+Dave 2,318 Posted December 28, 2014 Over 3500 total coalition troops in all KIA in Afghanistan. Today the war formally ended as it's being reported. Did we win? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Gepard 10,241 Posted December 28, 2014 (edited) Clausewitz definitions: "War is an act of violence with whom we try to force the enemy to accept our will." The aim of war is the victory. "We achieve the victory if the enemy is accepting our will or he has nothing left to resist our will." Written in the book "Vom Kriege" in 1830. Following this definitions we must ask. Does the enemy (Talibans) accept our will? The answer is no. Does the Taliban have resources to fight and resist our will? The answer is yes. The conclusion: Whatever will tell us our politicians, we dont have won. We lost. Why? Back to von Clausewitz: "To achieve the victory it is neccessary to to fight with all means and methods while stretching all powers. If not you will lose." Or with other words "do the thing right or let it be". Does the west used all means and methods? Does he used all of his mighty power? No. And why not? Because our politicans believe the definition of war is an other word of Clausewitz: "War is the continuation of politics by other means." What means, that they believe they can make war like politics. No real idea, no real intention, no real target. They try to muddle up, try to bumble. Send out much to less troops, sent out much to less power and have no idea what should come after the first easy days. And so the western states (and i include the USSR here) does not really won all the wars after 1945. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Libya. Hollywood tells us, we were victorious. But look at the map. Everywhere only wasted lifes of soldiers, who died for nothing. Edited December 28, 2014 by Gepard 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
macelena 1,070 Posted December 28, 2014 Afghanistan is still a shithole, but the coalition bumped it in a way they have a chance to move forward. It won´t make bullshit stop happening, but you have to start with something. Wether what has been achieved was worth the sacrifices undertaken in this 13 years, you can´t walk into some orphan or widow and tell them the world is better because their husband or father died there. Afghans have been given a chance, and it is the country wich grew the most in the last decade. Whatever it was worthy or not depends on what they do now. But it will take much more work and sacrifices to get them to be a fairly decent country. However, if you want a second hand opinion, you can ask OBL. You just have to send the Seals back after him because i think he was somewhere underwater playing Aquaman 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snailman 517 Posted December 28, 2014 Wars of such is not fought to win. War is like disease. The longer it lasts, it brings the most profit for the vultures. Victory or defeat? Who cares when the public money, the property of the people is being transformed into private property of the chosen few?? How many millions dies to feed the world's cancer? God only know if they acted right of not. But they thought to serve their homeland with honor. Utmost naivety to think anyone can tame those lands. Even if there were intent. Only the NATO occupation keeps it together, like Bosnia or other such places. The puppet is dead without the masters. There is no "afghan" people. Afghanistan is a multi national country. Never will be unified or pacified completely. Only by partitioning on ethnic backgrounds, and annexation by neighboring countries with respective ethnicity. As a soviet politician said in the late 80s. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snailman 517 Posted December 28, 2014 Everywhere only wasted lifes of soldiers, who died for nothing. Not for nothing. The government (of any country) "waste" it's budget on military/security expenses (and propaganda media) which goes to private firms of their friends. The fat gets more fat. The people pay more taxes... and lose freedom. One planned "crisis" one after another. More strict laws that ties normal people who are being kept if fear by projected and fake enemies, staged violence. Create a problem. Be the solution. For good price. Have internal problems? Project it on another nation, relieve tension and distract the attention of the masses. This a certain form of modern, pervert, terrific science ... 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Muesli 2,151 Posted December 28, 2014 I never say "for nothing" anymore...I thought my efforts in 1994 (I was part of UNPROFOR in war torn Bosnia) were in vain and completelypointless. I thought I and others had been sent there just as an empty gesture.In 2005 I returned to Bosnia for the first time after my tour. I needed to confront myself with some demons of my past, and in a rather large industrial town in central Bosnia I stumbled upon a woman who was a young kid during the war. What she said to me changed/changes my attitude towards conflict. She said: "Although you may think you have done nothing, you were here to TRY to make a difference when others chose to turn their backs. THAT alone gave us the feeling that others cared, so it mattered. So you did NOT do nothing, you did a lot! You helped make the war a bit less heavy on our shoulders by sharing our burden!"Well, that is what made me think the way I think now. If it all seems pointless, unneccessary, a drop on a hot plate... it is never a wasted effort or a wasted life. We all made/make a change.Just my two cents... 