HPW FM + Empty Weight Mod + Gun Arc Mod

[CaptSopwith 26]

Hi guys,

 

I've dived back into some great OFF flying in the last few days and boy, did I pick the perfect time to come back! I see HPW has a new DM - which I'll post my thoughts on over in his thread.

 

I wanted to post this questions seperately so as not to derail the other thread. I'm wondering, Herr Prop-Wasche, if it's possible to run your new DM with the FM mods you released earlier this year, as well as 33LIMA's great Empty Weight Mod (which makes combat much more even handed and finally removes that always-frustrating feeling that I cannot keep up with my flight) and his Gunner Arc Mod. I just flew a few missions against some British FE2b's and they seemed utterly defenseless - so I thought perhaps the new Gun Arc Mod would help. A lot of little mods I know, but I am having so much fun flying that I can't help but see if I can make it even better!

 

Any thoughts on this? BTW: The new DM is fantastic!

[33LIMA 972]

First, I should say the Arcmod doesn't affect the FE2b. A quick look at the settings indicated its arcs of fire didn't look too bad as they were, but I must take one up for a spin and try gunning myself. I may then add it to the mod.

 

ArcMod CAN be enabled with HPW's DM - BUT be sure to use ONLY the version of ArcMod specially made (by HPW himself) to go with it - this one, which you enable AFTER, and on top of, the DM:

http://combatace.com...damage-mod-125/

 

The AI Empty Weight Mod CAN be enabled as well as HPW's DM - that's what I'm flying with now.

 

The AI Empty Weight Mod CANNOT be enabled as well as any FM mod - UNLESS you do it selectively, in which case it CAN...with some limitations (tho I think it gives you the best of both worlds). Again, this is how I'm flying now. Explanation follows...

 

HOW TO ENABLE AND USE THE AI EMPTY WEIGHT MOD AND HPW'S FM MOD AT THE SAME TIME

 

The problem is that both these mods use modified versions of each plane's aircraft.cfg file. If you apply one, it over-writes the other. This isn't good.

 

But OFF provides more-or-less separate planes for the player and the AI. If you look in OFF's 'Aircraft' folder, the player flies the planes labelled QC1 and Sqd, the AI flies those labelled AC and SQ (I think the aI flies the QC1 planes in quick combat but that's no big deal).

 

So - the way to use both mods at the same time, is to apply the AI empty weight mod to the planes ONLY flown by the AI (SQ and AC) - which it does, anyway! And apply HPW's FM mod ONLY to the planes flown by the player (QC1 and Sqd).

 

To do this, you need to:

 

1. Make a copy of HPW's different FM mods- a full copy of each mod's folder, complete with all subfolders & files - Allied, German and Nieuport 28;

 

2. In the copy FM mods you just made, DELETE the AI-only planes (SQ and AC) leaving ONLY the player-flown ones (QC1 and Sqd). I also deleted the 2-seaters tho I'm not sure now I needed to!

 

3. Rename the copy mods to something you will recognise, when looking at them in JSGME - like 'HPW_AlliedFM_Player' etc.

 

4. Enable both mods (AI Empty Weight and your MODIFIED FM mods, not the original ones) in any order; they now contain separate files, the former for AI only planes, the latter for player planes.

 

Granted the AI won't get the benefit of the FM changes (tho the player will) - but I think it's much more important the AI don't get the advantage of flying at unladen weight - may as well give them an extra 20hp or so.

 

A combined version of the FM and AI empty weight mods would be the ideal solution, and may come at some point.

Edited November 17, 2011 by 33LIMA

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Releasing a combined HPW FM and 33Lima weight mod for the player, along with 33Lima's weight mod for the AI planes is certainly doable. I can save time by simply using 33Lima's settings for the QC and Sqd versions and letting users apply the weight mod for the AI flyable versions (SQ and AC). Of course, the FM for the players and the AI will be different for some planes, but the AI does not seem to be too bothered by such differences.

 

Lima, did you already send me some files with your weight changes in them? If not, send them to me and I can start work on incorporating the weight changes into the planes whose FM's have been changed.

