Interesting new info on Colonel Tomb.....

[+MK2 12]

Interesting but not yet confirmed. I have been in e-mail contact with Toperczer (written VPAF books) and Chris Hobson (Vietnam air losses). I'll forward this to them as well and see what they think. it's all unconfimred but since I have been heavily researching this stuff lately. I'll dig around and see how this all add ups (I have also e-mailed the original author, Sewell)).

 

Here is the post, the following was not written by me:

 

I wrote the author (Sewell) to see if I could include this in my "ShowTime 100" posting. He gave me permission and updated the original narrative that I had found to include the latest information on the subject. What follows is the narrative he sent me.

 

The author tells me the events outlined in this version are correct and even the VPAF corroborates all but the loss of Ngu (They were a bit embarrassed and grounded the wingman for about six weeks to get his head straight. They also didn't like him going to pieces in a fight nor blabbing the other pilot's name over the radio.)

 

Narrative

 

 

 

Even with the publication of a number of books on the VPAF by Hungarian Dr. Istvan Toperczer, it is still problematic determining which Vietnamese pilots flew which aircraft, and what they really did accomplish in combat.

 

One case in point is the notorious "Colonel Tomb", reputedly shot down by Cunningham and Driscoll on 10 May 1972. This individual really did exist and was one of the senior pilots in the VPAF and a crack pilot, but he is a combination of two men, not one single pilot. The actual pilot's name was Dinh Ton, but his name was mangled by the U.S. press as "Tomb". Jack Anderson of the Washington Post wrote about him in 1971. Anderson, using material obtained from an unnamed intelligence source, saw the name in Vietnamese telegraphic spelling. He pointed out that the Vietnamese spelled the name T - Long O sound - N - rising inflection tone; but once the press and writers got hold of it, nobody noticed or cared. "Colonel Tomb" sounds far more dramatic.

 

However, his exploits are mostly those of one of the senior pilots in the VPAF, Dang Ngoc Ngu. Both first flew MiG-17s, but transitioned into MiG-21s by late 1965. Ngu was the "old man" of the VPAF and flew missions up until his death on 8 July 1972. Ironically, Ngu was shot down by a missile fired from a US Navy cruiser, not an air-to-air missile.

 

Ton was paired with another pilot named Bieu, of whom we still do not have a good record. Bieu was shot down at least once, flew a MiG-21 in an attempt to attack an SR-71 in which he again had to bail out, and planted a third MiG-21 outside of Bai Thuong when he had an altimeter failure over the airfield, no GCA and 10/10 cloud cover. Ton was noted as THE Maverick of the VPAF and, as such, had a number of wild tales told about him. Before continuing, it is only fair to recount some of the tales about Ton so that the reader can understand why his legend grew among U.S. pilots in Southeast Asia.

 

Unlike many of the others, Ton was selected for "Lone Wolf" tactics, such as single attacks under crazy circumstances. He also enjoying playing with U.S. pilots, usually Air Force F-4 jocks, just for the fun of it. There are a number of instances where F-4 flights would suddenly gain a PFM wingman; it was usually "Ton" flying formation with them, and more often than not with bare missile rails. Once spotted, he would usually give a cheery wave, go inverted, and split-S away on full burner.

 

The story recounted by Captain Don Logan in Lou Drendel's book Phantom II about seeing such an incident occur right after being hit by an Atoll on 5 July 1972 has all the hallmarks of one of Ton's capers. However, it is now known that the pilot who shot him down was probably Ngu.

 

The boldest of Ton's adventures occurred in the fall of 1971 when the VPAF carried out "Operation B-52", an attack on an ARCLIGHT raid of three B-52 bombers with the mission of destroying one. Ton had no qualms about volunteering and apparently bet he could get one. When an ARCLIGHT mission was located headed into the Laotian panhandle, he took off and headed for the area given him by the ground coordinator. The B-52s were escorted by 16 F-4s as MiG activity had been warned; four flew at each point of the compass around the big bombers as they lumbered on at 45,000 feet, right at sunset. Just as the bombers prepared to break up for their bomb run, they were spotted by Ton who rolled in to attack at once.

