ACM suggestion needed

[Mur 0]

Hu guys.

First of all, I think the idea of such a forum is great.

Second, my question -trying to be as more concrete as possible: sometimes in a dogfight, 1vs1,

I have the bandit on my tail. In your opinion, what is the best manouvring I should make in order

to put myself on the tail of the bandit?

I can try to turn on the left or on the right, but these turns cause a decreasing of my speed.

Or, I increase my altitude and my speed, but I lose a lot of fuel.

I have tried an inverted S, decreasing my altitude but earning kinetic energy; often this is not useful, since

the bandit is faster than me and is able to follow me.

What do you usually do in this situation?

Greetings,

Mur.

[FastCargo 412]

Mur,

 

The answer is...and I hate to say this, but 'it depends'.

 

There are a ton of variables involved with every dogfight...and a change in any one of those variables can drastically change what you should do.

 

Let's assume worst case, he's in prime weapons employment zone, his overtake is controlled, he's ready to shoot, and you're in a double-disadvantage aircraft (high wing loading and low T/W ratio compared to your attacker).

 

Okay, first point: You Are In Trouble. Let me say that again - YOU ARE IN TROUBLE! G-limits, flap limits, speed limits are no longer relevant...your only job at this point is to survive with all your body parts and hopefully most of your aircraft.

 

JINK! Using your rudder and stick to stagger around the sky like a drunken idiot. Unload, go negative, slam the rudder back and forth. Give it a second or two for each input...just enough to change your vector. It takes time for the computers to compensate for the change in velocity vectors, and by the time the computers in the attacking aircraft compute your new path, you can jink in another direction. However, this won't work for more than a few seconds as the attacker realizes you aren't really changing your flightpath.

 

Then you can start doing something called an orthogonal pull. Basically, unload, rotate your lift vector 90 degrees to his wingline, and then pull hard. As soon as he rotates his wings to follow you and tries to commit his nose, unload, rotate another 90 degrees (either direction) and pull again...you will probably have to head down to keep your energy up. Continue to do this while the situation still exists. Hopefully, while doing this, he ends up not controlling his closure and either has to pull away to gain spacing, or shoots out in front.

 

Things to note:

 

Stay at or near corner speed. Putting out boards and ripping to idle MIGHT save you from him...or will leave you a slow sitting duck. Also, being at or near corner gives you maximum nose track (building angles) with minimum turn radius (increasing closure and the possibility of overshoot).

 

Watch your altitude. There is only a limited amount of sky available.

 

Watch him! You need to see what his nose is doing to figure out how to counter him. Be ready on expendables if he fires a missile.

 

FastCargo

 

PS More to come on this subject...just need some time to put something a little more informative.

[FastCargo 412]

Okay, some further notes.

 

Basically, what you're trying to do in this situation is setting yourself up in a classic or rolling scissors, more than likely a rolling. The idea is keeping your lift vector on your opponent, using rudder and roll as necessary to cause him to overshoot. You use 3 dimensions to minimize your travel distance, while lengthing his.

 

If you head downward, you now are in a defensive spiral. The advantage here is that you can use gravity to keep your speed up (without getting fast!), to maximize your pull toward your opponent. Hopefully, he won't realize he's accelerating and will end up overshooting in front of you.

 

The disadvantage is that you can only do this for so long...

 

FastCargo

[FOTF 0]

It all depends on what you are flying....you can't just say "Do this" and apply it to every aircraft you fly. You have to know the capabilities of the bird you are in.

 

If I am in a F-15, or something with some real rocket engines, I will light the burners and head straight up towards the sun. When I start to lose airspeed, I cut throttles, hit the break and pull up on the stick. The bandit loses me in the sun and by the time I get pointed down, I usually have enough time to get some rounds from the old cannon on him.....or if it is a good day, the bandit will break off the verticle pursuit and level out. Then when I come over the top....bang....dead boogie......if you are in something slower....dive for the dirt and make your pursuer do the work....nine times out of ten you can get him while he is searching for you.....you will have a nice open shot while your bandit is occupied trying to pick you up

[Mur 0]

Thanks a lot, both to paul and to cargo.

Of course I know that my question is too wide, and there is not

a unique answer. But in any case I have learned some tecnique I can use.

More specifically, I usually (almost always) use the F14A (or D) for dogfighting,

and my favourite opponents are MiG 17 and MiG 21, even if MiG 25 and 29

are good guys too.

In my opinion, it would be great if some tutorial material about ACM would

appear in this section of the forum.

Best regards,

Mur

Edited July 30, 2007 by Mur

[FastCargo 412]

Example of surviving (and winning) a double disadvantage fight:

 

While in my 1993 WOE campaign in a F-8FN (French Navy), guess what I get jumped by -

 

 

 

I get lucky though...he blows a bunch of his airspeed attempting a rapid nose track convergence to the left. Meanwhile, as you saw in my shot above, I stay near corner speed and head downward to keep him near the top of my canopy.

 

What eventually happens is that his AOA is so high, and he's so intent on staying INSIDE my turn circle, vs getting ON my turn circle, that he can't gain airspeed, and his nose is stuck aft.

 

I realize he's new enough that I unload while keeping the left turn...letting him try to converge his nose, then do a 'rope a dope'.

 

I barrel roll (using rudder, aileron, and a whole LOT of pull) and suddenly generate a TON of angles on him to the right. Pretty desparate move...if he was smart, he would have simply quarterplaned upward, waited until I spent my energy, then gunned me from above.

