A brief glance at the Third Wire webstore for SFP1/WoX/SF2 games

[+streakeagle 864]

Inspired by the off-topic derailment of the thread on flying the Arrow in SF2, I briefly clicked through the Third Wire online store for the PC SFP1/WoX/SF2 series. Something I noticed is that the prices have inflated.  The games used to be $29.99 each and I think the original SF2 and/or SFP1 was only $19.99. Now they are all $39.99 and the SF2 expansion packs are $29.99. To own all the games and expansion packs would be 6 x $40 + 2 x $30 = $300, plus all the DLC (27 x $6 = $162 for just the aircraft variants/skin packs) for a grand total of $462! If you buy DCS World products when their prices are lowest (somewhere between 50-75% off over the years), you could pretty much own the entire DCS library for the same or less.

I wasn't a beta tester for SFP1, but got invited in time for WoV. From that point on, I had always gotten a free copy of the game. But I always made the point of buying at least one store copy or later web store copy to pull my fair share of the weight of development for a game I spent most of my time playing for so many years. For me it was worth every penny. I am not so sure for people just getting into PC combat flight sims. They need and/or deserve a game that runs on modern hardware without having to tweek anything. But to date, there is no other combat flight sim that covers every thing from WW1 to the 1980s so well despite its dated terrain engine. Complexity aside, DCS doesn't have the maps or even the plane set to compete. FSX/P3D with TacPack is pretty cool for a civil air sim and realistic systems operation, but is but a shadow of what you can do in terms of missions and combat in dedicated combat flight sims. But SF2 is static. Whatever bugs remain won't ever be fixed. While a few modders are still at it and the Yankee Air Pirate Team is still scheming to make a few bucks off of modding for this sim, new mods are down to a crawl compared to its heyday. If I were 20 something and didn't have a lot of cash to burn, I don't know that I would buy even one SF2 title at $40, much less the entire collection... but my obsession with F-4s and nearly equal love for the century series and the MiGs they flew against would still probably push me to try at least one title... most likely SF2V so I could fly all the USAF and USN F-4 variants at their best and worst over the skies of North Vietnam.

As for the topic of the best game cover, the original Wings Over Vietnam cover wins hands down for me as it reminded me of the cover for Avalon Hill's air combat board game Flight Leader.

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by streakeagle

[+Gunrunner 313]

Yep, TK has lost the plot, to compensate the loss of revenue that the loss of sales volume created, he increased his prices.

Frankly, if I were him, I'd go next door ask Chris Roberts if he needed someone with an aero engineering degree and flight sim experience to join his team for atmospheric flight, then try to sell him the idea of a Strike Commander/Pacific Strike/Wings of Glory successor, or get sold on the idea of fan funding.

[Arrow 83]

My problem with Third Wire pricing and policy, is that it bucks the trends. Prices for older combat simulations typically decrease, yet Third Wire's have inflated. Even worse; the series is no longer supported, yet there's no source code release to fans that could improve upon it.  There is another exception with Lockheed Martin's Prepar3D which has the extremely steep price of $200 US (a vast increase over FSX pricing), but it's definitely more the exception than the norm and really in a different class as it's used professionally for training and certification. The Strike Fighter series prices look particularly dubious when compared to a few other combat sims that have seen significant enhancements.  Note: I can only quote prices from my 2 common retail sources in Canadian currency. Those prices are slightly short of a 1/4 less for US gamers - sorry, can't quote the difference between the UK pound and CDN dollar off the top of my head.  So that a comparison can be made between the prices of the other sims I'm listing and Third Wire's;  The Strike Fighters 1 series at $29.99 US each equates to $39.16 CDN, while the SF 2 series at $39.99 each is $52.24 CDN.  Here's an example of 3 combat flight simulations that have had significant modding activity.

