Its time for feedback guys..........

[+Tailspin 3]

Good post P10ppy. But I think we need more specific input. What exactly is your mild disagreement? What are your ideas regarding drag and how it should affect the FM? I know for instance some of the planes don't seem to bleed much energy (speed) in sustained turns...in fact they tend to acclelerate. Its difficult to coordinate turns sometimes because of the lack of rudder response.

 

I know most of you have probable read this article but it provides some insight into flying the real thing. Torque effects, heavy roll response, light very responsive rudder...and this is the Bebe a "very manoueverable" plane of the period according to pilot reports.

 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa38...002/ai_n8887508

 

IMO the FMs in FE can be done with a reasonable amount of historic accuracy. But, once again, we are confronted with the damn AI.

[+peter01 2]

Peter...I fly the Morane L all the time and am quite successful against the Eindeckers. The main problem with the AI is still lack of gunnery skills. They can't shoot and I have discovered their "achilles heel". There is a certain spot to aim at where you will get a major fire and crash almost every time.

 

thats interesting......obviously have to avoid you if we ever fly online

 

had thought the e1 and all eindeckers ai were very tough, even started watering down the ai in other planes to make them less capable.

 

this is in hard fm, and using the latest version 3.0 fm for the "L", in 1:1 dogfight?

 

i agree re the ai gunnery skills and have noticed somehow the less you move around the less likely they are to hit you! however for some reason the posted version of the E1 has GunBoresightAngle=0.4 and my version has GunBoresightAngle=3.0, and it makes a difference, for all eindeckers.

Edited June 8, 2007 by peter01

[+p10ppy 2]

My mild disagreement

The DH2 would appear to be a much better plane then the E.III both aerodynamically and control wise

Relatively:

The E.III with its live tail surfaces and Warping should be a nervy unstable nightmare,

Underpowered, higher stall speed, very slow roller and quite un-manoeuvrable

It's basically a pre war design (boom and zoom sort of)

 

The DH2 would most likely be tail heavy (pusher) and I'm not sure that it would have much precession with the engine so close to its roll centre

Big control surfaces with actual non-moving tail surfaces would seem to make it a much more controllable/ manoeuvrable aircraft, with a better climb (lower drag and wing loading)

Apparently with a nasty stall/spin tho (probably a general pusher trait)

 

I note that the two main E. aces (Immelman and Boelcke) show no victories over DH-2s and that the great majority of their "kills" are 2 seaters (old 2 seaters)

 

On the AI: the stock Spad does have a nasty stall and the AI copes (relaxed flightmodel) The main AI problems imho are basic stupidity (wrong behaviour at the wrong time) and a very poor aim/ firing at to long a range

Coupled with a tendency to spend a lot of time in their "avoiding the ground" behaviour, exasperated by the rapid altitude loss when manoeuvring with some FMs, (probably unfortunately accurate)

 

I used CD0 mainly as an example, but it is a fundamental coefficient that's fairly easy to estimate

And having it wildly wrong can only compound with other "mistakes" in the FM until none of the parameters bare much resemblance to RL

Undoubtedly it has a large effect on energy conservation tho (something the MoS-N FM does way to well )

 

Rudder response: I'm not sure about a lack of rudder authority (generalising here)

I agree that many FMs don't have much, when what they should have (imho) is a great lack of yaw/sideslip stability

Can someone point me to some sources on a lack of rudder response in these craft?

 

 

Source on E.III vs DH-2 (again I link to it )

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-468/ch2-2.htm

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-468/app-a.htm

 

and following up from Tailspins link, a "nice" description of fly the camel (shudder)

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa38...808/ai_n8823870

(the stuff about looping and the lack there of is interesting)

 

finally a comparison of CD0 in released FMs extracted from the above spreadsheet (sorry its long )

[Southside Bucky 1]

Hi guys.

 

There's a couple of relevant ongoing discussions over at the Aerodrome forum which you may find interesting. The first is about engine torque/precession, The second relates to the performance of the Fokker E.III.

 

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30898

 

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30776

 

Regards.

 

Bucky.

[+Tailspin 3]

Thanks for the details P10ppy. Certainly more food for thought. I'm in agreement with you about the Eindeckers. It was much more about the gun platform than its abilities as a fighter A/C, IMHO. It was effective against its contemporaries but was outclassed by the next generation of A/C. Interesting comment about the stock SPAD XIII and the AI. Not sure why the 3rd party AI has such difficulty? Perhaps new stuff from TK will help with the AI routines for 3rd party A/C too. Anyway, for the time being I'm enjoying Peter's FMs (and your Bullet too, BTW)...especially for the MS, Pfalz, Eindecker engagements. The balance is good and the dogfights can be challenging.

 

Peter...let me revise my comments re the EI vs. MS L. It is difficult to get and stay behind the EI and with V3.0 my kills/mission have gone down but they still rarely shoot me down. I think with a human pilot in the Eindecker the MS L pilot had better be very good at deflection shooting to have a chance.

[+peter01 2]

thanks Bucky for links, hadn't seen them, and like reading these nitty gritty discussions that at times don't seem to get anywhere, but its the journey, not the destination. So I'll increase the E3 speed to 92.5 mph.....just kidding.