[CaptSopwith 26]

As of right now I'm playing with HPW's new DM with the Arc Mod and the Empty Tank mod and I have to say, the balance of the game feels quite good. It's a welcome change to take off with my wingmen, rather than see them take off, climb to absurd altitudes, and have me straggling behind trying to keep up. So so far, so good. I'm enjoying the sim immensely!

[33LIMA 972]

Releasing a combined HPW FM and 33Lima weight mod for the player, along with 33Lima's weight mod for the AI planes is certainly doable. I can save time by simply using 33Lima's settings for the QC and Sqd versions and letting users apply the weight mod for the AI flyable versions (SQ and AC). Of course, the FM for the players and the AI will be different for some planes, but the AI does not seem to be too bothered by such differences.

 

Lima, did you already send me some files with your weight changes in them? If not, send them to me and I can start work on incorporating the weight changes into the planes whose FM's have been changed.

 

Hi HPW

Maybe i'm misunderstanding but if you mean the files with the extra weight edits, the best source of these is the AI Empty Weight Mod itself, here. It has a 'weight-added' version of the aircraft.cfg file, for all the AI-only planes in BH&H and HiTR (the AC and SQ ones). No .air files, as the AI seem to ignore these (at least, they take their weight from the aircraft.cfg files, not the .air files, which may be why they fly at empty weight in the first place). I didn't touch the files for the player-flown planes (QC1 and Sqd) - the Weight mod is only for the AI-flown planes (AC and SQ).

 

If it's something else you meant, let me know and I'll post it. The only value edited in each file is Empty-weight, which I increased as described in the readme, according to the rationale also described therein.

 

At the moment I'm using your FM mod - Allied + German + N.28 - variants of these containing and applied to ONLY the player-flown planes as described above (AI planes stripped out), plus your DM, plus the AI empty weight mod, plus arcmod (DM version), plus flakmod, and all seems well. A combined FM and Empty Weight mod option would be better still.

Edited November 18, 2011 by 33LIMA

[33LIMA 972]

As of right now I'm playing with HPW's new DM with the Arc Mod and the Empty Tank mod and I have to say, the balance of the game feels quite good. It's a welcome change to take off with my wingmen, rather than see them take off, climb to absurd altitudes, and have me straggling behind trying to keep up. So so far, so good. I'm enjoying the sim immensely!

 

Glad you like the results you're seeing, Cap'n. I appreciate the feedback! Previously, I had suspected the Empty Weight Mod might NOT affect your AI flightmates, only other AI, but from what you describe, it seems that it affects all AI, which is good. I fly as leader and I had noticed that my flightmates need me to throttle back otherwise they take somewhat longer to catch up, which also supports this. One of my wingies often seems to catch up faster, tho. I also notice that enemy flights often seem to have one plane faster (ranging well ahead) than the others. Such variations MAY be due to the fact that, per the Devs, some OFF planes have been left with 'engine boost' active (not the same as the CFS3 War Emergency Power thing, apparently), which they say was done to reflect the fact that in real life, some planes and engines would be better than others, IIRC.

Anyway I'm delighted you're finding the 'mod combo' improves your experience of OFF

Edited November 18, 2011 by 33LIMA

[SirMike1983 3]

I look forward to a combined HPW and empty weight download.

[33LIMA 972]

For info, I have uploaded an additional ArcMod specifically for the FE2b (two versions, for use with or without HPW's 1.25 Damage Mod). It gives both front and rear guns more realistic fields of fire; flying or gunning the Fee, you will now be a more dangerous foe; attacking one, the very wide blind spot straight behind has been somewhat reduced and you will now need to come in lower, to keep clear of return fire.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Hi HPW

Maybe i'm misunderstanding but if you mean the files with the extra weight edits, the best source of these is the AI Empty Weight Mod itself, here. It has a 'weight-added' version of the aircraft.cfg file, for all the AI-only planes in BH&H and HiTR (the AC and SQ ones). No .air files, as the AI seem to ignore these (at least, they take their weight from the aircraft.cfg files, not the .air files, which may be why they fly at empty weight in the first place). I didn't touch the files for the player-flown planes (QC1 and Sqd) - the Weight mod is only for the AI-flown planes (AC and SQ).

