20mm bursts coming from all angles

fight got lower and lower

at about 10k or so I got some nose position on the 14, when the 14 stalled out earlier than me and

I was able to roll/slide my nose into it

that got the AI driver (set to excellent) thinking (or so..) and he decided to drop his nose... which after a short time

sent him into "avoid ground" and recover mode ... i used that time to dive after him and let fly with 30mm when he

was busy with accelerating/extending

and that was the end.

 

[cougar_1979 37]

Still can't fly, but that looks like a good assessment. Avoid sustained turning fights against 70's onward opposition and try too keep your energy up. You are also small, use that to your advantage in nose to nose.

[Stratos 3,167]

Just like the first fight, the first loop results in an advantageous high position, but the gun shot isn't easy.  I get some lead and fire, but none of the shots connect.  Looks like I'm coming back up and around.  But, I don't have enough energy again, and as I start my second loop, I continue only because I know if I do anything else (turn, Split-S) the Hunter will have me.

 

I'm not a english native speaker, can you please describe the "loop" , maneuver?

 

For Crusader and Cougar, I'm fighting against MiG-17's and Hunters, but also tons of MiG-21's. If I try to keep my speed high I just finish myself doing head on passes against the enemies. Any idea? Also, should I keep doing zoom and booms and trying to get those guys when they stall?

[cougar_1979 37]

Uh-oh, MiG-17s are the UFO's of the cold war SF2. Avoid turning with them at all cost. Even vertical or other out of plane maneuvers can be tricky to implement against them. I.E. i once had one follow me in a zoom climb in a NAVY F-4 up to 60000ft. The 21's should be roughly equivalent to the MIII. My hand is still messed up so i can't test my words, but you should be able to have a relative parity against it. I never flew the Hunters unfortunately..... If you keep ending up in head on passes, then yes, pushing for the vertical is the best way to go. But don't limit yourself to zoom and boom. Oblique turns, high Yo-Yo -s and other out of plane maneuvers are most helpful. Use the gravity assist in your zoom to tighten your turn radius and then dive in back to regain lost airspeed. Always aim your lift vector not on where the bandit/bogie is, but where it will be when you will complete the maneuver. It's tricky and developing the spacial awareness required for it takes some time, but with some practice you can become quite proficient in no time. Try looking for some of the DACT reports that involve F-4's or F-8's going up against MiGs 17s and 21s for a more visual illustration of what i'm trying to say.

I hope this helps!

P.S. I think Caesar was referring to a positive G loop, the so called inside loop.

[Caesar 305]

P.S. I think Caesar was referring to a positive G loop, the so called inside loop.

 

Yep!  That's prezactly it.

 

With respect to the MiG-17's, I did upload a limited variant of the Fresco data.inis a couple pages back to try to match the real-world reports of loss of control authority at speeds around 450 knots+ (caused by no hydraulics helping the pilot to overcome the aerodynamic forces on the tail).  If you choose to use that, keep your energy up, and if the Frescos try to turn with you, they'll wind up sitting ducks.  BUT!  Remember that if they slow down (use speed brake, for example), they'll get that authority back quick!  Otherwise, yes, the MiG-17 is one of the most UFO-like aircraft in SF2.

[Stratos 3,167]

Cannot find the data Caesar, maybe I'm not searching properly enough. But the fact is that fighting with the Mirage is not easy, need to keep trying. Against the MiG-21 I feel they turn a bit better than me, anything to counter that?

[Caesar 305]

For the modified MiG-17s, they're on page 57:

 

http://combatace.com/topic/62762-sf2-series-dact-reports-and-related-a2a-discussions-game-only/page-57

 

Think it's about 9 posts down.  I only did the MiG-17F.  Drop into the MiG-17F folder (I think if you make them read-only, the game won't try to delete them).  You can then modify the other MiG-17s if you desire.

 

With respect to the Mirage III vs the MiG-21, I'll have to take the bird up and see how it flies.  Will check it out and post my findings.

[Caesar 305]

Just flew a mission in the Mirage IIICJ Shahak against a MiG-21F-13.  I came out on top, but it took probably 8-9 minutes or so.  Some general thoughts:

 

The Shafrir-2 sucks.

On the occasions where I was able to get the MiG-21 dead-on the nose, the missile would not achieve tone.  It not only has to have the target's exhaust pointing at the missile, it has to be DEAD CENTER with no other possible heat-source in the way (e.g. ground, sun, etc.).  Even on the occasion I achieved tone, the missile came off stupid.  Reminds me a lot of the AIM-9B.  I actually fired my first missile in frustration when the MiG's tailpipe was in the middle of my windscreen, thinking "maybe the tone is just jacked up?"  Nope!  Came off stupid.

