F100 Flying Brick syndrome and how to fix it

[Dark_Knight_667th 0]

A while back I posted on the bug reporting area of this site a message about Leading Edge Flaps, or Slats, better known as LEF's and the IRL effect on lift they produce..LEF's deploy on most aircraft at low speeds or hard turns to increase the amount of lift the wing is producing to prevent a stall..as we all know..this is the area that the F100 out of the box has..at low speeds or hard turns..it handles like a dog..won't turn wont do jack unless you deploy the flaps..which got me thinking that in the sim the LEF effects were modelled backwards..Last night I got so disgusted at the F100 I was almost ready to give up on SF until the patch..then I though why wait..lets see what the .dat file says..

 

So using skypats utility I extracted EVERY file from the Objects.cab and took an indepth look at the F100 FM data..this is what I found..in all respects for the leading edge slats of which there are four in the dat file..the data for the LEF's in the retracted position was indicative of HIGHER lift than when deployed..the values were as follows: Deployed: 128.6 and Retracted 149.2..so as a test I switched the values and saved the dat file..didn't change the values at all..just reveresed em..result in campaign..I can now turn with a Mig 17 at any speed over 220 knots..whether its a high G turn, or a low G turn, at same or higher speeds, since the SuperSabre should outclass the Mig 17..this would appear to be a correct and temporary fix..until further FM tweaking by TK and crew...and my wing AI can now maneuver enough to almost keep from getting killed...This is how the Dat file should read for this area after the fix..

 

[LeftSlat]

SystemType=HIGHLIFT_DEVICE

CLiftdc=-0.0481

DeltaStallAlpha=6.00

AreaRatio=1.02

DeploymentMethod=AUTOMATIC_AERODYNAMIC_LOAD

Setting[1].Angle=30.0

Setting[1].DeployValue=149.2

Setting[1].RetractValue=128.6

MaxDeflection=30.0

MinDeflection=0.0

ControlRate=2.0

AnimationID=3

 

[RightSlat]

SystemType=HIGHLIFT_DEVICE

CLiftdc=-0.0481

DeltaStallAlpha=6.00

AreaRatio=1.02

DeploymentMethod=AUTOMATIC_AERODYNAMIC_LOAD

Setting[1].Angle=30.0

Setting[1].DeployValue=149.2

Setting[1].RetractValue=128.6

MaxDeflection=30.0

MinDeflection=0.0

ControlRate=2.0

AnimationID=3

 

[LeftOuterSlat]

SystemType=HIGHLIFT_DEVICE

CLiftdc=-0.0481

DeltaStallAlpha=6.00

AreaRatio=1.02

DeploymentMethod=AUTOMATIC_AERODYNAMIC_LOAD

Setting[1].Angle=30.0

Setting[1].DeployValue=149.2

Setting[1].RetractValue=128.6

MaxDeflection=30.0

MinDeflection=0.0

ControlRate=2.0

AnimationID=3

 

[RightOuterSlat]

SystemType=HIGHLIFT_DEVICE

CLiftdc=-0.0481

DeltaStallAlpha=6.00

AreaRatio=1.02

DeploymentMethod=AUTOMATIC_AERODYNAMIC_LOAD

Setting[1].Angle=30.0

Setting[1].DeployValue=149.2

Setting[1].RetractValue=128.6

MaxDeflection=30.0

MinDeflection=0.0

ControlRate=2.0

AnimationID=3

 

 

The result..the F100 is now a dream to fly..easier to control less downward pressure needed on the stick at high speed flight to maintain level flight..climbs better, and turns WAY better..easy to do with the extract utility and all those frustrations trying to chase down those mig 17s are a thing of the past. The plane behaves like any other plane in any other sim in all flight parameters..including stall..and I purposely stalled it to test it..right down to a flat spin..recovery is still tricky..but it is a bit easier as well. If you try it..enjoy it.

 

DK

[Dark_Knight_667th 0]

In a little further probing I found a similar thing with the F4b, C, and D model's..however the E model has it correct..will check on the migs next

 

Added Later: Upon further checking..none of the Migs or the SU7 appear to have LEF's modelled..not sure but didn't the Mig 19 and up have LEF's?

 

DK

[Dark_Knight_667th 0]

Just learned the hard way..let one of those slippery bastards get behind you and you still have problems though..LOL..

 

Here's some more benefits of this..your AI wings are now more successful in their attacks as well..even though I just shot down..my AI wing had two kills..us two vs six mig 19s..They also don't fall behind near as bad at take off nor when they do those break away turns when coming into formation..they still don't follow the commands of break, rtb or ground attack though..LOL but all in all..its appearing like this little tweak to the F 100 is a keeper..still looking for feed back from you guys on it..has anyone else tried it yet?

 

DK

[Dark_Knight_667th 0]

While checking this out in the A4 FM data I noticed something else..Fuselage damage value shows destroyed..but wing, stab etc say disabled for the damage values..could this be why when you blow the wing off an enemy aircraft it hits the ground but doesn't explode?

 

I'm curious if these were changed for the wings if this would result in the aircraft blowing up when it hits the ground..

