Jasta 11 Albatros D.III's

[+quack74 329]

First I would like to thank WarlordATF for allowing me to use his original Jasta 11 D.III skins. He's the one who did the research for most of these skins. I just touched them up a bit and added a couple more from my own research. I'm going to repost WarlordATF's skins along with mine just to keep them all together in the download section. A lot of you already downloaded WarlordATF's D.III. They generally will look the same except for some weathering and the painted over insignias. Also the colors have been laid down differently to show more of the panel lines and such.

 

The first batch is Jasta 11 D.III's from March to April 1917.

The second batch is Jasta 11 from late April 1917 to the early summer. This is when other members of the Jasta insisted on painting there aircraft in an overall red. They would add their own personal colors though to the nose, elevators, and some fuselage bands. Sadly not too many photo exist of Jasta 11 DIII's or D.V's. So these are all that are known. That being said I'll add a generic D.III to add some more planes in the flights.

 

I'll post these very soon.

There will be a lot of pics here. I figured it's been a little slow here for awhile, so here is something to look at

 

 

 

Late April 1917

 

 

Edited January 25, 2010 by quack74

[Southside Bucky 1]

Hi Quack.

 

Having got your all clear to make a few suggestions,...here goes nuthin' as you American's say...

 

First up, I s'pose I should mention the main man:

 

I think it's generally accepted that the upper wings of MvR's first Alb D.III (serial number unknown, but known as 'Le Petit Rouge'), were not painted red but left in the early green/brown factory finish.

 

The colour of the lower wings is more contentious though: Until recently the perceived wisdom was that they were factory finished as well. However, Jim Miller (Combat Ace member JFM), has depicted 'Le Petit Rouge' with red lower wings in his most excellent book: Ace Profiles No.3: Manfred von Richthofen. Jim's meticulous attention to detail in his analysis and research, and thorough knowledge of all things Richthofen is such that I, for one, wouldn't argue with him.

 

Complete with full colour profiles of every documented plane flown by MvR, I recommend his book highly. http://www.airpowereditions.com/our-books-red-baron.html

 

MvR's late D.III.

No positively identified photos exist of MvR's later D.III (789/17) which he used in June '17, but it's believed that it probably had both sets of wings in the factory finish too. I think Jasta 11's overpainting of wings only began with the arrival of the D.V in late June.

 

Lubbert's yellow/blue D.III.

There's a photo of this machine. The blue is very light in shade...Probably the underside sky blue rather than that deep blue.

 

Wolf's purple D.III.

Personally, I reckon the overall purple machine came later (June?). IMHO, his earlier plane had the red nose and purple rear fuselage and tail, in the same proportions as Schaefer's red nose/black tail machine. Also, the wings would've been in the green/brown finish.

 

 

Hope that helps, man

 

Bucky

Edited January 25, 2010 by Southside Bucky

[+quack74 329]

All those things you mentioned are things I and I'm sure others have wondered about. In the above photos there is a red fuselage D.III with no markings but has the three color wings. Culd this one be used as MvR's early D.III? WarlordATF and myself have this one down as Festner's DIII. But I dont think there is a photo of Festners DIII anyway. If this DIII could be used as MvR's, then would it be safe to say it was used in this colorscheme till the middle or end of April 1917? Then after this date, when most of Jasta 11's DIII's fuselages were painted in overall red, would it be safe to say thats when MvR used the ALL red DIII? Before the arival of the DV that is. So the all red DIII (if there was one) was only used for 1 month? His first DV I didnt include with my Jasta11 DV's. Just the all red one. His first DV had a standard fuselage with red nose, red wings and struts, red wheel discs with red struts, and a complete red tail section I believe. This is the one he was shot in the melon in I'm sure. Is this wrong?

 

As far as Lubbert's D.III, I have seen a few pics of this one. Such an odd paint job. The blue does seem to be a bit lighter you're right about that. I'll work on that and see how it looks. Ok, There were two Lubberts with Jasta 11 in early 1917. Brothers. Eddie Lubbert(?) I think flew the blue and yellow D.III early on but was killed early before June 1917(dont remember where I read the date). BUT there are a couple of photos of an Albatros D.V with what appears to be the same color scheme after E. Lubberts death. His brother maybe???? Does anyone know of this? There is a photo of MvR's DV and this other blue(?) and yellow(?) with white stripe D.V infront of hangers visiting Koghol 3 in the summer of 1917. Again Eddie Lubbert was dead by this time. I would like to do a D.V in this color scheme if it did indeed exist and belong to Jasta 11. Anyone have anything to add please do.