 

The Mirage IIICJ has pretty decent alpha capabilities, but not as good as the MiG-21.

The MiG-21 was always able to get its nose pointed at me before I was able to get mine pointed at it at slow speeds.  Generally, the Mirage III was able to sustain about 23-24 degrees true alpha in the low 200's of knots.

 

The Mirage IIICJ's sustained turning performance against the MiG-21 is mediocre, but adequate.

I was able to achieve around 5.5-6g sustained turns at between .8 and .9M at 10,000 feet, around 5.8-6.2g at 5,000 feet between the same Mach numbers, and 6-7g on the deck.  As the fuel burned down, I did get an over 9g turn on during a harsh break turn, but both the "g" and the speed burned down pretty quick.  Problem is that the MiG-21 was always able to accomplish its turn more quickly than I was.  It would always get nose on before I could, and was typically in the 250-350KIAS region, while I was in the 500+ region (wider radius).

 

Where there seems to be the most mismanagement of energy by the AI MiG-21 is when it pushes into the vertical.  I found that I could fly vertical loops with the MiG, and it would run out of energy before I did, since it entered with less.  I would enter with at least 450KIAS, if not over 500, and burn down to the mid-300's by the top of the loop.  The MiG would enter with around 350, and could usually follow me through one loop.  By the second, it would run out of energy, or fall out and start turning.  This is how I got onto the MiG's tail twice.

 

The problem from here is that while pulling down from the top of the loop, I'd have less energy, and less ability to follow the MiG.  He'd be on the run, just outside gun parameters in a right or left turn.  I'd have to drop my nose to gain some energy, and rudder the nose up to try to get the pipper on.  What caused the fight to end was that I drove the MiG into BINGO fuel, and he was trying to escape.  He flew relatively straight and level trying to escape, which allowed me to get nose on, and as he began a right turn to try to shake me, I finally knocked him out of the sky with the guns.

 

Other thoughts

I used low altitude to help me on a number of occasions.  After my first one-circle turn with the MiG at around 8,000 feet resulted in the MiG firing a number of gun rounds at me that I had to evade, I decided to start a descending turn to the deck so that any time he wanted to shoot at me, he'd have his nose pointed right at the dirt.  This saved me probably four times, as I padlocked the MiG and saw him break off his attack several times and pull up to avoid the ground.  When I say the deck, I mean THE DECK - I was just above the little houses on the desert terrain.  If you're flying campaign mode, that might be dangerous, because of the possibility of anti-aircraft guns being in the area.

 

So, I still have to try a 2v2, 4v4, etc. but in the 1v1, my thoughts right now are that the Mirage IIICJ is comparable, but not quite to the same level as the MiG-21.  Also, I flew with the Flight Model set to HARD.  The AI always defaults to NORMAL, so I might lose energy a bit quicker, or handle less optimally, which could have tipped the balance at any point to the MiG-21.  Regardless, it seems that if you keep fast and use the vertical, you should be able to come out on top (I believe Crusader talked about energy fighting last page).  Both times I executed vertical loops, I wound up in the position of advantage, it just took forever to capitalize on it.

 

EDIT: 2v2

As is typical with 2v2 scenarios, an individual aircraft's capabilities don't matter as much if you can off-set shortcomings with good Tactics, Techniques and Procedures (TTP).  Although the AI is not particularly smart, simply having the second plane in the air made either one or both MiG-21's change focus to my wingman.  I was in good position to go for a Shafrir shot when both MiG-21's eventually started following my wingman.  Unfortunately, my wingman crashed.  Fortunately, the MiG that was immediately on his tail also crashed.  Now it was a 1v1 again, and I got tone with my Shafrir.  Perfect!  Oh wait, it came off stupid again.  Again, it turned into a dogfight.  This time, I used the vertical as much as possible through the fight.  It ended much more quickly, and like last time, the MiG ran out of gas, I shot him down with guns at very close range as he ran out of energy making harsh evasive maneuvers.

 

EDIT: 4v4

The 4v4 resulted in utter dominance displayed by the Mirage IIICJs over the MiG-21s.  This was probably helped by the fact that one of my wingmen shot down one of the MiGs at the merge with gunfire.  This made it a 4v3 at the first turn.  One of the MiGs was turning towards the tail of one of the Mirage IIIs, and not paying attention to me, so I lined him up and shot him down with guns about 90 seconds after the merge.  There was another who was either turning against me or my wingman, who then switched targets, and I was able to get tone on him, fire a Shafrir, and it tracked!  Unfortunately, the missile can't turn worth a damn, and both my missile and one of my wingmen's missed when the MiG broke right.  Somewhere here, the fourth MiG crashed.  While trying to shoot down this last MiG, one of my cannons jammed, and the other ran out of ammo.  Two of my flight also ran out of ammo trying to gun this sucker!  It finally took number 2 to catch up (he was probably why MiG 4 crashed), miss with both Shafrirs, then finally shoot the last MiG down with guns.  The fight took 8 minutes again due to our incompetence with guns, but the first 3 kills were achieved in under 4 minutes.