 

If it's something else you meant, let me know and I'll post it. The only value edited in each file is Empty-weight, which I increased as described in the readme, according to the rationale also described therein.

Yeppers, I realized that after I made my post. I already have your AI Empty Weight download. Looks like all I have to change in my FM mods are the empty weight values for the AC and SQ types. A few aircraft will have different values than yours, however, because I altered some of the empty weights in tinkering with the FM's. Also, would you have any objection if I lowered the empty weights just a bit on the Allied planes to reflect that they usually crossed the lines while the German planes mainly stayed on their side, thus using less fuel than the Allied?

 

At the moment I'm using your FM mod - Allied + German + N.28 - variants of these containing and applied to ONLY the player-flown planes as described above (AI planes stripped out), plus your DM, plus the AI empty weight mod, plus arcmod (DM version), plus flakmod, and all seems well. A combined FM and Empty Weight mod option would be better still.

Glad to hear that we haven't created any conflicts so far!

[33LIMA 972]

Yeppers, I realized that after I made my post. I already have your AI Empty Weight download. Looks like all I have to change in my FM mods are the empty weight values for the AC and SQ types. A few aircraft will have different values than yours, however, because I altered some of the empty weights in tinkering with the FM's. Also, would you have any objection if I lowered the empty weights just a bit on the Allied planes to reflect that they usually crossed the lines while the German planes mainly stayed on their side, thus using less fuel than the Allied?

 

 

Glad to hear that we haven't created any conflicts so far!

 

By all means tinker with the weights - I had also thought of slightly reducing the 'Allied' weights to allow for longer cruising distances, but I didn't, partly because making that difference would have involved also making the assumption that the Germans generally started off with a full load of fuel. I have nothing to prove either way, but given the choice in OFF I know that I rarely fly German missions with more than 75% fuel. From what I've read, both sides missions operated to a programme, so you'd know the sort of operations you'd be flying, the day before, enabling fuel loads to be decided accordingly. So I thought I might as well just apply the extra weight equally!

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

How would you feel about using the Ramp weights rather than the max weight, as a guide to setting the AI's weight load? In general, the ramp weights are slightly lower than the max weights, but not as much as you might think. Ramp weights are meant to represent the weight of the plane after fuel and pilots are accounted for, but do not include ammunition or ordnance, I believe. Maybe we should use ramp weight for scouts and close to max weight for two-seaters, at least those that carried bombs?

 

Also, i noticed some inconsistencies with the max weight of some of the aircraft, for example, the Fokker DVII's and the DFW. In the DFW, the max weight is listed as over twice as high as the reported empty weight, while the DVII and DVII OAW's max weight were only one hundred pounds heavier than their empty weight! Additionally, the Bristol scout's max weight is lower than your revised empty weight, while the revised empty weight for the Spad VII and Xiii are 630 and 470 pounds lighter than their max weights, while most of the other planes average around 80 pounds less than their max weight.

 

In summary, I think the ramp weights give us a little more consistency between the different aircraft. On average, the ramp weights are approximately 120 pounds lower than your revised empty weights, but still 400 pounds heavier, on average, than the current empty weights.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Herr Prop-Wasche

[33LIMA 972]

How would you feel about using the Ramp weights rather than the max weight, as a guide to setting the AI's weight load? In general, the ramp weights are slightly lower than the max weights, but not as much as you might think. Ramp weights are meant to represent the weight of the plane after fuel and pilots are accounted for, but do not include ammunition or ordnance, I believe. Maybe we should use ramp weight for scouts and close to max weight for two-seaters, at least those that carried bombs?

 

Also, i noticed some inconsistencies with the max weight of some of the aircraft, for example, the Fokker DVII's and the DFW. In the DFW, the max weight is listed as over twice as high as the reported empty weight, while the DVII and DVII OAW's max weight were only one hundred pounds heavier than their empty weight! Additionally, the Bristol scout's max weight is lower than your revised empty weight, while the revised empty weight for the Spad VII and Xiii are 630 and 470 pounds lighter than their max weights, while most of the other planes average around 80 pounds less than their max weight.