 

DK

[JD_116th 0]

DK are the FMs also changed for online play ? I have noticed some doing some fancy moves online.

[Dark_Knight_667th 0]

As I just did this this morning I haven't tested it..but Armour Dave as well as a few others now have the zip its also posted here..further testing will be required to find the full extent of what these changes do overall..since strikefighters looks at files outside of the cab folder first, if any, I suspect that it would affect multiplayer..by creating the zip file ans getting it up for download I am hoping that until the patch, the updated ones being available to the public means that they will be used by the public as a whole..not construed as a cheat..these changes are in no way meant to be a cheat against the stock FM's..just a correction of the stock data by swapping of the two entries only..these are the only changes made..I pan to test this out at length with other members of the 667th to see what we find..I would imagine that the patch, since TK has said the FM data will be tweaked will probably include this fix..if not even more accurate data..I just used what was provided.

 

Here is a link to the zip: http://theblackknights.50megs.com/sf/dl/f100fix.htm

 

Here is the link for the discussion..same topic over at simHQ (no offense Jeff) http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bb...TML/002551.html

 

I suspect that armourdave will probably host it on skunkwerks as well.

 

I've also posted this on the SimHQ forums for people to check into at test out. I can't stress enough that the editable FM data should not be used to cheat..it should however be used to bring about a higher level of realism where neccessary which is my reasoning behind this modification to the stock files. It is my wish that either third party or by thirdwire themselves that a way for online players to check the validity of the open files be included. What is accepted by the public as norm should be the check..the balance being able to restrict entry into online games to those whose files match the accepted norm. Cheating in any game is an open admission of lack of skill. To master a flight sim, such as SF or as extreme as F4 should be skill, not cheats

 

 

DK

[SDirickson 0]

Can't wait for the patch to be released. I've been really disappointed with the F-100 so far. I'll be checking out this fix first though :).

 

BTW, thats one advantage with having no trim. You don't get any asses assigning it to a slider for MP.

[vercingetorix 0]

DK,

my hat is off, very nice work sir <S!>

I think that you are on the right path on this one.

I have most of the non-classfd specs on may of these AC

let me know if you need any data that I may have.

 

 

 

-Vercingetorix

[Dark_Knight_667th 0]

Well vercing..

 

After the patch that info will be greatly appreciated..what will be needed though is how the values in the Dat files are derived from performance data..is it done by percentage increase of wing area etc..this "fix" only swaps the origional data put in by TK and crew to fix a shortcoming with the LEF's..If you've tried the fix..you will notice how differently these fixed files make the F100 handle in a turning dogfight..it takes the dog out of the word and makes it a knive fight instead..Having put a good three weeks worth of stick time into SF campaign so far..and beating it once in the F100 I noticed the difference right off created by this tweak..the effect was a real eye opener to say the least..nothing against TK and crew..they do their best with what they have..starting a company from the ground up and doing a first release like this can stretch resources to newspaper thin and even thinner extremes..they did good work..I am thinking what I fixed may have just been a mis-entry on the part of the Flight Model data guys..not a big error..but it makes a big difference in the Sabre..Looking at the other values there isn't as much of a seperation between deployed or retracted..so other aircraft may not show as pronounced of an effect

 

My next days off from work I intend with some knowing participants to try and see if this also affects the online FM of the F100..I'll be in Hyperlobby Monday Evening CST USA for testing..(hopefully) anyone wanting to help out and volunteers to put a stock F100 against mine with these files to see what, if any, differences are in guns only please let me know so I know who to look for..there have been many questions raised if these would affect the online FM..there is only one way to find out..try it online..

 

DK

[JD_116th 0]

Well now DK who better then old friends from the old days of jcn ?

But how about your F-100's against some mig's ? Ill look for you on Monday, should be fun.

[Dark_Knight_667th 0]

Heh..2v2 could probably be easily arranged..coop style intercept should do the trick..

 

DK

[Dark_Knight_667th 0]

Just fyi for the gang here..quick multiplayer test with JD and a few others..all knowing about the tweaked FM..all commented on the better turns..but in the right hands..their migs still tore us up..better climb etc of the mig..but..any improvement is an improvement

 

DK

[JD_116th 0]

Well as you know DK I like to have a good flight, it was fun. The adjustment to the F-100 FM was noticeable. :shock: But in the wrong hands may not be a good thing. :roll: As long as it is used right to make the sim better it makes for a better flight. 8) That = fun and thats why we do this. :thumbup: P.S. If using a mod one should let that be known

so others dont think that you are cheating and not fly with you.

[Dark_Knight_667th 0]

This was posted by Andy Bush over at SimHQ after he tested the LEF tweak:

 

Regards the F-100 tweak...

It seems to me to make the jet a little more responsive at speeds below 300KIAS.

 

My test was to fly a loop, starting at 250KIAS.

 

The tweaked FM seemed to have more of a positive pitch feel as the jet went "over the top". Less tendency to wallow about.

 

The uncommanded rolling tendency is still there and is just as severe as in the unmodded version. IMO, this rolling tendency just about destroys the F-100 FM when maneuvering at high AOA.