 

He switched on both his radar and, in typical fashion, his anti-collision lights as well; he went in through four flustered Phantoms on full afterburner. Ton locked on to the center aircraft, fired both of his missiles when his SPIN SCAN radar sight indicated full lock-on (all the radar indicated was that he was within range and pointed dead at the target; Atolls are heat-seekers, not beam-riders) and did an Immelman back through the surprised Phantoms who marveled at the lights as he went by at a closing speed of some 2000 MPH. "Ton" saw an explosion as he left the area and the lights of the B-52 as it fell out of control and figured that he got a "big one". Champagne supposedly flowed at Phuc Yen that night.

 

What had happened was that one of the two missiles locked on to the setting sun and "went west"; the other tracked true right up to the last second. The tail gunner on the B-52, seeing the missile whiz by, ejected (and apparently became an MIA); but the missile dropped under the B-52 at the last second and detonated approximately 100 feet under the cockpit. The worst real casualty of the detonation (other than the unfortunate gunner) was the co-pilot who caught a piece of shrapnel in one of his big toes. But the explosion under the cockpit when the aircraft was switched to the radar bombsight caused it to go into a spin and it fell almost 40,000 feet before the pilots could jettison their ordnance and get the now damaged bomber back under control and headed for Thailand and safety. The bomber made it to Nakhom Phanom (a base NOT designed for B-52s) and made a safe landing. Ton got the bad news the next day that he had missed.

 

Neither Ton nor Ngu was killed on 10 May 1972. Ton was not noted in action, but Ngu was posted to the new 927th FAR at Kep. He and his wingman took off when the first strikes rolled in, and had the misfortune to be spotted by Curt Dose and Jim McDevitt. They shot down Ngu's wingman, and while he later claimed them as a kill (often mis-associated as shooting down Cunningham and Driscoll) nothing of the sort took place.

 

The three kills claimed by Cunningham and Driscoll were all MiG-17 drivers, but to this day all of the VPAF's senior aces have been accounted for, so it was not one of the aces who fought with them. But who was it?

 

Other factors now go into the equation. Based on the Soviet style system used by the VPAF, the regimental commander also flies with his men and, in many cases, is also the leading scorer. For example, during the Korean war Evgeniy Pepelyaev, who at the time was a Lieutenant Colonel and regimental commander, was also the highest scoring Soviet pilot and top scorer in his regiment. The man that Cunningham and Driscoll tangled with was probably a unit commander, either company or more likely regimental level, who was warned to break off the combat and land. But as a senior commander (i.e. a colonel) he could disregard the order with a relative degree of impunity (R.H.I.P. -- easy; just outrank the ground controller).

 

Some Western aviation writers still believe that "North Vietnamese pilots often flew different aircraft types". This is a nice idea, and would make some things fit, but it is not the Soviet way, and was not the VPAF way. Once trained on a specific aircraft type, the Soviet goal is to make the pilot get the most out of that particular aircraft rather than "rate" on a number of different types. As an example, according to recent Russian articles on the VPAF, in December 1972 they had 194 pilots on hand but only 13 qualified in making night combat flights. The average VPAF pilot had only 450 hours in the air -- while compared to WW I standards a great deal, but that works out to only slightly over the basic and advanced training requirements for most modern pilots to begin familiarity with the aircraft. This statement alone does not support the claim of "swapping" types at random.

 

Once VPAF pilots transitioned into the MiG-21, and even moreso the MiG-21MF, they did not change aircraft types. This was a honor, as they were the hottest aircraft around and had the added advantage of the GSh-23 gun pack, thus giving a modicum of a fair fight once missiles were expended.

 

The MiG-17 pilot faced by Cunningham and Driscoll was probably a senior in the 923rd FAR - a flight leader, a squadron commander, or possibly the regimental commander. The main question today is who was it?

 

The VPAF claims a pilot named Nguyen Van Tho (pronounced T-UH) was the one who had the big fight with Cunningham but they also claimed he survived the fight which does not seem credible. Only examination of the records of that day will provide the information, as the VPAF has muddied the waters in its official history which Dr. Toperczer has faithfully translated. They also claimed that Dang Ngoc Ngu survived the war, even though it was obvious to US Intelligence on 8 July 1972 when he was shot down and his wingman nearly suffered a nervous breakdown in flight as he saw him disintegrate in midair.

