"Finis - The End of the Luftwaffe"

[Olham 164]

Not sure if this colour footage was posted here before. I found it interesting to see

Adolf Galland - the man who was first the youngest General in the German forces,

and who got arrested after confronting Hermann Goering.

When the Third Reich came to it's end, Galland was allowed to form the famous

JV (Jagdverband) 44. Equipped with the first operational jet fighter Me 262, this

unit intercepted Allied bombers.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdverband_44

Edited September 16, 2015 by Olham

[JimAttrill 24]

Very interesting video showing shots of Rudel and 'smiling Albert' Kesselring that I have never seen before.  Rudel and Goering were both interviewed by Capt. Eric Brown RN (who is still alive) and he does write that Rudel was real Nazi and admirer of Hitler not that that was unusual in those days.  He said the same about Hanna Reitsch who he really admired.  Hanna wrote that famous letter to him just before she died.  She was reputed to be the mistress of Robert Ritter von Greim who was the last head of the Luftwaffe and who committed suicide in the Berlin bunker. 

[Olham 164]

Thank you for the info, Jim. Goering should be called "Herr Meyer" in that video -

that was the new name he had chosen for himself, if ever an Allied bomber should

appear over Berlin. And we all know: there came many of them.

Rudel was AFAIK definitely a staunch Nazi.

Galland seems to have changed during the war, at least so far that he objected

"Herr Meyer" several times, until he got arrested.

The allowance for him to build up JV 44 came directly from Hitler.

"Herr Meyer" might have been boiling about that.

[Hauksbee 103]

I've always wondered why, during the Battle of Britain, Goering gave in to the bomber pilots and ordered his fighters to fly close in. Being a former fighter pilot himself, he must have known that it only made them low-energy targets.

[Olham 164]

... he must have known that it only made them low-energy targets.

 

That, and then they also had only a limited operational time over England before they had to return cause the fuel went out.

[Hellshade 110]

They almost had England beat too.    The runways were being decimated.   The planes couldn't get repaired fast enough.   Then the Germans accidentally bombed London itself - if I recall properly.    The British got royally pissed (pun intended) and sent light bombers to bomb Berlin.  They did negligible damage but Hitler had promised that the war would never come to Berlin, so he gave his (in)famous speech saying "Fine.  If they want to drop 100, 200, 300 bombs on Berlin, we will drop 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 bombs on London" and the bombing targets switched from military airfields to civilian population centers.    As horrible as it was for the British population, it gave the RAF a reprieve and the time it needed to get back fully into the fight. 

 

There were several factors working against the Germans in the Battle of Britain:

 

The had no heavy bombers - only medium and dive bombers

Limited time over the target due to fuel concerns so they couldn't take long tangling with the Spits and Hurricanes.

British Radar allowed the RAF to conserve fuel and only launch fighters when needed because they could see the Germans coming

A downed British fighter landed on friendly territory and might be able to be saved but a downed German bomber or fighter crew was probably lost for good, even if they survived the bail out.

 

But even with all of that working against the Germans, they still had the British on the ropes until they changed tactics.   I've often said "Pride makes a piss poor replacement for practicality."   If Hitler had kept on doing the same strategy and attacking the RAF, it might very well have been a different ending to that battle.   

 

If my understanding of the facts is incorrect, I defer to those who know better.

[Olham 164]

If Hitler had kept on doing the same strategy and attacking the RAF, it might very well have been a different ending to that battle.   

 

Well, he only achieved the rank of a private in WW1, if I remember correctly.

How can such a man decide about such strategies?

And how could those who knew better follow him without much opposition?

To follow the leader blind was a German characteristic back then.

 

I am very glad that the outcome was like it was.

I visited England several times, and I like the country and it's people, as they are.

I cannot imagine them living under Nazi rules.

And I am glad that the Allied forces finally beat the Nazi regime - I would not want

to live under such conditions.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Olham

[Hellshade 110]

I believe he made Corporal in WWI.  And you are right that he didn't tolerate people questioning his directives, so even if his Command Staff thought he was wrong, nobody was going to tell him otherwise, especially when Hitlers' pride was on the line.   In fairness though, it should also be said that up until that time Hitler had led them from victory to victory.    Even if he wasn't an all powerful tyrant, he had a string of victories to his name that nobody could question...including beating France in like 6 weeks.  Something they spent 4 years trying to do in WWI.  So they obeyed. 

[Olham 164]

I'm not so sure, if the early victories were Hitler's successes, or those of Generals like Erwin Rommel.

The invasion with tank divisions through the Ardennes, bypassing the Maginot Line, was rather the

unorthodox idea and leadership of Rommel, as far as I know. The Stuka was an idea of Ernst Udet -

the Jericho trumpet included. With such "ingredients" a Blitzkrieg could be fought - in the beginning.

But when the opponents had learnt their lessons, they came up with new strategies.

And the Germans, fighting on several fronts, overstretched their armies, and did not have the long

breath, like the Russians had.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Olham

[Hellshade 110]

Oh without a doubt many (maybe all) of the strategies were not Hitlers, however like most leaders (and all tyrants), the population gives him the credit especially when things go well.   I imagine to the average German at that time, it must have seemed that Hitler was a military genius because their nation marched from victory to victory in record time under his "military leadership."  

