B.E.2c

[wonderwarthog 0]

I think this WWI simulator is just about as perfect as one could wish, but for one puzzling matter---why did you give the BE2c a fixed Vickers, which they never carried, and no flexible Lewis for the observer (ahead of the pilot), which they did have? I was really looking forward to working out tactics for dealing with the Eindekker given the actual limitations of the BE.

[shredward 12]

The BE2c was sometimes mounted with a Lewis gun for the pilot, fitted at an oblique angle to fire outside the arc of the airscrew, similar to the mounting we have for the Bristol Scout. But yes, normal armament was some version of a post mount, operated by the observer, who sat in the front seat.

Cheers,

shredward

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

this was a big annoyance for me at first.

 

but then I remembered that OFF animates the observer's position on nearly every other machine.

 

so now imagine this: the BE2 and all of its variants generally used numerous "candle-stick" mounts and the machine gun was moved (by the observer) from one mount to another! I'm sure that the animator/modeler(s) who worked on the BE2 figured out that this was either impossible (or not worth the trouble). it might have severely interfered with the player's ability to 'see' and fly the machine.

 

I can't remember if it was Cecil Lewis or Alan Duncan Grinnell-Milne who reported the story--but either one of those fellows used the BE2c with the observer firing forward (past the prop) to attack enemy machines and balloons. it wasn't the commonly used form of attack, but it's not without precedent.

 

then again, since CFS3 is the basis for the game engine--we can't reload guns either. which is kinda too bad.

 

just think about ANIMATING that observer moving that machine gun around--and it becomes fairly clear why they opted to make the BE2c the way that they did. some BE2 carried a pair of Lewis guns on either side with stick mounts, but I'm not sure that this would work either--because CFS3 is a WWII based game--it might have one fellow UNREALISTICALLY operating both machine guns at the same time! so, this might be the best arrangement. the only other thing I could think of, would be to have the gun posted on one side of the machine (which would leave a huge blind spot on the other half of the machine--

 

since OFF has apparently decided to move into the payware/add-on patch approach--this might be something to solicit them about: a complete BE2

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

whoops! lost my post...

 

but perhaps like the following

 

BE2b

have one machine gun mounted on the right side of the fuselage on a candle-stick mount

prominent feature would be wing-warping, as this machine did not have ailerons

 

BE2c

have one variant with machine gun mounted on right side of fuselage on a candle-stick mount

 

one variant with an off-set forward firing Lewis AND a candle-stick mount. one would be operated by the pilot, and the other by observer

 

have one variant with one (or two) Lewis guns fixed to fire up at a 45 degree angle through upper wing

(this was apparently a very common anti-zeppelin configuration)

(while we're on that, perhaps including the Rankin darts, which came in 'boxes' of 25-50 darts which were dropped either on zeppelins, balloons, or infantry positions) and, towards that end, maybe the night-fighter version could have a search-light mounted on it as well. some night-fighting variants were armed with up to 6 Le Prieur rockets (3 on each wing)

 

there is a version of the BE2c I've seen pictures of which featured a single Lewis gun on a Strange-mount which could be animated for OFF purposes, but it would have a greatly reduced field of fire compared to the improvised candle-stick mounts.

 

it's also worth noting that the BE2c was under-powered and generally could not take-off with a full load of ammunition for self-defense/escort duties and bombs. they might be able to carry 6 bombs and no machine gun, or a machine gun and 3 bombs. for escort duties, they generally carried no bombs and lots of ammunition drums. so that's something to consider.

 

 

 

BE2d

 

basically the same, but with update engines and a gravity tank. very seldom used on the Western Front, more as a trainer

 

 

 

BE2e

 

again, various engine improvements, change to the tail section, but one big difference is that this machine had dual-controls, so that the observer could take over the machine if the pilot were killed in action. it also served the benefit of making every macine equally combat-worthy or being useful as a training machine.

 

the BE12 is actually armed with a Vickers gun--so in this respect, the only accurate in-campaign representation of the machine is if you start a career with No.19 Squadron RFC--otherwise, this machine is anachronistic in all other forms.

 

there was also the BE12a and b versions-- the "a" had a 125 hp engine, while the "b' had a 200 hp version--they also seem to have abandoned the Vickers firing through the prop and elected to use a Lewis gun on the top wing.

 

but yeah... now that I've gone through all of this... I'd definitely pay for a BE2 add-on pack that gets all of the subtleties and differences of each major sub-division down correctly. it feels jarring to know that the current "BE2b" can out pace the Fokker Eindecker!