 

In summary, I think the ramp weights give us a little more consistency between the different aircraft. On average, the ramp weights are approximately 120 pounds lower than your revised empty weights, but still 400 pounds heavier, on average, than the current empty weights.

 

I checked many of the empty and max weights and used corrected ones in very a few cases. In the DFW, the stock OFF max/empty as you say is wrong, at 3146/1431 lbs. Gray & Thetford give 3146/2134 loaded/empty. HOWEVER, the mod works back from the loaded ('max') weight so the incorrect empty weight made no difference (tho it may have meant that un-modded AI DFWs had a massive advantage over player-flown ones!).

 

Again as you say, the DVII stock max/empty weights in OFF are grossly wrong at 1500/1441 loaded/empty (above source says it should be 1870/1540). Clearly also, the DVII wasn't one of the ones I cross-checked as I worked from the stock OFF 1500lbs gross weight! Probably this needs fixed as it means that the mod still gives AI Fokker DVIIs a big advantage, unless doing that would clobber the OFF FMs for both player and AI - testing needed?

 

The Bristol Scout is a strange one. The OFF aircraft file says it's a Scout D with a 100hp Gnome Mono, and has empty weight as 1650 lb. The Profile Publication gives the Scout D's 'loaded' weight as 1442 lbs (incl 80 lbs 'military load') with a 110hp Clerget, , compared to 957 lb for the Scout A with 80hp Gnome, 1195 (again with 80 lb mil load) for the 'D' with a 80hp Le Rhone, and 1089 for the 'D' with an 80 hp Clerget and no 'mil load'. No figures for a 100hp mono. So in the end I went with the OFF figure, as I think it allows for a Lewis and isn't massively bigger than the 110hp Scout D loaded weight given in my quoted source.

 

If ramp weight = max weight minus 'military load', I would still be inclined to favour the original solution, of using loaded 'weight minus some fuel'. It's fairly clear the OFF 'max weight' is not some kind of 'max take-off eight' as it (generally!) corresponds to the figure for 'loaded' weight in most sources. And 'loaded wright INCLUDES (guns and?) ammo - 'the military load' (but probably EXCLUDES a bombload). So I think fuel is the more realistic thing to tinker with and the thing to do is to take some off the loaded weight, not take off the weight of (guns and?) ammo.

 

Besides, I don't think it would make much difference, to taking 80 lbs of fuel weight off scouts, more off 2-seaters. Take the Nieuport 17, for example. My source gives the following figures:

 

empty - 825 lb; fuel and oil 143 lb; pilot and military load 264 lb; loaded 1232 lb. Other sources give 180 lb as a weight for the pilot. So 'ramp weight (loaded weight less military load) = 1232-84 lb = 1148 lb. my solution, take off 80 lbs for fuel used to the combat zone, 1232-80=1152. In this case, in the mod, I went with the OFF figure of 1280 loaded and took the 80 off that. I didn't want to mess up the OFF FMs so only substituted my own figures, where the OFF ones were badly out (missed the DVII, tho!).

 

The SPADs i recall were planes where I used the weights given in my sources, not the OFF weights.

 

The only thing I think is worth doing differently (apart from correcting those Fokkers!) is making a deduction of fuel weight, that represents a percentage of the actual plane's fuel weight, rather than a fixed weight across the board. That was my original plan. But when I looked at that, I decided the differences would be so modest as not to make it worthwhile, not least because it's a fixed allowance for something (fuel used to the combat zone) that in real life is going to vary considerably. Despite that I still think reducing fuel load that way, is on principle better than taking off ammo load, tho in practice both probably end up with a similar result, as in the N.17.

Edited November 20, 2011 by 33LIMA

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Thanks for the information from various sources, Lima. Lots of stuff to digest there, with the errors and other idiosyncracies in the data. I'll have to look at it and get back to you with my thoughts later today.

 

I will say that I substituted the ramp weights for the empty weights in my Allied and German FM mods and they seemed to work perfectly!