 

glad you posted tailspin, was just about to sign up again on the il2 server to polish up flying skills, worried had lost it (probably have anyway)

 

guess my thinking on dh2 is to go with second less capable model - still superior to current e3! - cos of what I mentioned of the earlier versions somewhat unrealistic nimbleness and maybe redo Es later to make less capable. As you said Tailspin, the war was characterised by leaps and bounds in airplane performance/improvements, and if the dh2 is too good, may have no place to jump eventually (or get a Snipe disguised as a Pup)

 

but all FMs are an evolving affair, hard to get exactly right in first or even upteenth iteration... and though not too concerned about the stall aspect TK is working on with addon (tho he has stated it will affect current FMs), he has talked about the rotary engine model and blipping - the latter maybe cosmetic in the sense most probably don't use throttle, but may also impy engine starts too, both great. Sooo, also maybe gyro effects? this would be a really big step in feel and performance, maybe safe too for ai as it doesn't have to have it (or better have an ai parameter(s) that controls it), and encourage more people to play in Hard FM. If so, FMs should be redone.

 

might be expecting too much - but I do have faith in TK continuing to improve the game - just hope sales do well to encourage further goodies.

Edited June 9, 2007 by peter01

[+peter01 2]

Hi P10ppy, it is an interesting tool you have developed - well done.

 

Wondered whether or even how(!) to comment but obviouslyyou have a great interest in FMs (hope it doesn't distract you too much from modelling tho ) and seriously, I'd say it be great if you and others started doing FMs, they'd certainly get better too.

 

With the Loftin stuff, it is fairly fundamental to flight dynamics, and TK does use elements of it in his FMs - which BTW is/can be very sophisticated. The drag coefficient you pointed out is one. Basically given the physical and other known characteristics, this value is actually worked out for you using Loftin or similar formula - and the drag at 0 AoA is whatever it is whatever you do if the basics are right.

 

Why it may seem different is a different story though - drag at 0 AoA arises from other factors in the model and is varied according to other parameters, its not one number; the effeciency constants are not constants and are different to the values in the spreadsheet i presume you used for the Loftin derived numbers quoted, and maybe (?) finally, the game engine (being a jet sim), could give more or less weighting to some of these forces within FMs to make them work effectively as a WW1 sim.

 

Why do people do them differently? Probably mainly just feel. But that can be sliced and diced many different ways, far more fundamental ways then the drag.

 

With some values - 17m wingspans - it changes all this of course, but I think like me (i learnt thru exploring, continue to do this too), others explore to see if FMs could be done differently/better maybe, because in the end its a Jet game engine that it drives a Jet Flight Model. i'd encourage these alternative approaches - and i do like some of the results.

 

TK could have done FMs using formula's - plug in the drag coeffecient, induced drag, max lift etc etc theres probably a dozen or so numbers and get all sorts of flyable things coming out, but the planes probably would be very bland. Who knows, maybe some games do this?

Edited June 9, 2007 by peter01

[+peter01 2]

Hi guys - just an update on how I am going....and some attachments.

 

Some good news, some bad news - just delays really.

 

Bad first. Can't do much the next week or two, hence progress is slower, and was distracted too - see below. The Fe2B is incomplete, have to still get the AI a bit better behaved - hate seeing any AI stall!

 

Good news.....

 

Thanks for feedback, helped considerably (thanks Bucky about missing mid wings - wouldn't have seen that), feel like I'm working less in the dark & balancing a large set of planes is hard... and comments have definitely improved the FMs.

 

I'd like to "release" the Dh2 FM with the Fe2B so won't upload till then, but its done (won't be any more changes) and to give those keen on getting this now (if any!) rather than in two weeks, I've attached the FM again.

 

This Dh2 FM is excellent to me taking everything into consideration (sorry sounds terrible, but for me it is). Best in Hard, you will know what I mean, but works perfectly in Normal too. Feels pretty well how it should to me at least - jaunty, nimble, nice tensions I think - loads of fun to fly. AI is well behaved. AI is very capable and aggresive (tho bad shot, maybe luckily). Capability wise about right - probably won't redo Eindeckers now in a rush if at all. I did not give it difficult stalls/spins, most people have been playing Normal, and all other planes have easy stall characteristics presently.

 

Spent time on the Fokker Biplanes, again - B2, D2, D3, D3L. Pleased to say finally nailed them....i know, its version 8 or so!! Mainly "feel" (real but nice, not mushy, boring) and a bit better AI and as well as different type of AI behavior. I'll make these new versions available for download when I upload the Dh2/Fe2B - fit well with these especially, reason I redid these now.

 

Also got diverted with a new FM for the Pup - this is very close to complete, maybe need to look at ai behavior more, and of course if people have feedback, that would be very much appreciated. Best in Hard FM again, very nice to fly, capable, good ai, and sorta match with Halb and Alb D1 - tho somewhat better, and better than N17 too.

 

The Tripe will be next - mmmm, 3 wings is a challenge!!!

 

Have fun.

 

Edit: When I say nice to fly, what I actually mean is not boring....its hard to explain. It does not relate to realism, thats largely the game engine not the FM, except for stalls.

 

DH2_data.txt

 

Pup_DATA.txt

 

Thanks again to ATeam for allowing me to do alternative FMs. If there are any issues with these let me know, not the ATeam.

Edited June 14, 2007 by peter01

[+Tailspin 3]

I'll bump this one in case anyone missed the new FMs. Sorry, Pete. I haven't had much time lately to try them out. Soon as I get a chance I'll post.