 

Now Kurt Wolff's D.III. WarlordATF did include a version with just the rear fuselage and tail section in purple. I can add this color scheme. But, as MvR's D.III wasnt all red till mid to late April 1917, can I say that Wolff's D.III was painted this way until the same time before becoming (all?) purple? And were the wings painted purple-brown-purple early on with the natural varnished fuselage and purple tail? His later D.III was said to have light blue wheel discs. I have to change that.

 

Thanks for the info Bucky. I'll work on these the next couple of days.

[+quack74 329]

1. Did Karl Schafer's earlyD.III have a yellow nose and a yellow band just aft of the cockpit but just ahead of the black rear fuselage? And what was the color of the wheel discs?

 

2. Did MvR's early D.III have standard finish on the rear horizontal stabilizers and elevators as well as on the wings?

 

3. Wolff's early D.III with the rear fuselage painted purple, what were the wings painted? standard or purple - brown - purple?

 

4. A million more questions

 

I have to remember this is for a game, not a research book

[Southside Bucky 1]

In the above photos there is a red fuselage D.III with no markings but has the three color wings. Culd this one be used as MvR's early D.III?

 

Yeah, so long as it has the centrally placed wing radiator, as opposed to the later version with the offset rad.

 

 

 

If this DIII could be used as MvR's, then would it be safe to say it was used in this colorscheme till the middle or end of April 1917?

 

Yep, that's a fair assumption.

 

 

 

Then after this date, when most of Jasta 11's DIII's fuselages were painted in overall red, would it be safe to say thats when MvR used the ALL red DIII?

 

Safe to say, only if you believe that he had any D.III painted red overall including the wings...My personal opinion is that the overpainting of wings started with the D.V. But with no photos to go by, who's to say?

 

 

 

His first DV had a standard fuselage with red nose, red wings and struts, red wheel discs with red struts, and a complete red tail section I believe. This is the one he was shot in the melon in I'm sure. Is this wrong?

 

Yeah, that's the one. Unfortunately, the serial number's unknown.

 

 

 

Now Kurt Wolff's D.III. WarlordATF did include a version with just the rear fuselage and tail section in purple. I can add this color scheme. But, as MvR's D.III wasnt all red till mid to late April 1917, can I say that Wolff's D.III was painted this way until the same time before becoming (all?) purple? And were the wings painted purple-brown-purple early on with the natural varnished fuselage and purple tail?

 

Again, no one can say with any certainty the exact sequence or extent of the purple overpainting of Wolf's D.III. Some say it was overall purple in March/early April, others say it was partially purple at that time. All I can suggest is to do what Warlord did and include both versions so people can make their own choice. What I would say though, is that the purple/brown wings colour combo seems unlikely to me...Why?...Because it just looks bloody horrible!

[+quack74 329]

I'll tell ya Bucky, it seems that the compitition has stolen FE's thunder. Where is everybody?????????? Not a good sign

 

Third Wire better come out with something good for FE and soon!

 

This Jasta 11 thread took me away from finishing the F2b's. I'll finish them first. They're coming out real nice.

Edited January 26, 2010 by quack74

[Southside Bucky 1]

Yeah, it does seem quiet round here these days, but then again, there seems to be quite a few people reading but not posting. The 11 Sqn, F2b thread for instance, has had over 250 views since you started it five days ago...That 'aint so bad I s'pose.

 

Anyway, back to your questions:

 

 

 

1. Did Karl Schafer's earlyD.III have a yellow nose and a yellow band just aft of the cockpit but just ahead of the black rear fuselage? And what was the color of the wheel discs?

 

No, I've never seen Schaefer's D.III with any yellow on it. I've seen photos of it with a black rear fuselage/tail, and factory finished grey nose and wheels, but I think it's generally believed that it eventually had the red nose and wheels.

 

 

 

2. Did MvR's early D.III have standard finish on the rear horizontal stabilizers and elevators as well as on the wings?

 

No, I think the whole tailplane was painted red, top 'n bottom.

 

 

 

3. Wolff's early D.III with the rear fuselage painted purple, what were the wings painted? standard or purple - brown - purple?

 

As I said, I reckon they were left in the standard factory finish, but that is just my personal view.

 

 

Later!

Edited January 26, 2010 by Southside Bucky

[JFM 18]

Hello,

 

My friend Southside Bucky has a great handle on things but I'll throw in a cent or two. (Your quotes are in bold.)

