Sopwith Pups have no propellors with the AI Weight Mod

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

33Lima,

 

I started a campain today flying a sopwith pup with 54 squadron in march 1917 - the first patrol I did I discovered when I had taken off that the rest of the flight were stationary on the ground, after further investigation I discovered that none of them had propellors (perhaps explaining the inability to take off), after ending the flight, and advancing time and trying a 3 further flights with the same result (also advancing time between each one). I exited OFF, and started to disable the installed mods, trying OFF each time starting with Bletchley's sector mod. It was only when I diabled your AI weight mod that the rest of the flight were able to take off. I then reenabled you mod with the same result

 

Thinking it was an anomaly with 54 squadron I then started a campaign with 66 squadron with the same results.

 

I was wondering if this could be linked to the Halberstadt issue.

 

For the record I was running (in this order)

 

Active Sector January-April 1917

Ai Empty weight mod

HPW Damage mod 1.25

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[33LIMA 972]

Thanks for the feedback. No propellors - now that is interesting! I have a Pup pilot set up, 46 Sqdn I believe. I will activate that pilot and see what happens, and report back.

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

Thanks for the feedback. No propellors - now that is interesting! I have a Pup pilot set up, 46 Sqdn I believe. I will activate that pilot and see what happens, and report back.

 

33LIMA,

 

Thank you I would be very interested as I thought it may be a problem with my install of OFF (or the way I had installed the mods).

 

I await your reply with interest.

[Hauksbee 103]

I see the Kaiser's hand in this!

[33LIMA 972]

Just made a campaign takeoff leading a flight of 4 other 46 Sqdn Pups and we all got off ok.

 

Delayed starting my engine and observed the others. I could see no props either but this appeared to be because they were turning - I could hear their engines running and as usual if I waited long enough a couple took off. I then started up myself and took off, the others following me in the usual way.

 

The only thing was that takeoff runs were on the long side and the climb-outs rather flat - they cleared a few trees at the boundary but not by much and had there been a hill as well as trees, they may not have made it. Since the Halberstadt problem came up the suspicion was that other very-low powered planes might have trouble and the Pup is light but very low-powered so it may well need a lower 'handicap', like the Halb.

 

However they didn't fail to get underway.

 

The only reason I can think of for any different results, is the different bases involved. Except...

 

Were you flying as leader, and if you have HITR, have you chosen 'unique player skin' or the ability to choose your ammo & fuel load? I ask, because I think these things can dictate whether the AI planes in your own flight (as opposed to other AI planes) fly the same plane as the player (no extra weight) or other AI (extra weight applied). If that makes any sense!

 

The AI weight mod should not stop planes at least starting their takeoff roll. I recall that during testing I had to increase weights to silly levels, to prevent planes from getting off the ground, but they never just sat there, they attempted a takeoff roll. When you say they were 'stationary on the ground' had they moved (much or at all) from their start positions, and then stopped, like, mid-way down the airfield? I have this vague recollection of once seeing some planes refusing even to budge, way before the AI weight mod, and never seeing them again on the mission, which at the time, I attributed, maybe quite wrongly, to maybe not having orbited the airfield before heading off.

[33LIMA 972]

I see the Kaiser's hand in this!

 

Ja, we haf deployed the devilishly cunning anti-magneto ray, und Perfidious Albion will soon learn the price of their terrible folly! Gott strafe England!

Edited January 11, 2012 by 33LIMA

[33LIMA 972]

OK I THINK I've found out what the problem is and what will be needed, to sort it.

 

The problem comes in three parts:

 

First, 54 Squadron's airfield at Chipilly is a death-trap. It has a sudden incline at the far end, rising sharply over 100 feet from airfield level, with some trees around too.

 

Second, the AI in OFF are pretty marginal at taking off in lower-powered planes, to the point they can't cope with a full load of fuel and ammo (let alone, the AI Empty Weight Mod's full load minus 80 lbs) if there's an obstruction near the airfield boundary...like Chipilly's 100 ft-plus ridge.

 

Third, the AI can behave like Lemmings. With no AI empty weight mod, I once saw a flight of Fokker E3's in quite leisurely fashion follow their leader who crashed into a hill, which they proceeded to do, despite having plenty of time, space and power to pull up or turn aside.

 

What happened when I tested was my flight took off fine (I have 'always lead' selected, plus I have load control not unique skin selected - I believe theis means my own flight fly without the mod's extra weight).