[33LIMA 972]

At the end of the day there's maybe not a lot of difference, like you said in your earlier post, maybe 100 lb or so. But I do think taking off just 80lb for fuel used is more than enough - for the N.17 that's 80 out of 143 lb! Of course, for planes with more fuel like the Camel 80 lbs is a lower proportion, but it's simulating the same thing - fuel used to get from airfield to combat area and altitude, so I think 80lb per scout, regardless of type is about right. Insamuch as anything is really right, short of getting the AI to model fuel consumption (and ammo use but that's a much lesser deal).

 

Your suggestion of reducing German scouts by less is of course reasonable (if anything, I would do that, not than take even more fuel weight off 'Allied' planes). Tho again, that's assuming the Germans generally flew with tanks full and (a) I've no info on what they did, either way and (ii) I know I don't, in OFF's equivalent to their position.

 

Early days yet but I'm finding the balance is about 'right' with the 80lbs reduction. But I need to fly some more. Last might my current early 1918 Pfalz campaign had several encounters with SE5s and they seemed to go to the deck rather often (it looked VERY deliberate, not at all like the weight was somehow 'dragging them down') while some Bristols we met at low level did some fairly wild low-level manoeuvres. I think this is most likely an AI issue (and/or FM issue in the case of the Brisfits), not weight. As you say, the extra weight doesn't seem to stop the AI from doing their usual thing - whatever that is, be it good or not so good - whether it's 'ramp weight' or 'gross minus 80 lbs fuel'.it just shaves off the edge they get from effectively getting more HP than they really had.

Edited November 21, 2011 by 33LIMA

[33LIMA 972]

Right I've done some more cross-checking and it's a bit of a can of worms; there are several OFF loaded weight figures which are way too low or way too high. Since the AI empty weight mod works back from the OFF max weight figure, these wrong figures will throw the mod out, too, for these planes.

 

The only ones I had already spotted and corrected in the AI empty weight mod are the two SPADs.

 

Granted the incorrect figures MAY (or may not) affect the player-flown planes too, but I'm going do an update to the mod to correct the others. The results of the cross-check are below; sources other than OFF are G&T=Grey & Thetford, M = Munson, PP= Profile Publications, RoF=Rise of Flight. the ones in BOLD are the ones where I'm going to update the mod, to use the correct loaded weight figure:

 

 

Loaded weight serious inconsistencies (error significantly over 100lbs)

 

DR1 - OFF c.200 lbs too heavy

OFF - 1500

G&T - 1289

M - 1290

PP - 1290

RoF - 1256

 

DVII + DVII OAW - OFF c.400 lbs too light

OFF - 1500

G&T - 1870

M - 1993

PP - 2112/1936

 

EV - OFF c.200 lbs too heavy

OFF - 1503

G&T - 1334

M - 1238

RoF - 1236

 

N11 - OFF c.180 lbs too heavy

OFF - 1230

M - 1058

RoF - 1056

 

RE8 - OFf c.450 lbs too light

OFF - 2190

M - 2678

PP - 2592/2678 (NO bombs)

RoF - 2717

 

Pup - OFF c. 270 lbs too heavy

OFF - 1500

M - 1225

PP - 1225

RoF - 1224

 

Triplane (1-gun) - OFF c.190 lbs too heavy

OFF - 1728

M - 1541

PP - 1541

RoF - 1537

 

SPAD 13 - OFF c . 400 lbs too heavy (Mod already uses correct weight)

OFF - 2200

M - 1808

PP - 1807

 

SPAD 7 - OFF c.450 lbs too heavy (Mod already uses correct weight)

OFF - 2100

M - 1550

RoF - 1548

Edited November 21, 2011 by 33LIMA

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Thanks, Lima.

 

Okay, you have convinced me to use your "fuel weight off" approach, rather than my ramp weight approach, as long as you can be positive that your method does not over-encumber the AI pilot's planes with the additional weight. This also means that I will not have to edit ALL of the .cfg files and instead only the .cfg files of the airplanes included in my FM mods.