 

Which of these pilots fought with Randy Cunningham and Willie Driscoll and paid the ultimate price for a mistake? We still do not know who it was, we only know who it was not.

 

Sewell

AMPS

 

 

original story:

 

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/cunnigh...hvictimcs_1.htm

[+howling1 0]

I've always thought that whoever flew MiG# 3020 was no amateur, & had a helluva lot more experience than your average VPAF Fresco driver...

[ptitmataf 0]

.. what if ... that pilot was russian?

[+howling1 0]

.. what if ... that pilot was russian?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The North Viets claim no Russians flew with them. Yet we know of at least one Soviet pilot who was credited with 6 kills...

[+MK2 12]

Howling great timing on the post read this:

 

Here is a response from the author of the article (including some stunning news on the Soviet 6 kill ace).

 

Alex,

 

The six-kill Soviet "ace" that I checked on turned out to be a SA-2 battalion commander! (He got six all right, but not in air-to-air combat; only one Soviet pilot was confirmed to be involved in air combat, and he was flying a MiG-21UTI so had no armament and a scared VPAF student in the front seat!)

 

I have a new version of this article done but it is with Dr. John Sherwood of the Naval History office in DC and he is going to post it sometime (I hope!) I took 4 years to get the SIGINT for 10 May 1972 which essentially confirms the US side of things, not sure how it will turn out as Frank Rozendaal thinks the VPAF had some more accurate statements. (I wish I had the raw traffic from that day, but that would have put me in jail 33 years ago!)

 

Cookie

[Scout_51 0]

He also enjoying playing with U.S. pilots, usually Air Force F-4 jocks, just for the fun of it. There are a number of instances where F-4 flights would suddenly gain a PFM wingman; it was usually "Ton" flying formation with them, and more often than not with bare missile rails. Once spotted, he would usually give a cheery wave, go inverted, and split-S away on full burner.

 

 

Im having a real difficult time going into believe mode on this...oh I admit it might have occured,but I dont think it happened many times..it probablly did not happen to a 4 ship flight,or the e model rhinos...it probablly did not happen to any bird that had a gun(pod) hung or installed...as for the wave and going inverted and outta there?(maybe the viets have seen 'top gun' once too often) somehow I cant see a mig 17 or 21 outrunning a f-4 in a dive..nor do I see (even) air force pilots just letting this happen and allow the insulter to go merrily along his way.......if nothing else mr gravity is in the favor of the much much heavier american yankee imperialist dogs... and their f-4 and f-105s...you might be right,of course,but I just had to put in my 50cents worth(yeah inflation in cliches too).....

[+MK2 12]

Thanks for the post scout, I did mention is it unconfirmed and also mentioned that I did not write it. So I guess you are saying that the author "might be right but..." ;)

 

I agree with what you are saying, still interesting info. However I have been in touch with the author and he will be updating this soon. We'll see, i also found another "unconfirmed story" about a VPAF pilot form a Vietnamese website, maybe I'll post it later...

[Scout_51 0]

"might be right but..."

 

 

LOL LOL LOL......I will say tho,If it did happen I think our guys definetly needed the red flag excersises and the top gun school.....then again a lot of the sqn leaders and wing commanders were ww2 and korean aces,that kind of stuff would happen just Once....

[+MK2 12]

Here is a post by Tom Cooper who has written several OSprey series books on Iranian F-4 and F-14 units.

 

I had just found out about Le Than Dao this evening and was doing research.

 

 

Tom Cooper Aug 5 2001, 7:37 am show options

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military

From: muf...@yline.com (Tom Cooper) - Find messages by this author

Date: 5 Aug 2001 07:37:19 -0700

Local: Sun, Aug 5 2001 7:37 am

Subject: Re: Colonel Tomb

Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse

 

 

IMHO,

the matter is slightly more complicated if all aspects that matter are

taken into the context.

 

As first, by early 1970s, different US services listened very

intensively to NVAF comms, simultaneously also working with the help

of such devices like "Combat Tree" etc. While this is still not widely

known in the public - nor is the importance of such operations really

recognized as such - it sounds very plausible

 

Lets go through some stuff in chronological order.

