Sucked into the prop wash!

[+SupGen 78]

For the longest time I've resisted the siren call of the PropHeads forum, but reading pcpilot's and usafphantom2's threads in the Mission and Campaign Discussion has been working it's way under my skin...the Solomons...it started me thinking...Coral Sea...Eastern Solomons... Santa Cruz...some of the largest and fiercest (and yet inconclusive) carrier battles of the entire Pacific War were fought here. Sooo needless to say, I've downloaded the SolomonsV3 terrain and a bunch of other stuff (some of it from the DAT site; sorry but Shokaku and Zuikaku; Whoo Hoo). I grabbed the WWll Formations mod from the d'load section here and I've seen Wrench's entries for the WWll Nations ini. in the tweaks thread, but I can't seem to find the WWll Nations ini. itself. Is it a separate entity or are we just talking about an edited standard Nations ini.? If it's separate I'd appreciate a pointer in the right direction; if it's an edit a few pointers there, as well. That being said, does anyone here remember the (for all practical purposes, unplayably huge Avalon Hill game called Flattop? I've still got it on the shelf but in oh, I guess twenty-five or thirty years I've never been able to convince anyone else to invest the time to play it. The best thing about playing against AI? They're too dumb to say no! Anyway help with the Nations ini. thing would be much appreciated, thanks in advance.

Edited February 13, 2013 by SupGen

[+Baltika 84]

Our forces. . . Must grow!!! (CyberLeader, Doctor Who, circa 1984)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_DyWxszBCo

 

 

 

Here is the file you seek. . .

 

http://combatace.com...ormations-inis/

 

Courtesy of The Wrench, most mighty SF2 WW2 modder :)

 

We are not worthy :)

Edited February 13, 2013 by Baltika

[amariani 4,649]

Welcome to the Dark side!

[+SupGen 78]

Thanks Gents! Of course, now I've got another question; water map for the Solomons?

[Wrench 9,422]

not built.

the map has insufficent 'sea room' for placement of NAstyle CV zones in their proper position* (ie: just the USN)

 

 

 

* or improper postions either

Edited February 13, 2013 by Wrench

[+SupGen 78]

Oh no! Does this mean no CV vs CV? (TF vs TF).

[Wrench 9,422]

that's exactly what it means!!

 

cause there weren't none, in RL

Edited February 13, 2013 by Wrench

[+SupGen 78]

Man, I (really) hate to argue with the master, but...are we talking about the same terrain? Judging by the planning map it's 90% water! All three of the battles I mentioned in my first post took place within the confines of this map, costing us Lexington, Hornet, Wasp and damage to Yorktown, Saratoga and Enterprise at various times and costing the Japanese Shoho, Ryujo, and serious damage to both Shokaku and Zuikaku (again, at various times). The area covered by this map was the crucible where the doctrines of Naval Aviation were forged; the U.S. Navy fought an ascendent Imperial Japanese Navy to a standstill before any of our advantages in production etc. began to have an effect, i.e., with what we had brung to the fight. It was in these waters, as much as at Midway, that the myth of Japanese invincibility was broken. This was really where the Pacific War was decided.

[Wrench 9,422]

trust me on this ... the only 'viable' locations are east of Tulagi or east of New Georgia -- this is due to the existence of The Wall (80 km border around the map edge), and the fact the IJN commited NO CVs to Solomons defense -- all IJN/IJAAF aircraft were based on New Gerogia, New Britian and New Ireland

 

you're hisotry is a littel off ...

 

Lexington - sunk at Coral Sea (not actually on this map)

Yorktown -sunk at Midway (another map)

Wasp - ambushed by sub in the general vicinty of solomons (maybe on this map)

Hornet - sunk during battle of santa cruz -(on this map, but it just won't fit)

 

the NA CV zone coding, as compared to IcelandNA, requires an area covering apprx 1/2 the map, for either side. (look at the IcelandNA water bmp -- that's how the coding is uspposed to work ) using the 'zones' as we (ok, I) have, actually allows the shihps to wander all over not just within their specife areas

Play the Persian Gulf map, and youll see what I mean

you'll problay find several fleet formations in the Omani desert

Edited February 14, 2013 by Wrench

[+SupGen 78]

Wrench, my history is not a little off; if you look at my post again you'll see I never said Yorktown was sunk here, I said she was damaged here, (and she was, Lexington was sunk, upon Yorktown's return to Pearl she recieved probably a months' worth of repairs in about seventy two hours), she was able to take part in (and be sunk at) Midway, but not before contributing to the defeat of the IJN there. The raid that severely damaged and almost sunk Shokaku certainly was on this map. Take a look at the map below. However, the location of individual ship sinkings is of no importance; the fact that the battles in question may play out in a more limited arena is also of little importance, the fact is that those battles took place in the near vicinity of Guadalcanal. No, the IJN did not commit CV Task Forces to the defence of the island anymore than we committed CV Task Forces to the effort to take it, however this was where the enemies Task Forces were to be found attempting to wrest Control of the Seas from each other and both sides were more than willing to go at it hammer and tongs in the effort to do so.