 

The slats are still functioning with airspeed and not AOA. Probably not a big deal. The major negative effect of this would be in an extension from low speed. If the slats remained out until a certain speed is attained (as they do now) rather than coming up as soon as the jet is unloaded, then there may be a drag factor to consider that may slow down the acceleration.

 

Overall, the tweak seems to have a positive effect on jet handling without being too "arcadish".

 

As for now, I say go with it. Nice job.

 

 

 

DK

[SDirickson 0]

Well, I learned something valuable tonight. Do not go against a MiG-19 with a Super Sabre. I couldn't, for the life of me, get behind the MiG, or even in a favorable position for a missile shot. The F-100 just wouldn't keep it's energy, and the MiG-19 had too much energy.

 

This completely kills any attempt at dogfighting with the F-100, at least until the patch. I consider myself a pretty competant sim driver, so I do not think it is too much pilot error on my part. This is just absurd.

[Dagger 21]

DK,What you've done is very good and definatly step in the right direction! My hats off to you...

As for the peolpe worring about the MP part..sooner or later somebody would have figure this out and they would have change the same file you did,not to improve the game but for their own gains.You have worked to make the FMs alot closer to the real deal,so don't let anybody tell ya different.It is a big improvement and it is appriciated.

I wish I could find an A-4,or F-100 driver to talk to them and see what they think...would help alot.Mig drivers might be a bit difficult to find in Virginia these days. :D

I'll keep trying anything you post to help.Thanks for all the hard work again.Keep it up.

 

Dagger

[SDirickson 0]

I went to the Wings OVer Houston Airshow back in October. They had some MiG-21's on display from the Colliers Foundation, I think? Anyway, it shouldn't be too hard to find some civilian owners of a MiG-21, although they may not know too much about dogfighting with it :).

[Dark_Knight_667th 0]

Guys..

 

I'm well into bringing all the fighter FM's pretty close to the real deal. I'm now just waiting for the tool(s) from TK for setting the variables. SDirickson..I have no problem nailing a MiG 19 with the tweaked F100, but there is a trick to it.

 

DK

[SDirickson 0]

Oh, I can take a MiG-19 in a head on pass. The problem is getting on the MiG's tail, and staying there, especially at high altitudes. If the 19 driver decieds to start a climbing turn, there is no way in the world you can catch up with the F-100. Unfortunately, that seems to be the only thing the MiG-19 pilots want to do.

 

Is the F-100 really supposed to bleed speed as bad as it does? I can understand that it is a proportianatly heavy airframe when compared the thurst of it's engine, so accelerating back up after a turn may take a little bit. Its seems kind of axcessive, though.

[Dark_Knight_667th 0]

It is..however, once tk releases the tool for the FM's it will be a pretty simple fix..I just need the data to plug in..I've got pretty good data on the migs..but at the moment I'm flying blind by trial and error Russky over at simhq provided the data on the Migs straight from the Mikoyan design bureau. I've got a set of beta FM's with that data in it..but they are nowhere near ready for public release. The Migs still need the lift ratios tweaked for the wings which I can't do without the tool. The Mig 17, with proper thrust is still a threat..but with the available tactics a beatable threat and vs a phantom is practically not a threat..Pop two of em before you get wvr and the other two in the flight generally turn tail and run..Mig 19s pose more of a threat to a phantom than the 17's and the Mig 21s are a serious threat, or will be once their wing data is properly put in, this data as far as I am able to discern isn't off by much..but that little bit is making all the difference in how the AI fly. Same goes for the AI in the flyables. Just putting in proper stall speeds has made the AI fly much differently, The migs won't try to climb high unless they are high to begin with due to stall limitations set in the data.inis..the Mig 17s now try the turning dogfight instead of an energy fight, MIg 19 tries both, Mig 21 I haven't come up against yet..and I have found even more data on it and the phantom finally but I am still stalled till the tools are released.

 

Now, I would like a set of volunteers no more than 8 or so for the dirty job of working on FM's. As a community with the potential for large multiplayer activity we need a standardization of flight models, both for new aircraft being added as well as the "cd stockers' The eight or so that volunteer, plus myself I would like to be able to offer realistic flight models for all added aircraft, allowing the modellers to concentrate on the model, and us on the FM's, this would bring about faster addons of aircraft for the enjoyment of the whole community, as well as a standardization in multiplayer.

 

Those that wish to volunteer, please contact me via icq at icq# 82925687 or by email at cptdarkknight@cox.net

[Dark_Knight_667th 0]

I would like to reiterate my request for people to help out with the Flight Model team..We've got a ton of aircraft coming up that have been requested to us to do Flight models once tools are released or made. We've gotten a start on some of the major data collection as far as flight test data for the real aircraft..but with all the aircraft being modelled and without more help we are going to be overrun in a very short time. Even if you don't think you have anything to contribute..if you can run Internet explorer and use a websearch..then come help..the rest can be taught as we go.

 

DK

[Dagger 21]

DK I'll be in touch with you.

[Dark_Knight_667th 0]

Just an update:

 

Due to TK's response that the Flight Model tool was low priority at this time, two of the FM team have begun work on our own to aid us in the creation of flight models..As work progresses on it I will keep you all updated.

 

DK