 

Instead of taking a set number of pounds off for fuel consumption (80 in your example), you could base it on a proportion of the total fuel capacity of each aircraft. For example, instead of taking 80 pounds off of the N17 total of 143 pounds of fuel, leaving only 63 pounds of fuel in the tank, you could take off a percentage--say 25% from each aircraft--leaving the N17 with 107.25 pounds of fuel left. For the Germans, you could use the same percentage to lower the amount of fuel weight, or, you could lower it to 10% or so, to reflect the smaller amount of fuel they might use than the Allies before combat.

 

Another, more complicated method would be to calculate the rate of fuel consumption for each aircraft and estimate how much time, on average, it takes for the Allies to get over the lines and fight those cowardly Germans! (J/K Olham).

 

Or, we could just leave them all with a full fuel load, which would be a lot simpler.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Herr Prop-Wasche

[33LIMA 972]

First thing to report is that I've just changed the AI DVII's (made heavier), Dr1 and EV (made lighter) and flown against them all in a Camel. None of them showed any strange behaviour - no more than usual, anyway. Of the three, the AI-flown EV was the hardest to stay with (I use the 'less aggressive' AI, or 'historical') which result seems to correspond roughly with my favourable experience of flying it (still just stock, so far) last night. So I'm going to make similar corrections to the 'Allied' planes and check them out too.

 

As for a merged mod, you're doing the hard work so it's your call!

 

But FWIW...

 

...making the AI fly at max (loaded) weight seems to me a step to far - by the time they meet you in combat, they should always have burned off at least some fuel, possibly quite a bit.

 

The main reason I didn't go for a % fuel reduction was partly because it would (unjustly?) penalise planes which had bigger tanks when they would necessarily not have used THAT much more fuel, getting to the combat zone. Distance to the latter should be what the fuel weight usage/reduction is based on I thought, not size of fuel tank.

 

As for using the same, 80 lbs fuel load reduction for all scouts, take the N.17 again, and compare to the Camel F1. N.17 has a 110 hp Le Rhone, & carries 143 lbs of fuel (and oil). Camel has (typically) a 130 hp Clerget and has a fuel (and oil) load of (typically) about 240 lbs. I just took 80 lbs off the loaded weights of both, assuming they had to fly on average equal distances to get into combat with you. I've no info to suggest Nieuports were routinely based closer to the front or given Line Patrols more than OPs or Distant OPs tho that may have been the case. I decided not to make the assumption that the Germans generally flew with full tanks, so applied the 80 lbs to both sides. More importantly, I've made no allowance for different fuel consumption, as the difference that would make seemed to me likely to be marginal, and not worth the effort, especially with a mechanism which is pretty 'broad brush' to begin with. Layering sophistication, on top of something inherently unsophisticated, and producing only minor differences. Which source's laoded weight you used, would make more difference, in many cases.

 

Anyway that was my thinking, such as it was.

Edited November 22, 2011 by 33LIMA

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

First thing to report is that I've just changed the AI DVII's (made heavier), Dr1 and EV (made lighter) and flown against them all in a Camel. None of them showed any strange behaviour - no more than usual, anyway. Of the three, the AI-flown EV was the hardest to stay with (I use the 'less aggressive' AI, or 'historical') which result seems to correspond roughly with my favourable experience of flying it (still just stock, so far) last night. So I'm going to make similar corrections to the 'Allied' planes and check them out too.

 

As for a merged mod, you're doing the hard work so it's your call!

So far, I only have modded the FM's of about 15 of the 47 planes in OFF, so I think you have the larger share of the work, my friend! We DO need to agree on the method for calculating the empty weight and how much alllowance we should make for fuel consumption (if any), so that there is a match between my AI planes that are FM modded and your AI planes that are not FM modded.

 

But FWIW...

 

...making the AI fly at max (loaded) weight seems to me a step to far - by the time they meet you in combat, they should always have burned off at least some fuel, possibly quite a bit.

I agree.

 

The main reason I didn't go for a % fuel reduction was partly because it would (unjustly?) penalise planes which had bigger tanks when they would necessarily not have used THAT much more fuel, getting to the combat zone. Distance to the latter should be what the fuel weight usage/reduction is based on I thought, not size of fuel tank.