 

08:45

The first US kill on 10 May 1972 was scored by Lt. C. Dosé/Lt.Cdr. J.

McDevitt which surprised two MiG-21MFs of the 921st FR, flown by Dang

Ngoc Ngu and Nguyen Van Ngai at take off from Kep. Missile fired at

Ngu hit the ground under his MiG, while Ngai was shot down by the

second Sidewinder several seconds later. At the time, two other

MiG-21MFs were readied for start at Kep, one of them piloted by Le

THANH Dao (the other by Vu Duc Hop). Le Thanh Dao was indeed one of

NVAF's leading aces at the time, and finished the war with six claims

to his credit. But, in this case, warned by Ngu, he aborted the

mission.

 

09:40AM

Then came the clash between "Oysters" and what - apparently (according

to Toperczer's book) - must have been either four or six J-6s

(MiG-19s) and two or four MiG-21s, which ended with three Vietnamese

and one Phantom being shot down (by Pham Hung Son). One of the

Vietnamese MiGs was shot down by Capt. S. Ritchie/RIO Capt. C.

DeBellevue, for their second kill. Ritchie was to reach the status of

an "ace" only during the summer of 1972 (followed by DeBellevue, which

- as RIO for Ritchie and John Madden - became the US "leading

MiG-killer" of that war, with six kills), not on 10 May, and they flew

for the USAF.

 

01:00PM

For the rest of the day, the NVAF increased the pace, starting with

another foursome of J-6s which - at 10:14AM - intercepted the Harlow

flight (USAF), out of which Nguyen Manh Tung downed the F-4E flown by

Capt. J. Harris and Capt. D. Wilkinson (both KIA).

 

Around 01:00PM, during the battle of Hai Duong, seven MiG-17s were

shot down by USN Phantms and one damaged (by an A-7 of VA-147). This

is the moment in which Lt. R. Cunningham/RIO Lt. W. Driscoll have

scored their 3rd, 4th and 5th kills for becoming first USN aces of the

war. However, the battle went not - as officially (and so often)

explained - without air-to-air losses for USN Phantoms. To contrary.

 

And, this is the point where Le Thanh Dao comes into the game for the

second time, but this time flying an MiG-21PFM of the 927th FR,

together with Vu Duc Hop. Dao and Hop sneaked upon two F-4Js of the

VF-92 and attacked them at the same moment Phantoms came under a heavy

flak fire. Le Thanh Dao fired the first K-13, damaging the Phantom of

Cdr. H. Blackburn/Lt. S. Rudloff; his second K-13 blew the fin of the

F-4J (Lt. Rudloff believed that an 85mm shell shot the fin off) and

the Phantom crashed, killing Cdr. Blackburn. Seconds later, the F-4J

flown by Lt. R. Dilworth was hit by an K-13 fired by Vu Duc Hop. The

damage shut one engine down. Dilworth - which never saw any of the two

MiGs - managed to land safely back at USS Constellation (and almost

shoot down the A-7 flown by Lt. G. Goryanec - the pilot which

previously damaged an MiG-17 - by the Sparrow he ejected!). Yet

Dillworth's Phantom (155560) was subsequently w/o.

 

Consequently, we have here a name Le THANH Dao, which certainly sounds

similar to "Toon" for somebody listening to comms from hundert or so

kms away, at the time Cunningham/Driscoll were in the air.

 

Thus, if the intelligence about "Col. Toon" was foremost based on

listening NVAF comms, then it sounds plausible,

 

- that "Toon" - but actually Le THANH Dao - was understood as flying

(at least) two times that day;

- that "Col. Toon's" first - but actually that of Le THANH Dao -

sortie would then be the one in the morning, when he rolled to the

start at Kep, right after Dang Ngoc Ngu and Nguyen Van Ngai which were

attacked by Dosé and Hawkins. US-services could hear even comms of

NVAF fighers while these were still on the ground, no prob with that;

- that "he" - but actually Le THANH Dao - was understood to have been

in the air again at the time Cunningham/Driscoll shot down their fifth

MiG. The only differences would be, that he flew MiG-21 and never meet

them, but passed nearby just some 30 seconds before future USN aces

were to engage their 5th MiG.

 

Considering the available informations, that sounds as most plausible

explanation to me.