 

All those things you mentioned are things I and I'm sure others have wondered about. In the above photos there is a red fuselage D.III with no markings but has the three color wings. Culd this one be used as MvR's early D.III? WarlordATF and myself have this one down as Festner's DIII. But I dont think there is a photo of Festners DIII anyway.

 

I know of at least two partial photos of Festner’s D.III—assumed to be his D.III, anyway, as in one he’s sitting on the turtledeck with his legs dangling into the cockpit. This airplane appears not to have been overpainted in the red wash—or the wash was very, very thin, at least initially (and one photo shows what appears to be a definite vertical demarcation between a lighter portion of the fuselage and a darker portion, just aft of the cabane struts on the starboard side). This machine had an offset radiator. Date of these photos is between 13-25 April. Seems at some point his plane was painted red, however, as this was the time when Jasta 11 adopted the red color for all their planes, and one claim for Festner’s KiA (25 April) described his plane as “red.”

 

If this DIII could be used as MvR's, then would it be safe to say it was used in this colorscheme till the middle or end of April 1917? Then after this date, when most of Jasta 11's DIII's fuselages were painted in overall red, would it be safe to say thats when MvR used the ALL red DIII?

 

At best this is conjectural. Manfred began using a red D.III from at least January 1917. In the famous photo of Jasta 11 pilots near MvR's Le Petit Rouge at Roucourt, a camouflage pattern can be seen on the upper wing but not the lower, which is as dark as the fuselage. In a photo of LPR taken some time earlier, a camouflage pattern can be seen on the lower port wing, which is what led me to theorize that it was eventually overpainted (although colors and markings luminary Greg VanWyngarden disagrees with me on this). The upper wing was not painted red, however, at least as late as 20-25 April 1917, when that photo of it was taken at Roucourt.

 

After April, MvR was gone from the front all of May and until mid-June, after which he scored one victory with D.III 789/17. MvR did not describe this plane’s appearance in is combat report and I’ve not found a description of it anywhere else. I drew it with a red fuselage and factory camo wings, but this profile is provisional.

 

Before the arival of the DV that is. So the all red DIII (if there was one) was only used for 1 month?

 

IMO there was no all-red D.III, although I concede D.789/17 might have been all-red, maybe, if. As far as I know, nobody knows, except maybe German researcher Manfred Thiemeyer, but he holds his cards extremely close to his vest.

 

His first DV I didnt include with my Jasta11 DV's. Just the all red one. His first DV had a standard fuselage with red nose, red wings and struts, red wheel discs with red struts, and a complete red tail section I believe. This is the one he was shot in the melon in I'm sure. Is this wrong?

 

No, that’s correct. However, before he flew that D.V (serial no. unknown) he scored with D.1177/17, which is presumed to have been all-red IF this is the plane seen in the photos taken at the Gontrode Zeppelin shed. Could be, as you can see the upper wing camo pattern through the red wash and it matches the camo pattern in another photo of D.1177/17 prior to red painting. Also, the lower wings were solid green and no camo demarcation can be seen through the red wash in the Gontrode photo—i.e, red wash over solid green. Richthofen merely described this plane as having a “red body” on 23 and 25 June. Doesn’t mean the wings weren't painted red later, OR the plane in the Gontrode photo is not 1177/17.

 

As far as Lubbert's D.III, I have seen a few pics of this one. Such an odd paint job. The blue does seem to be a bit lighter you're right about that. I'll work on that and see how it looks. Ok, There were two Lubberts with Jasta 11 in early 1917. Brothers. Eddie Lubbert(?) I think flew the blue and yellow D.III early on but was killed early before June 1917(dont remember where I read the date). BUT there are a couple of photos of an Albatros D.V with what appears to be the same color scheme after E. Lubberts death. His brother maybe???? Does anyone know of this?

 

There are also photos of a Jasta 11 D.III painted as Lübbert’s taken after his death. So, either there was more than one machine painted that way, he was shot down in a machine not normally his own, or the “half blue, half yellow” D.III ascribed to him was not quartered horizontally as everyone believes. Maybe the front half was blue and the back half was yellow? In my book I linked him with D.1996/16 but I’m stepping back from that a bit because I’ve found no nth degree connection between Lübbert and this machine.

 

There is a photo of MvR's DV and this other blue(?) and yellow(?) with white stripe D.V infront of hangers visiting Koghol 3 in the summer of 1917. Again Eddie Lubbert was dead by this time. I would like to do a D.V in this color scheme if it did indeed exist and belong to Jasta 11. Anyone have anything to add please do.