 

Instead he attempts to continue his turn to the right, doing a quick gun shot (surprise!) and then sliding below me, with full elevator deflection (yeah, THAT close).

 

I continue to roll right in a full barrel roll to end up behind him, blowing all my energy...but...

 

 

 

 

 

Again, I'm now spent on energy...but I have a shot (and in this case, a kill). If this didn't get him...I was going to do a hard descending turn left and down...and RUN! Taking on a Su-27 in an F-8 is suicide if the Su-27 is a decent BFM guy.

 

Note the airspeed of Su-27 just before he dies. I'll put money that guy after his initial convergence pull on me, he never got above 250 knots in the rest of the fight. Why? Because he was stupid! He did the typical new guy trick of thinking I've got a hot fighter, I can just pull and pull and pull....

 

And I wasn't too smart either...I decided to fight a Su-27...what I should have done in the initial encounter was pull hard toward him to make as much of a head on pass as I could...then assuming he waited until after 3/9 line passage, decided to turn, I could have unloaded and blown through...give myself max time to escape.

 

This was fun though!

 

FastCargo

[+Fates 63]

It all depends on what you are flying....

 

Yes, some games have better AI then others.

 

The bandit loses me in the sun ....

 

Once again, works in real-life but some games have better AI then others.

[allentime 0]

I think you said a F-14D against a Su-27 nonvec. thrust. For get what every one saying . Its 8+ g's, 8+ g's, 8+g's! you will be on his six in a just a few turns. at least the in the real plane will. But start with flairs and chaff.

[FastCargo 412]

I wouldn't think so.

 

The Su-27 has a superior thrust to weight ratio at typical loadouts. More importantly though, it only has 2/3s of the wing loading an F-14 does, critical for sustained turn performance and can easily pull as many Gs as any modern fighter.

 

I'd be curious as to what Typhoid thinks.

 

FastCargo

[allentime 0]

Total lifting area of the F-14 is 1008 sq/ft. And with a "OWE" of 44000 lbs, 8200lbs fuel, 2 sparrows, 2 sidewinders = about 55 lbs per sq/ft. Advantage, Tomcat.

[FastCargo 412]

Total lifting area of the F-14 is 1008 sq/ft. And with a "OWE" of 44000 lbs, 8200lbs fuel, 2 sparrows, 2 sidewinders = about 55 lbs per sq/ft. Advantage, Tomcat.

 

Square footage of F-14 wings = 565 sq feet

 

Square footage of Su-27 wings = 667 sq feet

 

Both fuselages are 'lifting bodies', that's where you get 1008 square feet.

 

Lifting square footage of F-14 = 1008 sq feet (your numbers)

 

Lifting square footage of Su-27 = 1000 sq feet (conservative estimate based on the size of the LERXs)

 

Total combat weight of F-14 = 55440 lbs (your numbers)

 

Total combat weight of Su-27 = 50690 lbs

 

Weight over lifting footage of F-14 = 55 lb per sq foot

 

Weight over lifting footage of Su-27 = 51 lb per sq foot

 

Thrust to weight of F-14D = 55600 lbs thrust / 55440 lbs = 1.003 T/W

 

Thrust to weight of Su-27 = 55200 lbs thrust / 50690 lbs = 1.089 T/W

 

My numbers show the Su-27 having an advantage in both wing loading and thrust/weight. In a sustained rate fight, assuming combat loads, the F-14 is showing a disadvantage.

 

 

Typhoid, any thoughts?

 

FastCargo

[allentime 0]

Glad to see your doing your home work. but the Tomcat is a swing wing air craft with a mush larger flight envelope , su-27 fixed wing, Advantage Tomcat.

[FastCargo 412]

Swing wing aircraft have the disadvantage of increased weight (especially for the hinge points) and complexity. That's why you'll notice none of the 4+ and now 5th generation fighter aircraft have them.

 

Envelope expansion is good for low speed landing characteristics and high speed flight...but doesn't do anything for you when it comes to a rate fight. Rate fights are still subject to wing loading, G limits, and engine power.

 

I'm still not seeing anything here that says the Tomcat has the advantage. Everything I see says the F-14 would lose a pure turn circle contest against a Su-27.

 

FastCargo

[allentime 0]

1008 sq/ft from published Grumman material. Your's, just estimating.

Russia wanted a su. with a swing but lacked the technology to build one.

[FastCargo 412]

Russia certainly didn't lack the technology for swing wings.

 

Su-17, Su-24, MiG-23, MiG-27, Tu-22, Tu-160. Of these, only the Tu-160 is newer than the Su-27. In fact, the Su-17 predates the F-14.

 

Grummans lifting area number almost doubles the amount of the wing area. My estimate barely adds 50% for the Su-27. I stand by my estimate. I flew swing wings with lifting body fuselages...so I have a pretty good idea of what shapes work.

 

FastCargo

[allentime 0]

Then you would know the mig-23 turns no better then a F-4.

So far the su-27 kill rate is 1 to 1 against mig-29's.

[FastCargo 412]

Neither which has anything to do with this discussion.

 

FastCargo

[+Brain32 265]

Well when I'm in trouble in close up dogfight against a better turning plane I can not excape I usually go scissors on them, AI in WOE/WOV is pretty good at it which is great