 

It wasn't Stalin who came up with the strategy to defend the Soviet Union either.   That was Zhukov (if I remember correctly).   Still, you could say great things about Zhukov but it wasn't wise to say it without also giving great credit to Stalin.     If the Command Staff of the Soviet Union of that time had to choose between supporting Stalin or Zhukov, it was a life or death decision that you had one chance to get right.   I'm sure it was much the same in Germany under Hitler. 

[Olham 164]

If the Command Staff of the Soviet Union of that time had to choose between supporting Stalin or Zhukov, it was a life or death decision that you had one chance to get right.   I'm sure it was much the same in Germany under Hitler. 

 

Yeah, in that respekt they almost rivaled, who's the more cruel leader.

[Hauksbee 103]

If my understanding of the facts is incorrect, I defer to those who know better.

You're spot on, Hellshade. Most everybody agrees that Fighter Command was on the ropes just before that 'unfortunate incident' of bombing London. Winston Churchill described that night as the one that lifted his spirits most during the Battle of Britain. As he and his staff stood on the rooftops watching London burn, he said he knew that this would bring America in. England's fortunes had just taken a turn for the better.

 

Britain's tit-for-tat bombing of Berlin was the perfect stroke to drive Hitler into a rage. Fighter Command was off the hook.

 

The problem with the Luftwaffe was that it was always seen as an adjunct to the Wehrmacht. It's fighters would attack enemy airbases and establish air superiority. The ground troops would advance. When they hit a hotly defended point, they'd pause and call in the Stukas to destroy the enemy position and the Wehrmact would pour through the hole. Bombers were for knocking out airfields, rail hubs, truck convoys, etc. It was strictly tactical, support-the-ground-troops thinking. There was no long range strategic thinking. The same held true for the Navy. The Nazis hadn't a clue about naval warfare.

[Olham 164]

There was no long range strategic thinking. The same held true for the Navy. The Nazis hadn't a clue about naval warfare.

 

...which was definitely a British tradition.

[Hellshade 110]

 There was no long range strategic thinking. The same held true for the Navy. The Nazis hadn't a clue about naval warfare.

 

I think the German strategy for the navy was mostly just to send in U-Boat packs to disrupt supplies so that Britain got weaker and hopefully collapsed before America could truly enter the war. 

 

Once the Americans figured out technology and strategies for dealing with U-Boats - I believe in April of '42, that ruined that strategy and turned the tables very quickly.   Suddenly U-Boat survivability wasn't there and the lifeline to England opened quickly as more and more supplies got through.

[Olham 164]

The cracking of the ENIGMA code was a great success for the Allied forces.

Now they KNEW where each submarine was sent to operate.

[Hellshade 110]

The cracking of the ENIGMA code was a great success for the Allied forces.

Now they KNEW where each submarine was sent to operate.

 

There is a fabulous movie about that called the Imitation Game.  It was released in 2014.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuPZUUED5uk

[Olham 164]

There was at least one film about the work of Alan Touring before this one.

Touring's success in decrypting German messages might have been the key to winning the war.

The tragedy for Touring came only little later.

In the early 50s he had to undergo a chemical castration, because it became public that he was

homosexual. The enforced treatment led to a deep depression, and Touring commited suicide

two years later. What a sorrowful end for a man who had served his country so well!

 

The trailer for this one looks very promising - I'll rent me a Blueray of it soon.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Olham

[Hauksbee 103]

What a sorrowful end for a man who had served his country so well!

Turing should have been hailed as a National Treasure, a war hero on a par with Bernard Montgomery, seeing as Monty was conducting his war with Alan's intel.

[JimAttrill 24]

Hitler was a Gefreiter in WWI.  Not very popular by all accounts but brave.   He went to school with Wittgenstein it appears - I have seen a school photo and have a copy somewhere.

 

In WWII the Luftwaffe was seen as an adjunct to the Wehrmacht as Hauksbee says and was very successful as such.  But they never had much of a strategy and their only strategic bomber the He 177 was a failure. 

 

As a computer person I have always been interested in Turing even though I am no mathematician.   I enjoyed the film "The Imitation Game" even though it is full of factual errors.  But as the director of the film said he was doing a story and not a documentary. 

 

After watching the film I got on the net and downloaded an Enigma simulator - there are a few good ones about.  I used it to send messages from one computer to the other!  http://enigma.louisedade.co.uk/index.html There is a wonderful web site out there that details exactly how they managed to break the codes - sometimes actions that I (and the Germans) thought would increase security made the codes easier to break.  One fault was using standard military expressions which the British picked up on - for example Rommel's quartermaster general always started his messages with the same salutation.  Also captured German spies in England would send messages back via radio to Germany.  The SD then used to code them verbatim in Enigma and send them to others.  So the code breakers had what they called a 'crib'. 

 

Without getting too technical, one thing that made the Enigma breakable was that as it was also used as a decoder of messages (you put the code in backwards so to speak and out comes the plain text) no character could be coded as itself.  So if you saw an A in code that meant that the text could only be one of the 25 other characters.   It's all fascinating stuff

Edited September 19, 2015 by JimAttrill