 

I am familiar with a couple photos taken in front of the Gontrode sheds but none of them show a plane such as what you’ve described. Could you direct me to a photo in a book so I can see what you mean before commenting?

 

Now Kurt Wolff's D.III. WarlordATF did include a version with just the rear fuselage and tail section in purple. I can add this color scheme. But, as MvR's D.III wasnt all red till mid to late April 1917, can I say that Wolff's D.III was painted this way until the same time before becoming (all?) purple? And were the wings painted purple-brown-purple early on with the natural varnished fuselage and purple tail? His later D.III was said to have light blue wheel discs. I have to change that.

 

Yesterday I wrote my dear friend Southside Bucky about Wolff’s machines, so I’ll just quote part of the message: “I am of the mindset that Wolff’s “plum purple” machine was from March, as described by Lübbert on 6 March. Serial number unknown (at least by me and those I’ve asked [and if you know it please tell me!]), and how much was painted purple is also unknown (I believe [and I could be wrong, but this is my hunch] that the half-purple fuselage description stems from the photo of D.2099/16 overturned on some RR tracks and misidentified as having been flown by Wolff when he was wounded by Tripes on 11 July [bodenschatz described Wolff returning to Marckebeke after that sortie and getting out of the cockpit very irritated or agitated {forget the exact word used} after he had been wounded]). Wolff’s 632/17 arrived (according to Ferko) 19 April and there is the photo of this machine in factory appearance taking off, ostensibly from Roucourt. Later on, according to Lothar, they (J11) begged Manfred to let them also adopt red for their planes, with each having an identifying color. He described that they “looked with pride on our red birds,” which to me reads that all of them were red to a large degree. When? Had to be in late April because he wrote Allmenröder’s plane was red with white (although he wrote white elevator, rudder and read part of the fuselage, and I’ve only seen the nose, spinner and elevator white in photos, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t have been further painted later, or he just got it wrong in his memory). Lübbert described Allmenröder’s plane as being “field gray” in March, and via the photos the Allmenröder machine with white is much darker than gray. This plane 629/17 (according to Ferko) arrived 21 April, and Allmenröder was on leave for most of April, anyway. So, at the same time as this, i.e. late April, Lothar described Wolff’s as red with green. I used to have that famous photo of Wolff next to this machine but lost it in my computer crash. Seems the horizontal stabs and elevator were green, but it’s damn hard to tell.”

 

Lot of tangents in there (I torture that poor man with my emails), so I’ll boil it down: I believe Wolff’s D.III was purple in March and early April. Issued a new D.III 632/17 19 April, which became the red with green machine. Wheel covers were very light and most likely light blue, at least in the photograph of Wolff standing with 632/17. I cannot say what color the wheel covers were on the purple machine in March.

 

1. Did Karl Schafer's earlyD.III have a yellow nose and a yellow band just aft of the cockpit but just ahead of the black rear fuselage? And what was the color of the wheel discs?

 

I agree with Southside Bucky and believe the “yellow” description of this plane is actually the shellacked and varnish wooden fuselage; i.e., unpainted from the factory. Schaefer had at least two machines painted in this fashion; one had a (presumably) red nose and spinner, and each had their serial numbers surrounded by black paint in different fashions. One of them, D.2062/17, did not have a red nose/spinner and had very light wheel covers, likely light blue. This is the plane that was photographed with the shot-up Axial propeller and had the entire serial number (including year) and Axial rudder logo unpainted. In the well-known photo of Schaefer standing with the D.III (cloths tied to his coat fluttering in the wind, ladder leaning cockpit), that plane had the red nose, only the serial number (which I can’t make out) and not the year/Alb logo unpainted, and the radiator looks offset where 2062/17's was central. To me, its prop looks to be a Garuda where 2062/17s was an Axial, at least up until it was shot up. Wheel covers are very dark, either red or black. He had a third machine that was entirely dark, and different researchers debate whether it was all red over a once-half-black fuselage or was half red/half black. This is the machine he took to Jasta 28.

 

Here's a drawing of D.2062/17 the SSB coincidentally sent back to me today:

 

 

2. Did MvR's early D.III have standard finish on the rear horizontal stabilizers and elevators as well as on the wings?

 

Debatable, although again I lean toward what Bucky said. The horizontal stabs/elevators look awfully dark in the famous April Roucourt lineup photo, don’t they? There is a suggestion of camo demarcation in another Roucourt photo (with the pilots of J11 standing nearby) but that could be anything from a photographic anomaly to chalk, dirt, etc. Painting this area (and the lower wings) red would have been much easier than painting the upper wings—this is hardly proof that they were, however.