Falcon 4 [release 1998]: GOG $12.89 (Falcon Collection, version 1-4), Steam $7.79
Source code released to Benchmark Sims (Team BMS):  64 bit recompile, addition of DirectX 11 support, complete terrain update, multiple bug squashing, online play improvements, addition of cockpits, support for other aircraft, support for fan-made terrains and campaigns

IL-2 Sturmovik Cliffs of Dover [release 2011]: Steam $28.99, GOG n/a
Source code released to Team Fusion;  64 bit recompile, addition of DirectX 11 support, 3D object enhancements, ground object improvements, multiple bug squashing, online play improvements, new campaigns, addition of a playable Bristol Beufighter, support for fan-made campaigns.

IL-2 Sturmovik 1946 [release 2006]: GOG $12.89, Steam $10.99
Significant overhaul now managed by the BAT (Battlefield-Airborne-Tactical) Team; enhancement of ground objects, shipping fleets, aircraft, addition of new terrains, enhancement of the Command & Control system

No doubt there's more combat sims that have seen lots of modding, but those are the ones I currently fly; maybe someone else can list other examples. Those are significantly lower prices and in the case of Falcon 4 and IL-2 ClOD (thanks to official fan development teams), a much more current gen sim with a significantly richer feature set. It's unarguable that the Strike Fighters series has some outstanding modders and for me personally that lessens the pain of the much steeper price. That doesn't change my impression though, that Third Wire seems to be way out there on another planet in terms of their pricing.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Arrow

[+gerwin 449]

You cannot expect a source code release. You can hope and wish for it but not expect it. It is not the norm.

AFAIK Falcon 4 source was leaked not released. And source code access for a single team is not the same as releasing it.

Third Wire Strike Fighters Fairy tale ended when people did not buy the product in sufficient numbers, several times in a row. Silly games with zombies or something sell a lot better ;) Besides that we can only guess about what is going on at Third Wire currently. Should I explain myself to everyone when I go do some other job or nothing at all? Or is the question, does he owe the remaining players anything? He does not owe me anything.

[Arrow 83]

Note that the 2 examples I gave of modders working with source code, do not constitute public releases of the source code. In both cases owners of the IP have released the code exclusively to a specific team of volunteers.  In both cases, you must buy product in order to use that modded code. In the case of Falcon BMS, you must own or purchase the original Falcon 4 as the modded game queries for it whenever it launches. In the case of IL-2 Sturmovik Cliffs of Dover, the modded game which includes Team Fusions work up too patch 4.5,  is now titled IL-2 Sturmovik Cliffs of Dover Blitz and is sold as a full retail product with 1C Software (publisher) reaping the profits. Soon there will be another retail game in the series set in North Africa that will include Team Fusion work up to patch 5.0.

Those teams of volunteers never own the source code outright either, but are granted a license to develop it. That certainly seems like a win-win situation to me, in that volunteers do the programming, art and other work for free, while the original publisher of the IP makes money on sales they probably wouldn't have made without the enhancements. I wouldn't expect TK to do a public release of the source code the way Interplay/Volition did with the FreeSpace 2 code.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Arrow

[+daddyairplanes 8,643]

53 minutes ago, gerwin said:

does he owe the remaining players anything? He does not owe me anything.

just access to previous purchases, or an announcement that he's shutting it down. the hiccups with the store and download section lately are troubling....

 

[+gerwin 449]

For recent purchases download access would be pretty much mandatory I agree. I don't know if one can expect a lifetime service though. I have local copies.

As for the announcing of something, I don't know, maybe.

[+daddyairplanes 8,643]

well, think of it like if Erik shut this site down. he isnt under any obligation to make an announcement (especially given how many use it for free) but Erik would, giving the reasons if it were in his power to do so.

but especially for the recent purchase folks an announcement, even to the tune of you got three days get your stuff or lose it, should be made. honestly, how many of us have thought "he's gone and yanked it finally" when the store and download sections went down the last couple of times. not expecting forever service, just an announcement to more than his dining room wall when it is over.

as to local copy, you'd better. thats just good backing up practice

[+gerwin 449]

Understood, but the website anology is not entirely comparable IMO.

The suggestion that the downloads were down for good was obviously speculation, the downloads are there again.

I am not argueing for or against something, but can imagine situations were a business does best by saying nothing, At least for business sake.

Edited August 7, 2018 by gerwin