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Derk 265 Posted December 28, 2014 I never say "for nothing" anymore... I thought my efforts in 1994 (I was part of UNPROFOR in war torn Bosnia) were in vain and completely pointless. I thought I and others had been sent there just as an empty gesture. In 2005 I returned to Bosnia for the first time after my tour. I needed to confront myself with some demons of my past, and in a rather large industrial town in central Bosnia I stumbled upon a woman who was a young kid during the war. What she said to me changed/changes my attitude towards conflict. She said: "Although you may think you have done nothing, you were here to TRY to make a difference when others chose to turn their backs. THAT alone gave us the feeling that others cared, so it mattered. So you did NOT do nothing, you did a lot! You helped make the war a bit less heavy on our shoulders by sharing our burden!" Well, that is what made me think the way I think now. If it all seems pointless, unneccessary, a drop on a hot plate... it is never a wasted effort or a wasted life. We all made/make a change. Just my two cents... VERY well said Iwan, your story belongs in our new museum between the stories of all the other men and women who went to war for the benefit of fellow humans......... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Muesli 2,151 Posted December 29, 2014 VERY well said Iwan, your story belongs in our new museum between the stories of all the other men and women who went to war for the benefit of fellow humans......... Ehm... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capitaine Vengeur 263 Posted January 1, 2015 Well, without foreign support by now, how long before President Ghani's body is exposed in Kabul as part of the Najibullah Club of shattered foreign-planted puppets? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snailman 517 Posted January 1, 2015 Well, without foreign support by now, how long before President Ghani's body is exposed in Kabul as part of the Najibullah Club of shattered foreign-planted puppets? Like Potroshenko in Ukraine... the people want his blood. Same with our president, whom - now how interesting - the US too wants to get rid of because he proved to be a bad puppet)))) We also want his blood because a corrupt maffioso. Next Maidan in Budapest? )) If the joke is about you, you aren't laughing )) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PFunk 198 Posted January 1, 2015 If your definition of 'victory' is the enemy accepting our terms and acquiescence to our authority, then, no. We did not 'win'. Our troops were victorious in every battle. They were not defeated. Ever. They did everything they were asked to do and more. Trouble is, we keep asking our troops to do some really dumb stuff. Foreign policy is the useless yappy Schnauzer of American politics. It's loud, stupid, and only responds to a smack on the nose with a rolled-up magazine. Our response to 9/11 should have been carpet-bombing Riyadh. With all the respect I can muster for our friends across the oceans, there is not one nation worth sacrificing our blood and treasure for. I'm tired of helping people who turn around and bitch endlessly about our help. We spent billions of dollars and thousands of lives to build a nation and a military with tanks, guns, and airplanes that folded like a cheap suit at the sight of thugs in Toyota mini trucks. Attention all Iraqi males ages 16-44, fight for your damned country. It was not worth what we lost and I strongly propose we never do it again. The bet thing we can do for our veterans is to make fewer of them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capitaine Vengeur 263 Posted January 2, 2015 If your definition of 'victory' is the enemy accepting our terms and acquiescence to our authority, then, no. We did not 'win'. Our troops were victorious in every battle. They were not defeated. Ever. They did everything they were asked to do and more. Vietnam, exactly. I read this story of an U.S. general talking with a North Vietnamese general, after the War: "You know, we never lost any one battle." The Viet answered: "It is true." and after a moment: "It is also irrelevant." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eagle2046 2 Posted January 10, 2015 Thank God for our troops service...the finest in the world. I thank them everyday, unfortunately, I'll think ttat craphole will be visited by us again in the future. We sometimes never learn. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