Wrench, all I'm saying is that this map offers a rare, maybe imperfect, opportunity to "game" some of the most important, not to mention most interesting, battles of the entire Pacific War. If I could wake a water map myself, I would; I am admitedly the lamest individual around when it comes to the TE and any and all visual manipulation programs (Gimp, Paint, 3DS MAX, I suck at all of them), please just give me a water map for this (wasn't it Archimedes who said "Give me a water map and a place to stand, and I will move the Earth; OK, maybe not), please a water map, my kingdom for a water map! I've attached a map of the Coral Sea battle and the Cuba water map from Kodiak's water map pack, if he could fit one here we can fit one anywhere. Again, if it doesn't work perfectly that's OK, in this case the opportunity to try outweighs anything else.

[Wrench 9,422]

kodiak's map is exceedingly imperfect for Cuba OTC+. the one I made is historically correct.

------------

my apologies on the Yorktown -- I'd forotton her damage and quickie repairs before Midway.

 

the screenie below shoudl reiterate the point. I made it last night, expecting the questions to be raised!

 

the white box outlines the USABLE area within The Wall. But, it should be noted that anything with 50 km OF The Wall, behaves "oddly"

 

Given that all but one of our surface warships (the Fletcher) has more than -at most- 3 working guns, limits their usablity/playabity for surface actions, adding the usn an ijn SAG 'zones' in the Slot would be an exercise in futility -- i can bet real money the damn boats would be sailing over hill and jungle in no time! (and I've seen it! it's already been tested by me)

 

the main problem with how the game engine handles the naval zones, is they're permanent ... and it induces playability issues with naval aircraft being used from land bases ... you'll find your Marines flying from carriers instead of Henderson

 

creating a water bmp, for just shippihg lanes, (which are quite well defined to keep them OFF te land!!) is just the matter of an hour or so's work.

[+SupGen 78]

Wrench, thank you for the reply. A water map based on that "useable area" would work for me...I'm not looking to game surface action in the slot; I'm looking to replicate (to the extent that it's possible) Carrier to Carrier alpha strike battles as actually occurred in the area in 1942. Say one zone in the northern sector (700-800X600-700) and one in the southern sector (200-300X500-600). I just want both Navies Carrier Task Forces on the same map, at the same time. If I can make something good happen from that I won't keep it to myself, if not, so be it. All I'm asking is for a water map that will let me try this out. I don't want to see the other guy close up, I want to send out Scout/Recon flights; find 'em, fix 'em, and kill 'em with air strikes from my carriers. C'mon, brutha, do me a solid here, like I said, if I can't make it work, it's all on me.

[Wrench 9,422]

you DON'T want to see the whites of their searchlights??? (Savo reference for those not remembering the incidents)

 

with or without cv zones? remember with those 'in position', it will foul up any campaigns (old ones don't work anymore anyway), but newer builds will need to have a different WB without the zones

 

next week ok?

[+SupGen 78]

With zones, Boss (drool)! If the old campaigns don't work any way, "shrug". I may have to study up on campaign building, at the moment I'm thinking in terms of short campaigns covering each encounter seperately, however if it's possible to string it all together in a longer campaign, that would be cool, too. As far as when; whenever suits you, if you're doing it, I would even wait two weeks!

On another note, Wrench, you were an old Avalon Hill grognard no? Do you remember FLATTOP?

Last edit: Wrench, just make sure the zones are within striking distance of each other and I will be a happy camper! Thanks!!!

Edited February 15, 2013 by SupGen

[usafphantom2 19]

Wow I would love that too! not that we have a Lex,Wasp and some of the Japanese carriers needed! Wrench you da man! We gotta get Hinchbrooke or WBSamurai to make us some missing ships-Lexington,Wasp,most of the bigger Japanese carriers,HMS Arkroyal,Invinceable...Oh you know all the WW2 ones and Bismarck,Tirpitiz,ADMScheer,Prince Eugen Graf Spree.

Edited February 26, 2013 by usafphantom2