 

But the other flight...well, the first few took off ok. But one of them crashed. Strangely, he made it past the tip of the incline, but crashed and burned about 50 feet past the crest, where the ground seemed level. The interesting thing was, the last two Pups in that same flight, stayed stationery at their start positions. They did so, I believe, because the plane ahead of them in their flight 'disappeared' when he crashed, leaving them like lost kids. All dressed up, nowhere to go. It's possible that if one of the surviving members of their flight, who had taken off ok earlier, had flown past close enough, they might have reacted and took off to follow, but I didn't wait too long to see if that happened.

 

The prob that REALLY needs fixed here is the AI, not the AI empty weight mod, tho I say so myself. They need to be able to takeoff and generally fly, at up to and including normal full load, or otherwise much as the player's plane can; and they need not to follow their leader like Lemmings (and/or the next guy ahead whichever it is they do) regardless of whether the leader/next plane ahead is crashed, heading to destruction etc. Another symptom of this 'Lemming behaviour' is although not crashing themselves, I have noticed they follow you down to the deck (if not engaged with enemies) when you're gliding down with a dead engine and won't obey the CFS3 Split command as far as I can see, which ought to signify their leader has absolved them of their duty to stay in formation.

 

But we can't do that; thank goodness it looks like P4/OFF2 will.

 

So that leaves doing what was done with the AI Halberstadts ie reducing their extra weight in the AI empty weight mod, even tho that also lets them keep more of their 'lower weight' advantage, in air combat.

 

HPW is I think still working on a new combined mod with the extra weight cut back to ramp weight, which may turn out to be the best compromise in the circumstances. If that doesn't appear soon I'll make a Pup Mod update to the AI empty Weight mod, and upload that.

 

In the meantime, I may be wrong, but I don't think the AI empty Weight mod will affect YOUR flight, if you 'always lead' and if you have 'choose fuel and ammo load' selected, as I do. Only planes in AI-led flights.

 

Anyway thanks again for the feedback!

Edited January 11, 2012 by 33LIMA

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

RugbyFan,

 

Do you use my FM mod for the Pup in addition to the AI Weight mod or not?

 

If not, try my FM mod and see if the problem remains.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

HPW is I think still working on a new combined mod with the extra weight cut back to ramp weight, which may turn out to be the best compromise in the circumstances. If that doesn't appear soon I'll make a Pup Mod update to the AI empty Weight mod, and upload that.

Thanks for the reminder, Lima. I got distracted by the fix for the Pfalz and a brief diversion into the FM for the Fokker Dr1. Will try to have something by the weekend.

[33LIMA 972]

Thanks for the reminder, Lima. I got distracted by the fix for the Pfalz and a brief diversion into the FM for the Fokker Dr1. Will try to have something by the weekend.

 

 

No, no, your work on the Pfalz FM isn't a distraction! It's work of the utmost importance to the German air war effort! The prayers of OFF Pfalz pilots everywhere, are with you!!!

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

33LIMA,

 

Thank you for the testing, in reply to both yours and HPW's questions:

 

1) I always lead my flight.

 

2) I have ammo and fuel selected, but I never alter it from 100% fuel.

 

3) I do not have HPW's FM Mods installed.

 

4) I never wait for the AI to start their rollout before taking off, I always rotate fully all the joystick movements, start engine run up to full power and takeoff.

 

5) I did wait before starting my engine run and taking off for about 30 seconds and the AI planes never moved and when I flew back to the airfield after I had got 4 miles out I noticed that they did not seem to have moved.

 

6) When I had taken off and flown outside of the range of the labels showing the aircraft information (ie. blue for allied), the white bogey labels never showed up, but the white dot showed on the TAC. When I flew back to the airfield the labels never showed in either colour (white or blue).

 

The only thing I can think of that might have made a difference (and it sounds stupit), is that I had altered my framerate in cfs.xml from 60 to 40 before I started the game.

 

I will do further testing tonight and let you know the results.

[+Polovski 414]

Just for some perspective the AI in most situations are pretty good in HITR and don't forget there are two AI settings. Aggressive may give better results.

All AI can take off in BH&H or HITR normally fine and are not normally "lemmings". But of course in odd mountainous areas in certain situations odd things can happen (it's a computer piloting in a million situations/craft etc).

 

Given AI is rather tricky to program if you have issues try setting the AI to aggressive mode - the less aggressive has different behaviours.

 

(OFF2 has new AI, and it really is an EPIC amount of work for RexH to make new AI).