 

Regards,

Tom

 

PS Oh, BTW, the first "US ace" in Vietnam were actually not

Cunningham/Driscoll, but an AQM-34L recce drone of the 100th SRW,

which caused a loss of five MiG-21s and MiG-17 during recce missions

over North Vietnam between March 1970 and mid-1971..

[+starfighter2 112]

Colonel Tomb(Tun) DID NOT exists. It was only personification of enemy pilot.

Colonel Nguyen Van Coc was most succesfull NVAF pilot with 9 air combat victories flying on MiG-21.Not only skill provide that-NVAF pilots didn't have time shift's like American pilots(more time to fly more potential enemy to shoot down-or to get killed).

That's pure truth...like it or not.

[Scout_51 0]

Once VPAF pilots transitioned into the MiG-21, and even moreso the MiG-21MF, they did not change aircraft types. This was a honor, as they were the hottest aircraft around and had the added advantage of the GSh-23 gun pack, thus giving a modicum of a fair fight once missiles were expended.

 

There are several pictures that Do show supposedly the aircraft of viet aces,they at times show two different birds,i.e a 17 and a 21 with same ammount of kill marks,makes a bit of sense since I understand the 17 was a much better dogfighter,the viets would have allowed them to fly both types?(depending how lucky they felt that day perhaps)...

[Scout_51 0]

sneaked upon two F-4Js of the

VF-92 and attacked them at the same moment Phantoms came under a heavy

flak fire. Le Thanh Dao fired the first K-13, damaging the Phantom of

Cdr. H. Blackburn/Lt. S. Rudloff; his second K-13 blew the fin of the

F-4J (Lt. Rudloff believed that an 85mm shell shot the fin off)

 

humm interesting,in ww2 a polish pilot of the 56th fg was being chased by germans,he flew right over a airfield(fast!) and the guys were shot down by their own flak..what is the range of the k13? what is considered heavy fire(numerous stories abound of flak over vietnam being heavier than over berling..) Im not doubting,just being a devils advocate so to speak...

[Scout_51 0]

Not only skill provide that-NVAF pilots didn't have time shift's like American pilots

 

I have to agree,thats one reason the german kill tallies are so big,they were flying over homeland(same went for the raf in battle of britain) so even if shot down more likely return to duty,plus all the targets available...russians had the same problem...to me thats another reason why the scores of gabreski,johnson,zemke et are impressive,they did it in one tour(for the most part) and over enemy territory,it has been studied in a few ways,one being to compare a american ace record against one german,the results balanced out rather well in kills per mission,tour and other ways..but our guys usually had the one tour,the enemy flew till severly wounded,dead or captured..by 72 our pilots had begun red flag and top-gun training,I think the balance was pretty even by then..

[+howling1 0]

I would tend to agree, especially since in the mid-60s, dogfighting had not been stressed in US training due to the belief that "Missiles made dogfighting obsolete" theory...

[+MK2 12]

Colonel Tomb(Tun) DID NOT exists. It was only personification of enemy pilot.

Colonel Nguyen Van Coc was most succesfull NVAF pilot with 9 air combat victories flying on MiG-21.Not only skill provide that-NVAF pilots didn't have time shift's like American pilots(more time to fly more potential enemy to shoot down-or to get killed).

That's pure truth...like it or not.

 

 

Starfighter I think everyone here understands that. We're trying to help uncover the identity of the pilot Cunningham shot down.

 

BTW I will post an Interview later tonight with Steve Ritchie , in 1972, a debrief for history done by the USAF and he discusses "Colonel Tomb" he ran into that VPAF pilot twice in his career (he was told after he landed both times) and even discusses his flying characteristics "He can really turn that air plane" He cared little about wingmen". So there was a hot shot pilot identified by the US, obviously not 13 kills, but some of the piltos we are disucssing had 2 or 3 kills to their names. Whoever the pilot was, he was good, we know that much.

 

There were very FEW VPAF pilots so the fact that Ritchie and Cunnigham ran into him is not far fetched at all.

[Scout_51 0]

Whoever the pilot was, he was good, we know that much.

