F-86F Limit Load Factor? Tech order 1F-86F-511/544?

[GalmOne 1]

In the DCS module, the F-86F has limit load factors in symmetric flight between -3/+7G. In the T.O. 1F-86F-1 manual, it states that  "Positive G limits for airplanes not changed by T.O. 1F-86F-544 are 5.0 G for straight pull-outs and 3.3 G for rolling pullouts". Furthermore, a picture of the F-86F accelerometer pegged with red marks on the -3 and +7G lines apply only to "F-86F-1 through F-86F-35 airplanes changed by T.O. 1F-86F-511, and F-86F-40 airplanes".

Does anyone know what these technical orders are and if they applied to Korean-War F-86F's or our F-86? The above quotes in the manual make me feel that Korean War F-86F's could only pull +5G which doesn't seem right based on what I've read everywhere else. I can't find a shred of info on any Sabre that is only rated at +5G.

 

If you need the link to the actual manual, I can post it here but didn't now since not sure if the devs allow it.

Edited September 14, 2014 by GalmOne

[+Dave 2,318]

Well its still a work in progress so I am not sure if the FM is right yet. 

[GalmOne 1]

Well its still a work in progress so I am not sure if the FM is right yet. 

The +7G load will stay on our F-86 because it's a post-Korean War aircraft. I am wondering if the Korean War Sabres had the 7G limit load or the 5G one used as sustained.

[+Dave 2,318]

That is a good question GalmOne. I might take breaking out the manual and doing the tests and then graphing it to see if the FM is right. 

[GalmOne 1]

That is a good question GalmOne. I might take breaking out the manual and doing the tests and then graphing it to see if the FM is right.

 

Well I'm not sure if that's the case. If the turn rates at 7 G match the EM plots, then pulling 5 won't draw any new conclusions. The DCS Sabre is technically a post Korean War plane, and as such does correctly pull 7 G maximum as a sustained limit (not sustained turn). My question is really if the Korean War Sabres had this limit or the lower 5 G limit. If the latter is the case, which seems unlikely, then Korean War scenarios in DCS would have to limit the Sabre's max G. More than anything though, I'm just very curious as to whether this plane was so limited as to only pull 5 G which would be a huge handicap in combat over Korea.

[Do335 382]

GalmOne,

 

my interpretation is that the 5g limit is only a graphic thing on the instrument, and not related to aircraft performance. the real limit is drawn on that table below, from which you can see that g limits are dependent on many factors. a "red line" on the instrument only serves as a reference.

[+Gepard 10,241]

Soviet MiG-15 pilots of Korean War told, that they often pulled their MiG's with more than 5g and the americans were easily following them. So a 5g limit is not believeable.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Gepard

[Fubar512 1,350]

5 G's was the wings-level limit when carrying drop tanks. Even the USN did not adhere to this, as they rated the FJ-2 Fury for 5.2 Gs under the same conditions, and 6.5 G's when unencumbered.  While performing research for the F-86 flight dynamics models for the KAW add-on pack for SF2, I came across several reported incidents where pilots reported achieving instantaneous G-loads in excess of 8 Gs during pullout, and sustaining "at least 7 Gs" during a banked turn at 500 MPH at low altitude, with no notable airframe damage.

 

The F-86E and F-models (because of their all flying tail), were extremely responsive, and test pilots soon discovered that it was possible for those aircraft to suffer from what they termed "G-force overshoot", which occurred mostly after  bottoming out from a high-speed dive below 20,000 feet. The aircraft would reportedly buffet heavily while pulling out (at least initially), then it would suddenly begin smoothing out and tightening the turn by itself, as the pilot maintained steady back pressure on the stick. It would then shoot past 8 Gs in an instant.  You can find this behavior discussed in this USN training film on the FJ-2:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aNWAgQj3RM

Edited October 6, 2014 by Fubar512