Red November - the East German Carrier

[PraetorH 166]

The Hunt for RED NOVEMBER

 

In the mid-80ies, the East German Volksmarine comissioned its new flag ship: the Schwere Flugdeckkreuzer ROTER NOVEMBER, named in honour of the November revolution in Germany which was initiated by the sailors of the navy. Its task was to secure the Baltic Sea, support the conquest of Denmark by Pact marine forces, and break through to the Northern Sea together with the Soviet Red Banner Baltic Fleet. The presence of an aircraft carrier - even one as limited as the ROTER NOVEMBER - changed the balance of power in the Baltic.

 

The first contact, however, was not made by the Bundesmarine, but by the US Navy when ROTER NOVEMBER transferred from the Soviet docks to E-Germany.

[Snailman 517]

Nice work!!! ))  Looks good!  So no VOLKSMARINE text then?

[Stratos 3,167]

Hey pretty cool!! Thanks for sharing!!

[+Coupi 4,279]

Very good!

[PraetorH 166]

Thanks!

 

I have to be honest and say that the name RED NOVEMBER is merely a joke, since I had just read "The Hunt for Red October". The Red Griffin is a hint to the true name, POMMERN (Engl.: Pomerania), which is a region in North-East Germany and its coat of arms features the Red Griffon. This name is also better in line with the East German naming convention of ships.

Now I just have to create a few E-German ships... Sadly, there are none in game. Surprisingly E-Germany had a rather impressive indigenous ship-building programme considering how small the country was - and how insignificant the navy. But some Soviet copies will do for the POMMERN battlegroup.

 

I just wish the Yak-38 was a better plane. Defending yourself against Tomcats and Hornets is not really fun... I wonder how they would have performed in real conflict.

 

 

Nice work!!! ))  Looks good!  So no VOLKSMARINE text then?

 

Nope. I had it on, but deleted it again, because the small plane really looks a bit cluttered with all the insignia, numbers, coat of arms, and VOLKSMARINE text. Moreover, unlike the West German Bundesmarine, the Volksmarine aircraft did not sport such a text.

Historically speaking, this is probably what an East German Yak-38 would have looked like (perhaps with a smaller Griffin). Maybe they would have had an all blue camouflage... I could do that. But I like the combination of blue and green a lot.

[fallenphoenix1986 603]

I just wish the Yak-38 was a better plane. Defending yourself against Tomcats and Hornets is not really fun... I wonder how they would have performed in real conflict.

 

 

Badly I'm guessing, the Russiand had two nicknames for it that I'm aware of, "Pigeon of Peace".. and "Foremast Defence Fighter"... its ok for intercepting a close MPA bird anything more than that is suicide. I suppose you could launch them and place the CAP in such a manner as to attempt to dictate the aproach path of an inbound strike then focus your SAM's into that corridor however going toe to toe against Tomcats and Hornets would be a lost cause.

 

Craig

[Snailman 517]

The Yak-38 performance - among other soviet craft - is a never ending debate )   All in all, when looking at performance it must be compared with contemporary Harriers or other VTOL experimental planes. Also it should not be forgotten that the Yak-38 is not a fighter-interceptor but a light attack aircraft.

[PraetorH 166]

Well, the Yak-38 may not be a fleet defender in the sense of the Tomcat, and the Kiev-Class is not meant to tangle with 'real' US carrier battle groups. But I still think as light attack craft, the Yak-38 has little operational use: bomb load and range are very restricted, meaning the carrier would have to be close to the shore exposing itself to all sorts of trouble.

I really think that hunting for enemy ASW and maybe even small AWACS planes probably helps the general fleet effort better, especially supporting own subs. And while the Yak-38 is not an impressive fighter, it's lack of radar and any modern electronics make it harder to detect. I could well imagine a well led Forger flight to sneak up on a few planes. Even if detected, the presence of an enemy fighter force urges the NATO to send out their own fighters and be careful with their ASW assets. Add the Soviet long range aviation and the naval aviation to the mix, and things start to look interesting.

By contrast, everything the Yak-38 could bomb could be bombed better by the other branches of service.

 

If the Forger had been a supersonic, or at least been equipped with better AA weaponry - as it was planned apparently - it could have created more than a little trouble. For gameplay purposes I am going to add at least all aspect missiles.

 

 

Ironically, I think the Yak-38 and the Kiev-Class would perform even better in the Baltic. While there is not really much space to hide, the ship does not need to expose itself by using radar, since the land based radar can guide the fighter. On the other hand, I don't think the Kiev-Class could stand up to a concentrated attack of the W-German Marineflieger with their Tornados.

[Snailman 517]

I just referred to it's official designation (Палубный Штурмовик) "On-deck Attacker" )))

Of course the armament configuration more resembles the payload of a multi-role fighter. If you look at the MiG-21M (Многоцелевой), the armament choice is identical (except the radar guided R-3R missiles). What is little known that the Yak-38 could very well take off with it's maximum payload within 300-400meters when operating from a ground strip in Afghanistan.