 

Yep,he certainly was good,definetly one of the better ones,I like the idea of his identity remaining obscure. for one, the US would definetly have to recognize that there are excellent pilots in the other teams and train as such,for 2 there are some legends that are best leave as that..like who really shot down the red baron? was it a lucky shot by a bifocal wearing guy or the flying skill of Capt Brown ?,how many kills did maj bong really have(there was a whole lotta water to fly back to on both sides) could another 20/30 birds be added to his tally of damaged birds crashing on the way back..how about Col Gabreski,he was credited with 6 1/2 or so birds strafed and blown up,is straffing 'less' of a kill than blowing him out of the ski?(theres the flak and stuff all shooting up at you) his 28 plus those 7 1/2 plus the 6 or so in korea we have the American Ace of Aces...why did tommy mcguire crash? did he just used up his luck? did he get shot down but took a bit for the damage to do him in/,did he get too arrogant or tuneled vision and overstressed his p-38?...yeah there ought be legends,gives us chairborne aces something to ponder,to admire and respect..

[+MK2 12]

Scout I loved your reply so much(good stuff) that I feel like giving you my opinions on each and everyone. ....but I'll stay on the subject...here is more good stuff (I am trying to locate the complete interview).

 

 

 

Robey Price Aug 6 2001, 9:58 am hide options

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military

From: (Robey Price) - Find messages by this author

Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 16:46:57 GMT

Local: Mon, Aug 6 2001 9:46 am

Subject: Re: Colonel Tomb

 

Just to add to the confusion...in Steve Ritchie's _Oct 72_ interview for the

USAF Oral History program says, "As it turned out, we engaged a flight

of four MiG-21s with two MiG-21s and two [MiG] 19s high and in trail

with the first flight."

 

>IMHO, a rather probable version is, that Lodge and Markle have got

>both MiG-21s, and Ritchie - which followed rather a radar than visual

>contact (!) - has got Nguyen Hong Son on MiG-19, shooting it finally

>down by a Sparrow.

 

Respectfully, Ritchie reports that Lodge and Markle took face-shots

killed two MiG-21 then the 4-ship coverted to the rear hemisphere on

the second pair of 21s. Ritchie had a 'tally' on the MiG he shot down.

A MiG-21 from about 5000'-6000' feet aft.

 

 

>Of course, these are only names starting with T, but, knowing about so

>many different (and partially completely wrong) English spellings of

>certain other names (for people, places etc.) I wouldn't be surprised

>if some misinterpreted name was indeed the reason behind the whole

>legend behind the "Col. Toon"....

 

Again from Ritchie's perspective (as indicated by his interview),

 

Q: Are you familiar with Nguyen?

 

SR: Yes, he's called several different things--Tome, Colonel Tome,

General Nguyen, and the Red Baron.

 

Q: When you left [sEA], was he back on flying status?

 

SR: As far as I know.

 

Q: As far as you know?

 

SR: That's right.

 

Q: Do you know who shot him down?

 

SR: Do I know who shot him down? No. It is my understanding that he

has been shot down, since early in the war, a couple or three times

and that he ahs a number of F-4s to his credit. I've seen him a couple

of times. Of course, I didn't find [that] out until after the action.

The guy can really turn the airplane--really maneuver the

airplane--but he loses wingmen on a regular basis. He has little

concept of mutual support and doesn't care anything about his wingman.

He'll save himself, but he just leaves his wingmen and his wingmen

normally get shot down.

[Scout_51 0]

He has little

concept of mutual support and doesn't care anything about his wingman.

He'll save himself, but he just leaves his wingmen and his wingmen

normally get shot down.

 

Ohhh a prime example of a great pilot who is only out for hisself...wonder if his kill score includes wingmen?...how many wingmen per kill?..

[Scout_51 0]

Scout I loved your reply so much(good stuff) that I feel like giving you my opinions on each and everyone. ....but I'll stay on the subject...here is more good stuff (I am trying to locate the complete interview).

 

 

good stuff... has my attention now,good stuff like good 12 yr scotch or good 'stuff' like mad dog 20/20? good stuff like waking up with a pretty girl or good 'stuff' like waking up and afraid to see who's under the blanket?(badger ugly we called it)....good stuff like ..you get the idea.... :)

Edited April 6, 2005 by Scout_51