 

3. Wolff's early D.III with the rear fuselage painted purple, what were the wings painted? standard or purple - brown - purple?

 

Again, I know of no provenance that only the rear fuselage was painted purple. Doesn’t mean it wasn’t, but what is this based on? Regardles, the Albatros that has been described as being purple, in March, would have had its wings camouflaged in pale green/olive green/venetian red, but I cannot say the exact order or pattern (there were several variations).

 

4. A million more questions

 

I know! Every day I ask myself a million new ones.

 

I have to remember this is for a game, not a research book

 

It’s amazing how many people learn history from flight sims, so IMO it’s very important to mirror history as much as it can be mirrored, even with flight sim skins. Regardless, inherently there is much conjecture with this subject so sometimes a best guess is all we have to go on, at least until more information is uncovered.

 

Whatever you do, pretty please, with sugar on top, get the damn Albatros rudder logo correctly oriented on the port side! Be the first to do it correctly! It "flies toward" the spinner on both sides of the rudder.

 

 

BTW, going to grab your skins. Thank you very much for them.

 

(Edited for typos. Probably many others I missed.)

Edited January 27, 2010 by JFM

[+quack74 329]

Sorry I dont have the time right now to respond to your well explained descriptions. But may I say I'm honored you replied to my thread. I have read many of your posts over at theaerodrome.com for the last couple of years. I'm fairly new to WWI aviation and in the last couple of years have bought many books and started doing my own research. As you can tell from my skins, I'm trying to get them as accurate as possible. There are some mistakes I know. But like you said "sometimes a best guess is all we have to go on, at least until more information is uncovered". It's very very frustrating to say the least.

 

Ofcourse the most colorful era for aviation is photographed in black and white . Thank you JFM for your help

[Southside Bucky 1]

Hi Quack.

 

I know you've got paint jobs coming at you from all angles ATM, but I was just wondering how these were coming on?

[+quack74 329]

Almost forgot about those I think they're about done. I might have to touch up a couple of them. I need to make up a readme file for them all. I'll try and get them posted ASAP. Thanks for reminding me.

 

 

[JFM 18]

He's working on getting those Albatros logos round the right way!

[+quack74 329]

He's working on getting those Albatros logos round the right way!

 

 

Are they all backwards???? I havnt noticed. I'll have to take a close look. If they are it would be impossible to fix for everyone. I can fix the ones I'll release though.

 

Before I release these Jasta 11 D.III's I need to make a generic early Jasta 11 and a late (all red fuselage) Jasta 11. Then you could use them along with the few ace skins I'll put out. I'll include in the readme file on how to install these generic skins like they were individual aircraft. So there would be an aircraft folder AlbatrosD3 (stock with all other skins) and an AlbatrosD3 J11 (new all red Jasta 11). The AC folder that reads AlbatrosD3 J11 will only have the new generic Jasta 11 skin in it. That way I can alter the service date in the _DATA.ini to appear ONLY after late April 1917. I even made an early Jasta 11 D.III aircraft folder that only has the early J11 D.III generic skin in it (plain fuselage with red wheels and nose). Gets confusing but it's really easy to do. I do it with all my generic skins. This way If I'm in a Camel in a single mission I can be engaged by Albatros D.III's from Jasta 12 and also by D.III's from Jasta 11, and so on and so on. If you do it enough you never know what jasta or Squadron you'll come up against. The planes that would appear were always at random but the skin of those plane were always the same. So I changed it. I got tired of always seeing Jasta 11 Fokker Dr.1's. I'm going on aren't I? Anyway you get the idea. It almost should be a sticky.

 

I was actually thinking of making Jasta 11 generic D.III's with random personal markings of color for the Nose and Elevators using a red fuselage. Might be a cool way to go.

 

 

[JFM 18]

Hi, Quack. I was just kidding about how you spent your time! But, yes, every single stock Alb skin has the port rudder logo backwards. Not only with FE, but RoF and OFF as well. I can't tell on yours because of size/angle of screenshots, etc., but I can see that the Lubbert skin's logo is backwards for sure. No fault of yours, though, since you probably just used the stock version.

 

But, eh, go for it! I'm just an Alb pedant, I confess. Anyway, I've been working on my own skins to get rid of the various little erroneous things that drive me nuts (some of which are on the Alb skins I uploaded here a couple years ago!) so I'll cease foisting that upon others.

Edited March 1, 2010 by JFM