Hauksbee 103 Posted November 7, 2015 Watching a YouTube video about WWI flying, I was struck by the narrator's pronouncing 'Bertangles' just as you'd expect for a English word: "Ber-tangles'. But being a French word ( the pronunciation of which always confounds me) I had always assumed that it would be pronounced "Ber-tan-glay". Can someone set me straight? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) One never knows, how location names are spelled by the people round there - "Ber-ton-gle" with a "short E" at the end, and the "s" not spelled, is more likely. But "Worcestershire" for example is spelled "Woostersher" - my school English absolutely failed me there... Edited November 7, 2015 by Olham Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Dora 171 Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) Really? You'll be suggesting next that Ypres should be pronounced the Belgian way as "ee-preh", and not as the (correct :) Tommy way as _Wipers_? Edited November 7, 2015 by Mike Dora Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted November 7, 2015 Mmuahahahahaaa!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
33LIMA 972 Posted November 7, 2015 There's nothing amiss with a degree of Anglicisation in the pronunciation, for an Anglophone audience, of any foreign placename, methinks. Nobody, in that context, would pronounce 'Paris' as 'Paree'. Pronouncing exactly as the locals would (or attempting to) can sound like an affectation - unless you are talking to a local! However, 'Bertangles' is one of those placenames where the local pronunciation (I would say Olham's version is correct, to my ears) works best, I think. 'Bert Angles' could well have been what the local Tommies called it but unless the narrator was making an unusually careful effort to 'get into character' I think he was off target - just as today, 'Wipers' is not a reasonable Anglicisation of 'Ypres', even tho it's well-known WW1 TommySpeak version justifies its use in the context of a WW1 narrative or commentary. Anyway, enough of that. I'm due back at Lang-knee-cort for the next patrol :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JFM 18 Posted November 8, 2015 My understanding is Bertangles is pronounced "ber TONG." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hauksbee 103 Posted November 8, 2015 Jaysus! My understanding of French pronunciation is worse than I thought. But if you're sure, Jim, then 'Ber-tong' it is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JimAttrill 24 Posted November 8, 2015 the one base (used by the Germans though) that you can't get wrong in English is Fismes. This is not pronounceable in English unless you drop the middle S. And then you get the French pronunciation right. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted November 8, 2015 (edited) Jim, we'd need a French here to be sure, but from my French in school days, it should be rather "Ber-tongle". EDIT: Here we go - set the left frame in this website to "Englisch" and fill in "Bertangles" without quotation marks. Set the right frame to "French/Französisch". Then click in the right frame on the speaker symbol, and you should hear it in French spelling. https://www.google.de/?gws_rd=ssl#q=French+pronounciation I tested several names, like Ypres, Frescaty, Lagnicourt, Bertincourt and even the Belgian Marckebeeke - and it sounds like I have heard the French people speak (been there 4 times9. Edited November 8, 2015 by Olham Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JFM 18 Posted November 8, 2015 Cool! So, if that's accurate, for the sake of completeness of this subject: "BEH tong leh." I agree, a French human would be best to ask this stuff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted November 8, 2015 (edited) Yes - but it sounds like I've learned it in school, so I think it's alright. Just tested some names which I had heard spelled by French, and they sounded good. For place names you can never be totally sure though - a Bavarian village name might be pronounced there quite different to how an East Frisian would spell it. Edited November 8, 2015 by Olham Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JimAttrill 24 Posted November 8, 2015 (edited) I used to live at Gosfield in Essex for a while. I spent a lot of time in one of the pubs there. The next village up the road was Hedingham sometimes called Sybil Hedingham. Often foreigners* would ask the way to 'hedingham' and all the locals would deny all knowledge of such a place. This is because the local pronunciation was more like 'Hayam'. (A foreigner* is anyone from more than 10 miles away or sometimes even less. Londoners were as foreign as the Japanese to them and about as well liked) I liked that pub. When they called 'time gentlemen' all the foreigners* would leave and we would carry on drinking. I once left there at 4am! My car was alone in the car park with a police car next to it with two cops. I then walked home.... Edited November 8, 2015 by JimAttrill Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted November 8, 2015 Haha, good one, Jim! I also have a short story here. When I travelled through England by motorbike with a friend, back in 1973, we once came to a pub in the outskirts of London. We just managed to drink one beer, when the landlord rang the bell for "last orders" - we were damn late. When we asked what to do, and told him we didn't have such rules were we came from, and that we were still very thirsty, he said "Okay, gentlemen - can you sing?" Shy we asked, if we would have to sing for another beer, but when he said "no", we said, yes, we could sing. He said: "Alright, gentlemen from Germany - I hereby declare you valid members of the "Bell & Crown amateurs' choir". Club meetings are allowed even after 23 h - what will you have to drink?" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hauksbee 103 Posted November 8, 2015 "BEH-tong-leh". Allright! That's a great site, Olham. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JimAttrill 24 Posted November 8, 2015 Cool! So, if that's accurate, for the sake of completeness of this subject: "BEH tong leh." I agree, a French human would be best to ask this stuff. My French-speaking wife agrees with that - the stress is on the first, but the last syllable is completely unstressed and almost unheard. This would be the standard French pronunciation of such a word. (not like Reims which sounds like rañz with a nasal n rather than an m - English speakers tend to call it 'reems' which is not right at all). And of course there are the Flemish names like Paschendaele (called 'passion dale' by the British) where you have to know a bit of Flemish or Dutch pronunciation to get it right - or even Afrikaans. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JFM 18 Posted November 8, 2015 All these foreign (to me) pronunciations are why I have refused all requests for speaking engagements! I'd look like an ass. Spelling is much easier than pronunciation. Throw out one "GEYEneemer" or attempt at saying "Beugneux-Cramoiselle" and bye-bye credibility. As far as English accents, a friend in London pronounces Hurricane "Herken." And it's interesting to me that ALL my German friends have traces of English accents amongst their German accents when speaking English. Obviously, their roots to the language have UK rather than US origins. Still, and sadly, most of my European/Scandinavian friends have a better command of written English than many youngsters I know. Olham and Hasse, for instance. Their English puts some of my niece's and nephew's to shame. To shame. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted November 9, 2015 All these foreign (to me) pronunciations are why I have refused all requests for speaking engagements! I'd look like an ass. Well, I think you wouldn't. But I can understand you fully - I would HATE to make a speech in front of an audience! I would not be able to even spell words like "mama" and "papa", I'm afraid... ...it's interesting to me that ALL my German friends have traces of English accents amongst their German accentswhen speaking English. Obviously, their roots to the language have UK rather than US origins. Yes, that is true - our school English definitely goes with the country the language originates from. To be honest, many Germans think that Americans speak a kind of "bubble gum English". Which is not true, as I noticed, when we spoke with each other via TeamSpeak! Still, and sadly, most of my European/Scandinavian friends have a better command of written English than many youngsters I know.Olham and Hasse, for instance. Their English puts some of my niece's and nephew's to shame. To shame. Thank you, Jim! I wish you could have told my English teacher, Miss - ah, I forgot - she would have been wondering! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JFM 18 Posted November 9, 2015 What do you mean by bubblegum English? I don't speak that way? You were probably just impressed with my outstanding German: HORRIDO!!! ZUM HENKER!!! ER GEHT RUNTER!!! PAUKE PAUKE!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Typhoon 5 Posted November 9, 2015 It's funny the way locals pronounce place names. We had a hydro plant on the Ottawa River Called Des Joachims, oddly enough the locals( mostly French Canadians) pronounced it Da Swisha Down here in the southern part of the province we have a town called St Joachim And the locals also French Canadian for the most part pronounce it St JO-kim Go Figure Tony Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hauksbee 103 Posted November 9, 2015 To be honest, many Germans think that Americans speak a kind of "bubble gum English". I can't remember who said it, (perhaps George Bernard Shaw?) but referred to the English and Americans as "one people separated by a common language". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JimAttrill 24 Posted November 9, 2015 My wife left France when she was three, but her parents always spoke to their two girls in French. They also went after normal school to the Alliance Francaise to keep their French up to scratch. They both got BA's with French majors (which had more to do with literature of course). Last year she was employed by Rio Tinto to do some management training at mines in Quebec. She found most of the delegates could speak good French if required, though some were pretty hard to understand. The big problem she had was translating some of the management terms into French of any sort. And sorting out the difference between 'accountability' and 'responsibility' was not easy as the French don't draw a difference between the two. On return here she has had to change her pronunciation of Montreal back to the English version She liked the food mostly but didn't eat any poutine which looks pretty horrible to non-Canadians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poutine I insisted on calling it 'putain' which of course is something else Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted November 9, 2015 What do you mean by bubblegum English?I don't speak that way? You were probably just impressed with my outstanding German:HORRIDO!!! ZUM HENKER!!! ER GEHT RUNTER!!! PAUKE PAUKE!!! Mmuahahahahaaa!!! ...we have a town called St Joachim And the locals also French Canadian for the most part pronounce it St JO-kim "Joachim" (in this writing) is a German first name - no wonder they find it hard to pronounce. She liked the food mostly but didn't eat any poutine which looks pretty horrible to non-Canadians Looks like a meal that helped the old trappers to keep the Grizzlies away... ...the English and Americans as "one people separated by a common language". Mmuahahahahaaa!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeanba 1,915 Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) Watching a YouTube video about WWI flying, I was struck by the narrator's pronouncing 'Bertangles' just as you'd expect for a English word: "Ber-tangles'. But being a French word ( the pronunciation of which always confounds me) I had always assumed that it would be pronounced "Ber-tan-glay". Can someone set me straight?No : "Ber-tan-gl" (the "e" is mute) and "gl" is like "glamourous" not "gal" as the english usually spell at the end of a word As to the accent, absolutly no rule : there is a tendancy to depends on the origin of the person (that's why we call "Southern accent" ...) but this could change from village to village Edited November 9, 2015 by jeanba Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JFM 18 Posted November 9, 2015 "What the heck is that, 'Peckin'?" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
