Uber Eindekker's!

[Southside Bucky 1]

Hi again Peter.

 

This is not meant as criticism. Just thought it might be useful to you, to get the FM's as accurate as possible... :yes:

 

I've tested the DH2 to literal destruction, against both the Fokker E.I and E.III.

 

Flying the DH2, I've found the E.III to be virtually impossible to beat. The AI E.III out performs the DH2 in almost every way. In fact, I have more success dogfighting against the Albatros D.I and D.II, or Halberstadt D.III. I've had a smidgen more success against the E.I, but in terms of historical accuracy, it (the E.I) still Over performs almost as much as the E.III.

 

I think the main problem is their turning circle. At the moment, the Eindekker's seem to be able to out-turn almost any plane in the game (certainly any available in 1916), which, when considering they didn't even have ailerons is obviously not as it really was. If that turning circle could be extended then it might even things up a little.

 

Again, I want to stress, I'm pointing it out to try and help you improve the game.

 

All the best.

 

Bucky.

 

PS. I've included a DH2 Vs E.III, 1 vs 1 mission as a tester.

DH2_vs_FokkerEIII__1v1_.zip

Edited August 17, 2008 by Southside Bucky

[+Tailspin 3]

I agree Bucky. Does the AI ever stall? I think that may be part of the problem. You can't follow the Eindecker in the DH 2 because if you try and match maneuver for maneuver you will quickly lose airspeed and stall out. The player is limited by stall speed so if you fly your DH 2 right at the edge you have the EIII turning inside you all the time. I just flew 4 missions in a row and the only kill I got was a snap shot that got the EIII's fuel tank as he cut in front of me.

[Guest B. Bandy RFC]

Well, there is the matter of the Eindeckers having the one-piece rudder (rather than fin & rudder combo, see other thread on DR1 FMs), and thus likely would have been able to slip-turn, though they could not do so continuously...

[+peter01 2]

Thanks for post Bucky. Happy to discuss any shortcomings of the FMs or AI. Actually, its frustrating that there is so little specific comment. Its discouraging too.

 

Unfortunately the downside to this is not the criticism, its not I know in this case, but even it were, the difficulty is answering things easily or quickly. Its complex stuff, there are many compromises.

 

I changed the E3 FM in an update, and improved its rudder capability. It turns better and its a bit harder to beat probably (as compared to an earlier version) for that reason, as Bucky pointed out. I probably will redo it again because of its roll speed, its endless stuff, compromsing for example in this case between feel on the one hand (feels pretty good now) and performance (fast roll) on the other is one of many many compromises... it usually seems you can't achieve all simultaneously (theres a few more in addition to feel and performance). So thanks again for bringing it up, will look at the AI again then too.

 

As you say there isn't much difference in capability between the E1 and E3. I don't think there would have been. A bit faster, a bit better climb, a bit better altitude effectiveness, the potential to carry two guns, these don't make a whole lot of difference in the game, although these improvements probably did in the real war.

 

I'm glad you are trying out the Dh2, and 1:1s. The Dh2 is the pivotal plane in my testing for 1916 plane vs plane capability, against mainly the same EA you mentioned, the E3, AlbD2, Halb D2, as well as the Fokker D3. Actually, all the AI and FM of planes for the 1915-1916 period are based performance-wise around the Dh2. So I know it well.

 

In my testing I use the Very Hard Aircraftobject.ini with only Aces. The AI are tougher then maybe you are using? Anyway, my results are quite different to yours. The E3 is easily beaten by me in the Dh2 in two or three maneouvres (as it is by N11 too). My concern with the E3 AI currently is not its turn or capability as an AI, but its slipperiness if you like, once you are on its tail - that part was on my "To DO" list... very long too LOL. Its probably due to its rudder as well, so worth looking at that part again as well as for the reasons you raised too. BTW the converse too - the E3 is inferior if flown against a Dh2 AI etc.

 

Its very unlikely I can beat a HalbD3 and or an AlbD2 (Borts Albs, different FM to the one I did for TKs, not sure which you are using...FMs being redone too BTW, reason in this case more to do with feel then performance!). The Halb CAN outturn the Dh2, the Alb can't but just flies a bit above so the Dh2 is always flying at or just above stall speed, so is pretty ineffective and won't win. The tactics I use flying the Dh2 against the E3 (and to a lesser extent the Fokker D3), do not work at all against the HalbD3 or AlbD2.

 

So bit surprised that you and Tailspin can't shoot E3s down. Not sure why. It could be that the since the rudder is improved, that at lower difficulty settings the rudder is relatively more important eg E3 compared to Halb, AlbD3. Might look at that, but it shouldn't make that much difference.

 

Its certainly true that you just can't outturn the E3 AI. The reasons for that start from the obvious - nothing in life is/should be that simple and you shouldn't be a war hero with no skill needed at all - and go all the way thru an entire spectrum of reasons and end with the major difficulty that there is one or two areas that have been a weakness in the FMs from the day the game came out, and still are - how both AI and player planes pull out from diving vertical manoeuvres. Its an advantage for the player in some ways against some opponents (Dh2 vs E3), its an annoyance in the AI. I can't change it, but done the next best thing, and have used this to get the results I want anyway...eg, Dh2 vs AlbD2, as against E3.

 

Like I said, its all complex...and believe it or not this is the really brief version of the full explanation.

Edited August 18, 2008 by peter01

[Southside Bucky 1]

Hi Peter.

 

Thanks very much for the detailed reply.

 

You're right, I was using the standard Aircraftobject.ini, available in your last FM download. I've now "upgraded" to "Very Hard", but not had a great deal of time to do much testing. I'm off work next week, so hopefully, I'll be able to spend a bit of quality time on the game.

 

If you need a second opinion on any updates, I'd be happy to help.

 

Regards.

 

Bucky

[Southside Bucky 1]

Hi guys.

 

Been doing a bit of experimenting with those *ahem*...Fokkers.

 

After Tailspin's excellent observation that they never seem to stall, I decided to increase each of the over-performing Eindekker's stall speed in each plane's DATA ini file (Found at the top of the second column, under the heading 'Flight Control').

 

It makes a BIG difference! Here are the parameters I'm now using:

 

Fokker E.I, E.Ia & E.II (I'm using the Fokker E.II with the E.I DATA ini. Renamed E.II, obviously)

StallSpeed=25.75

 

Fokker E.III

StallSpeed=25.85

 

Fokker E.IV

StallSpeed=27.55

 

 

They'll still give you a very tough fight, but you should find that now that they stall at higher speeds, those AI Fokker pilots 'aint so cocky!

 

Regards.

 

Bucky.

 

PS.

Don't forget to make copies of those DATA ini's before editing 'em, in case you don't like the changes.