 

come to think of it, if they could bundle all of the E.I-IV and BE2b-e variants into one package I'd buy that in a heart-beat.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Waldemar Kurtz

[Bullethead 12]

I think one of the reasons the Quirk doesn't have an observer's gun is probably not so much an animation limit as a limit of the CFS3 engine. I get the distinct impression that the game engine requires a gun to be in 1 place on a plane at all times. It's either fixed in place there, or it can pivot over some arc of fire. Thus, I don't think there's no way to have the observer pick up his gun and move it to the other side of his cockpit even if OBD had wanted to animate it.

 

Another alternative would be to use some later model of the BE2, which still had the observer in front, but gave him a big scaffold thing with a gun on top. He could then stand up in his cockpit and fire back over the pilot's head. Of course, the pilot couldn't see anything if that happened :). So maybe the best solution would be to just have the last BE2 model with the observer in the rear, but then you've basically got an RE8 so why bother?

[Hasse Wind 46]

I like the Quirks. Every time I meet them in campaign it brings me a step or two closer to the Blue Max.

[themightysrc 5]

"I think one of the reasons the Quirk doesn't have an observer's gun is probably not so much an animation limit as a limit of the CFS3 engine. I get the distinct impression that the game engine requires a gun to be in 1 place on a plane at all times."

 

Doesn't the FE2b have a 2 position observer gun setup? Not flown it, but a quick glance persuades me on that?

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

"I think one of the reasons the Quirk doesn't have an observer's gun is probably not so much an animation limit as a limit of the CFS3 engine. I get the distinct impression that the game engine requires a gun to be in 1 place on a plane at all times."

 

Doesn't the FE2b have a 2 position observer gun setup? Not flown it, but a quick glance persuades me on that?

 

 

yeah, but one faces forward while the other faces aft.

 

truth to tell, I don't REALLY know why the BE2c/12 is modelled the way that it is-- I can only guess.

[Bullethead 12]

Doesn't the FE2b have a 2 position observer gun setup? Not flown it, but a quick glance persuades me on that?

 

The Fee really had 2 separate guns for the observer, 1 facing forward and 1 facing aft. Both could pivot, but both remained on their mounts, so always shot into their own arcs. The front gun couldn't cover the rear or vice versa.

 

The Quirk, OTOH, just had 1 gun, which could be picked up and moved between IIRC 5 different mounts surrounding the observer's cockpit. Thus, the gun had different, rather limited, arcs depending on which mount it was in at the time.

 

CFS3, OTGH, was built for WW2 when such archaic arrangments as the Quirk's had gone out of style. So the game apparently expects to see only 2 types of guns: those fixed in place firing forward, and those pivoting in place covering a specific arc.

 

Another apparent CFS3 limit is that it assumes that if you have multiple pivoting guns, you also have a gunner for each. Thus, all the pivot guns can fire simultaneously, either at the same or different targets, even if in real life you only have 1 gunner. You see this very occasionally in the Fee, but not often enough for it to be anything approaching a buzzkill. Instead, almost all the time, only the front gun is firing. If the rear gun ever shoots, you're about to take a dirt nap . I haven't flown CFS3 itself at all, but I expect this also happens to the cheek guns of B17s and B24s, the upper tail guns of the Ju-88, etc. But I guess they didn't think this was a big enough problem to make a special case for.

 

To be honest, though, the Quirk observer's gun was mostly there for show. In no position could it shoot downwards, it could only shoot upwards a little when firing back over the pilot, and in no case did it have much lateral arc, so there were big gaps between the arcs of its various mounts. Besides that, it took real time and effort to move the heavy gun from mount to mount, so it was incapable of reacting to rapidly changing threat directions or tracking a target passing at high deflection. Plus, at high altitude, the observer often was too hypoxic to be able to lift the gun at all, even without having to fight the slipstream (or so says the Quick pilot whose book I read). Plus, there was a pretty high chance of fumbling the gun over the side.

 

So really, while I would like to see the Quick be more formidable, upon giving this more thought I've concluded that OBD was correct in NOT giving its observer anything to shoot with. Even if all the software technical issues could be overcome, at the bottom line it still would be practically the same as not having a defensive gun at all.

[wonderwarthog 0]

A good compromise would have been (1) no guns at all, and certainly delete that Vickers, which is completely ahistorical, (2) giving the observer the upside down "U" bar mounting for the the Lewis which was common and allowed him to shoot to the rear over the pilot's head, or (3) the pilot's Lewis gun which was angled out to shoot outside the prop arc (illustrated in the Albatros Publication on the BE2c). The best defense a BE2c has is maneuver, since the wing-warping Eindekker maneuvers like a garbage truck with four flats.

Edited May 3, 2009 by wonderwarthog