 

Something I noticed about this fight is that we were doing a lot of harsh pulls at very high mach numbers (~.9-1.1M), so instantaneous "g" levels could reach into the 9g region.  I was careful not to let my airspeed drop below the high 300's, and because of the variety of targets and early numeric superiority, was able to easily slide behind the MiG-21s.

[Stratos 3,167]

Excellent report Caesar! I'm improvin by flying a lot with the Mirage this days, now I need to improve against the Fresco using your 17F data file.

[Stratos 3,167]

Just flew a mission in the Mirage IIICJ Shahak against a MiG-21F-13.  I came out on top, but it took probably 8-9 minutes or so.  Some general thoughts:

 

The Shafrir-2 sucks.

On the occasions where I was able to get the MiG-21 dead-on the nose, the missile would not achieve tone.  It not only has to have the target's exhaust pointing at the missile, it has to be DEAD CENTER with no other possible heat-source in the way (e.g. ground, sun, etc.).  Even on the occasion I achieved tone, the missile came off stupid.  Reminds me a lot of the AIM-9B.  I actually fired my first missile in frustration when the MiG's tailpipe was in the middle of my windscreen, thinking "maybe the tone is just jacked up?"  Nope!  Came off stupid.

 

 

The Argie version is not that bad (If is there any difference at all).

 

[jeanba 1,915]

Just flew a mission in the Mirage IIICJ Shahak against a MiG-21F-13.  I came out on top, but it took probably 8-9 minutes or so.  Some general thoughts:

 

The Shafrir-2 sucks.

On the occasions where I was able to get the MiG-21 dead-on the nose, the missile would not achieve tone.  It not only has to have the target's exhaust pointing at the missile, it has to be DEAD CENTER with no other possible heat-source in the way (e.g. ground, sun, etc.).  Even on the occasion I achieved tone, the missile came off stupid.  Reminds me a lot of the AIM-9B.  I actually fired my first missile in frustration when the MiG's tailpipe was in the middle of my windscreen, thinking "maybe the tone is just jacked up?"  Nope!  Came off stupid.

 

The Mirage IIICJ has pretty decent alpha capabilities, but not as good as the MiG-21.

The MiG-21 was always able to get its nose pointed at me before I was able to get mine pointed at it at slow speeds.  Generally, the Mirage III was able to sustain about 23-24 degrees true alpha in the low 200's of knots.

 

The Mirage IIICJ's sustained turning performance against the MiG-21 is mediocre, but adequate.

I was able to achieve around 5.5-6g sustained turns at between .8 and .9M at 10,000 feet, around 5.8-6.2g at 5,000 feet between the same Mach numbers, and 6-7g on the deck.  As the fuel burned down, I did get an over 9g turn on during a harsh break turn, but both the "g" and the speed burned down pretty quick.  Problem is that the MiG-21 was always able to accomplish its turn more quickly than I was.  It would always get nose on before I could, and was typically in the 250-350KIAS region, while I was in the 500+ region (wider radius).

 

Where there seems to be the most mismanagement of energy by the AI MiG-21 is when it pushes into the vertical.  I found that I could fly vertical loops with the MiG, and it would run out of energy before I did, since it entered with less.  I would enter with at least 450KIAS, if not over 500, and burn down to the mid-300's by the top of the loop.  The MiG would enter with around 350, and could usually follow me through one loop.  By the second, it would run out of energy, or fall out and start turning.  This is how I got onto the MiG's tail twice.

 

The problem from here is that while pulling down from the top of the loop, I'd have less energy, and less ability to follow the MiG.  He'd be on the run, just outside gun parameters in a right or left turn.  I'd have to drop my nose to gain some energy, and rudder the nose up to try to get the pipper on.  What caused the fight to end was that I drove the MiG into BINGO fuel, and he was trying to escape.  He flew relatively straight and level trying to escape, which allowed me to get nose on, and as he began a right turn to try to shake me, I finally knocked him out of the sky with the guns.