[+Gepard 10,241]

 

I have to be honest and say that the name RED NOVEMBER is merely a joke, since I had just read "The Hunt for Red October". The Red Griffin is a hint to the true name, POMMERN (Engl.: Pomerania), which is a region in North-East Germany and its coat of arms features the Red Griffon.

 

Ehm, Pommern is a former prussian province. The major part of this province is located eastward of the Oder river, what means, that it is today part of Poland. And our polish allies would have been a little bit more than  upset if the Volksmarine would have named a ship with the name "Pommern".

Geographicaly correct would be "Vorpommern", but names like these were not used in the GDR. The country was devided in local districts (Bezirke), comparable with the french departement structure, so names like Thüringen, Sachsen etc were not used for naming of ships.

Correct ship names were names of towns and cities or names of "revolutionary people". AFAIK in the last periode of the GDR only names of towns and cities were used.

 

 

But it is a What If.  Give it the name you want.  I like it.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Gepard

[PraetorH 166]

Thanks for the input! I think it is quite fitting that the ship is named for a region rather than a city, since it is a huge ship, so it should have a bigger name so to speak. Naming such a giant (by the DDR’s standards) NEUBRANDENBURG would be odd imo.

As for the political implications… you are right the Poles might get a bit itchy about it, on the other hand it is a historical region first and foremost, and it is not like the ship is named for Westpommern. Well still it is probably better naming the ship VORPOMMERN. Alternatively the ship could be a joint German-Polish ops. Despite a rather hostile relationship between the E-German and Polish navy (they came to exchange shots a few times), the Soviets in their Baltic command tried to integrate and merge both navies as much as possible.

[+Gepard 10,241]

Fire exchanges between polish and GDR forces are new for me. Have never heared about it. That the polish Navy fired some rounds accidently on a west german ship in 1987, yes, that happend. But polish vs GDR? I doubt.

In 1981 there was a big "chance" for a big bang between Poland and the GDR. When Poland was nearly broke down caused by the Solidarnosc thing the WP states prepared themself for an invation. The Militärbezirk V was ordered to make a covered mobilization of forces and 2 or 3 Divisions in the north of the GDR were set in high alert, got full wartime ammo and their staffs were already working on attack plans to reach Kolberg and the Leba Lake into 7 days.

When Jaruzelski took over the power in Poland the planes were cancelled, but still during my military time in the end of the 80th i heard in some under the hand talks, that in 1981 "we had missed a big chance chance to get back, what belongs to us."

I was astonished to hear such revanchistic statements, not only by ordinary soldiers, but by higher ranking officers too.

Maybe a "Pommern" aircraftcarrier would fit into such a scenario.

[PraetorH 166]

There was a bit of ramming, warning shots, and Polish politicians who wanted their navy to shoot E-German ships on sight. It is a bit hard to investigate the topic, because it was naturally kept under wraps.

http://ddr-luftwaffe.blogspot.de/2008/03/ddr-gegen-vr-polen-zwischenflle-vor.html

 

It is interesting to hear the talk about the "missed chance", but it does not really surprise me. Despite the dictated friendship there was a lot of animosity. I am not sure if the Soviets would have risked the political outcry caused by German troops marching into Poland 1981, like they forbit the NVA marching into the CSSR 1968, but in both cases the NVA was ready and - as far as I could gather - even eager to do so.

[+Gepard 10,241]

In 1968 the soviets wanted that the GDR took part in the CSSR invasion, but in this only one time Ulbricht (ZK Chef) resist against the soviet will. So the GDR forces stayed along the borderline on GDR territory. But it is true, that there are rumours about a german participation. This rumours are partly true. Some days before the soviet invasion the WP held a troop exercise in the slovak part of the CSSR with NVA participation. It were only a fistfull communication troops. 30 or 40 men or so. This tiny force was on the way home, when the soviet invasion started and they tried to avoid WP marching columns at all costs, so that the marchroute went trough the Riesengebirge along the polish czech border to the saxon swizerland mountains, were they arrived GDR territory without having troubles with the czech people. Perhaps it was helpfull that in the marching area still a lot of people were able to speak german language.

 

Your point of animosities between us and the polish you are right. We had a proverb: "With Poland as ally you need no enemy."

On the other hand i knew a lot of polish people which a good guys (and girls).

[+Gepard 10,241]

BBC news alert: East german Forgers attacked the Invincible battle group some miles west of the island of Rügen after S-300PMU SAM systems annihilated the Sea Harriers. The first strike hits the picket shipes,

 

 

while the missiles of the main strike hit the british carrier and sunk it.

 

Edited August 5, 2014 by Gepard

[PraetorH 166]

That must have been daring Brits to venture into the Baltic.

 

I wonder what the biggest missile is that the Forger can carry...?

[+Gepard 10,241]

Cha-23 NATO designation AS-7 Kerry was seen on Yak-38M and during the AFG campaign the Cha-25 NATO designation AS-10 Karen was used. The screenshots show Cha-25MP missiles.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Gepard