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

Just for some perspective the AI in most situations are pretty good in HITR and don't forget there are two AI settings. Aggressive may give better results.

All AI can take off in BH&H or HITR normally fine and are not normally "lemmings". But of course in odd mountainous areas in certain situations odd things can happen (it's a computer piloting in a million situations/craft etc).

 

Given AI is rather tricky to program if you have issues try setting the AI to aggressive mode - the less aggressive has different behaviours.

 

(OFF2 has new AI, and it really is an EPIC amount of work for RexH to make new AI).

 

Pol,

 

Ah, that might also explain the problem as I have the AI set to less aggressive (I hate the low level "stall and climb tactic". I will amend the aggressiveness of the AI and give it another go.

 

Really looking forward to P4, and if it is as half as big a leap as P3 was over P2 it will be even better.

 

One question though, as we have had the first preview video does that mean that P4 will be in our hands before christmas (trying to get a timeline based on the preview videos from P3), lol

 

Seriously though, devs, keep up the good work both prerelease and with any patches that you feel the game will need afterwards.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

In addition to the AI aggression setting, what is your squadron's rating? Perhaps this not taking off is related to having a poor or average squadron rating, too.

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

In addition to the AI aggression setting, what is your squadron's rating? Perhaps this not taking off is related to having a poor or average squadron rating, too.

 

HPW,

 

I normally fly in a squadron that has poor or average rating. I will try to find a pup squadron that has an elite rating and let you know the results later.

[33LIMA 972]

I flew a second 54 Squadron campaign mission last night with somewhat different results.

 

As per last time, the flight I was leading all got off fine.

 

Of the first couple from the AI-led flight, one got off ok, but the second one crashed and burned, again only just past the crest.

 

That left two sitting at the start position. They sat there for a short time, then one took off and made it past the crest.

 

The last one also took off, but it was rather weird. As I orbited above him on the start line I could see he was sitting askew, with his nose about 30 degrees to the right of the runway's centre line. When he started his run, he continued on this skewed path, ran off the airfield proper, past the rear of some structures (tents I think) and then got airborne, again clearing the crest, this time in the 'corner' it formed at the SE ?) corner of the flying field.

 

I have seen this strange diagonal takeoff behaviour once before, with an AI FE2b which crashed into the sheds.

 

Based on this - out of about 20 planes in two missions, two crashes, and two refusals (which - as on the 2nd mission - might have cleared, had I waited or circled above myself) I would be disinclined to reduce the Pup's extra weight, and to put the erratic behaviour down to the sort of takeoff incidents you got in real life due to inexperienced pilots (even with benign planes like Pups) in operational conditions. Plus Chipilly is rather a death trap, with little margin for error. So I'd actually award extra points to OFF for greater realism on this one. A WW1 sim where all pilots flew competently or better all the time would not be very realistic.

 

Another factor is, that I have not seen this affect the flight that I am leading; only the AI-led flight, and only to this limited extent. Maybe it's just me, but I tend to ignore other flights (where there is one; in a good many cases, there isn't) and go my own way in my own time. So I'm generally not that bothered, if the other Flight screws up somewhat, as long as mine does ok

 

At the moment I'm flying Less Agressive AI and will stick with that. Early days but with that setting, in the campaigns I'm currently flying (Brisfit, FE2b, Pup and Camel) I seem to get little of the 'dive for the deck then do roller-coasters' behaviour.

Edited January 12, 2012 by 33LIMA

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

33LIMA,

 

I think I have solved the problem (at least on my first flight). I uninstalled and then reinstalled the game and that seems to have fixed the problem (at least for 46 in April 1917).

 

I will have a further look over the weekend and report back to you.

 

I will try other early war (1915-1916) aircraft as well.

 

Thank you for your prompt and patient assistance in trouble shooting this problem.

[33LIMA 972]

Wow - a re-install- that was drastic! At least it worked.

 

Yes please, let me know if you get further problems!

 

I'm just back online after spending ages getting rid of a really nasty trojan, the 'UKash Metropolitan police scam' (a form or ransomware) and I'm very glad I didn't have to do a re-install for that, as it would have been a re-install of everything!!! My nerves were already in shreds after a scary 10 Naval Tripehound campaign in First Eagles, V-strutters appearing from everywhere, survived some really hairy missions only to end up getting my tail shot off fourth time out, so a nice quiet patrol or two in OFF's Pups with no more than the odd takeoff incident and some 'Less Aggressive' Albatros DIIs to worry about, will seem like a nice break!