 

Other thoughts

I used low altitude to help me on a number of occasions.  After my first one-circle turn with the MiG at around 8,000 feet resulted in the MiG firing a number of gun rounds at me that I had to evade, I decided to start a descending turn to the deck so that any time he wanted to shoot at me, he'd have his nose pointed right at the dirt.  This saved me probably four times, as I padlocked the MiG and saw him break off his attack several times and pull up to avoid the ground.  When I say the deck, I mean THE DECK - I was just above the little houses on the desert terrain.  If you're flying campaign mode, that might be dangerous, because of the possibility of anti-aircraft guns being in the area.

 

So, I still have to try a 2v2, 4v4, etc. but in the 1v1, my thoughts right now are that the Mirage IIICJ is comparable, but not quite to the same level as the MiG-21.  Also, I flew with the Flight Model set to HARD.  The AI always defaults to NORMAL, so I might lose energy a bit quicker, or handle less optimally, which could have tipped the balance at any point to the MiG-21.  Regardless, it seems that if you keep fast and use the vertical, you should be able to come out on top (I believe Crusader talked about energy fighting last page).  Both times I executed vertical loops, I wound up in the position of advantage, it just took forever to capitalize on it.

 

EDIT: 2v2

As is typical with 2v2 scenarios, an individual aircraft's capabilities don't matter as much if you can off-set shortcomings with good Tactics, Techniques and Procedures (TTP).  Although the AI is not particularly smart, simply having the second plane in the air made either one or both MiG-21's change focus to my wingman.  I was in good position to go for a Shafrir shot when both MiG-21's eventually started following my wingman.  Unfortunately, my wingman crashed.  Fortunately, the MiG that was immediately on his tail also crashed.  Now it was a 1v1 again, and I got tone with my Shafrir.  Perfect!  Oh wait, it came off stupid again.  Again, it turned into a dogfight.  This time, I used the vertical as much as possible through the fight.  It ended much more quickly, and like last time, the MiG ran out of gas, I shot him down with guns at very close range as he ran out of energy making harsh evasive maneuvers.

 

EDIT: 4v4

The 4v4 resulted in utter dominance displayed by the Mirage IIICJs over the MiG-21s.  This was probably helped by the fact that one of my wingmen shot down one of the MiGs at the merge with gunfire.  This made it a 4v3 at the first turn.  One of the MiGs was turning towards the tail of one of the Mirage IIIs, and not paying attention to me, so I lined him up and shot him down with guns about 90 seconds after the merge.  There was another who was either turning against me or my wingman, who then switched targets, and I was able to get tone on him, fire a Shafrir, and it tracked!  Unfortunately, the missile can't turn worth a damn, and both my missile and one of my wingmen's missed when the MiG broke right.  Somewhere here, the fourth MiG crashed.  While trying to shoot down this last MiG, one of my cannons jammed, and the other ran out of ammo.  Two of my flight also ran out of ammo trying to gun this sucker!  It finally took number 2 to catch up (he was probably why MiG 4 crashed), miss with both Shafrirs, then finally shoot the last MiG down with guns.  The fight took 8 minutes again due to our incompetence with guns, but the first 3 kills were achieved in under 4 minutes.

 

Something I noticed about this fight is that we were doing a lot of harsh pulls at very high mach numbers (~.9-1.1M), so instantaneous "g" levels could reach into the 9g region.  I was careful not to let my airspeed drop below the high 300's, and because of the variety of targets and early numeric superiority, was able to easily slide behind the MiG-21s.

Well, that does not reflect my feeling :

The shafrir 2 is a limited missile of its generation, but it is not that bad, and not as bad as the AIM-9B or AA-2.

I made a full 1973 campaigns and my kill rate with around 50% with this missile.

The Shafrir 1 is mainly here for pure esthetical purpose.

The Israeli tactic, which I used to great effect with Mirage IIIC and Nesher consists in fly at high speed, than turn hard, leeting your speed drop very low but gain a high instantaneous turn, while avoiding overshooting and gain an advantageous position, and fire.

This technics kills a Mig21 (F, PFM, or MF) in 3-5 minutes and is also efficient against all potential ennemies (Hunter, Mig17 and 19) and even Mig-23s (I made a Nato 1980 campiagn with a Mirage IIIC)

Of course, against a F16 or the like, you're dead

I think that you try to fight in terms of constant energy management, which is not the right way to do in Mirage.

The point is to think of your energy as a "bullet" : you keep it until you have an opprtunity, you "fire it" (ie hard maneuvers without energy considerations to get into firing position), then you "reload" by extending.

The point is that you must feel the moment when you must switch between tight turning to get a firing solution (offensive) and tight turning to increase delexion and be safe (defensive), remember that your ennemies weapons are also very limited so as long as you have a reasonnable deflection angle, you can quickly go beyond your ennemies weapons enveloppe.