I have a spreadsheet that includes the size of each plane's fuel tank, from the Halberstadt with a 15.6 gallon tank to a few planes with over 45 gallon tanks. I suppose we could make a rough estimate as to how much fuel would be consumed by each aircraft on the way to the front based on size of airplane, engine, and weight of airplane, with heavier craft using more gas than lighter ones--one reason, I think, that bigger and heavier aircraft have bigger fuel tanks. Of course, that can get complicated and may not be worth it based on the results you have already seen. Perhaps we could base the % reduction on type of airplane, with scouts having a greater proportion of fuel reduction than two-seaters?

 

As for using the same, 80 lbs fuel load reduction for all scouts, take the N.17 again, and compare to the Camel F1. N.17 has a 110 hp Le Rhone, & carries 143 lbs of fuel (and oil). Camel has (typically) a 130 hp Clerget and has a fuel (and oil) load of (typically) about 240 lbs. I just took 80 lbs off the loaded weights of both, assuming they had to fly on average equal distances to get into combat with you.

Remember that the Camel weighs significantly more than the N17 and probably uses more fuel on its way to the same patrol location.

 

More stuff to think about, but this is your baby, so I'll go along with (almost ) anything you come up with!

[33LIMA 972]

OK let's look at taking off a percentage of each plane's fuel load. Some points to ponder:

 

- for scouts, what percentage do we take off?

(my thoughts - somwehere in between 30% and 60%, seems a good enough ball-park figure, given what we're trying to represent)

 

- do we take more off 'Allies', than Germans (scouts) - if so, how much more?

(my thoughts - ok go for it, take between half and a third less from the Germans - say, take off 30% of fuel weight fro Germans, 50% for 'Allied')

 

- do we take the same weight off 2-seaters?

(my thinking - generalisation - 2 seaters had the same or bigger engines, which had to work harder and sometimes fly from more distant bases; but they had bigger tanks too, so the same % of weight taken off would represent greater fuel consumed; art obs or photo recces often involved flying to and fro in the target area so not unlike scouts patrolling. So am inclined to think take the same % off 2-seaters)

 

- do we treat German and 'Allied' 2-seaters the same??

(my thinking - yes, they flew BROADLY similar missions)

 

Looking at some examples:

 

Camel

Current mod - loaded weight 1498 lbs, minus 80 lbs fuel used, = 1418 lbs. Percentage-based - loaded 1498, minus 125 (50% of c.250 lbs fuel & oil load) = 1373. Difference: %-based Camel 45 lbs lighter.

 

Nieuport 17

Current mod - loaded weight 1280 lbs, minus 80 lbs fuel used, = 1200 lbs. Percentage-based - loaded 1280, minus 72 (50% of 143 lbs) = 1208. Difference: minimal

 

SE5a (Hisso)

Current mod - loaded weight 2048 lbs, minus 80 lbs fuel used, = 1968 lbs. Percentage-based - loaded 2048, minus 115 (50% of 230) = 1933. Difference: %-based SE5a = 25 lbs lighter

 

Fokker DVII

Current mod - loaded weight (corrected) 2112 lbs, minus 80 lbs, = 2032 lbs. Precentage based at 50% 2048 minus 80 (half my estimate of 160, don't have an actual figure, but it was just a bit more than the N.17) = same; at 30%, 2112 minus 48=2064. Difference - 30%-based = 32 lbs lighter; 50%-based = no difference.

 

To be honest, and looking at the above, I don't think a difference of up to 50 lbs (whether plus or minus) in the result, with at least some turning out pretty well the same, makes the more complicated method worthwhile, likewise with taking a few more lbs off German than Allied planes. For some planes, the different weights given in the various sources (including the OFF data files) show a greater variation.

 

For me, the critical factor is that the AI don't seem to notice the extra weight all THAT much. Bumping them all up to loaded weight minus 80lbs, I had to fly repeated missions, before I was convinced it was actually making any difference at all, and that I wasn't suffering from confirmation bias. I was concerned that by taking the AI up to close to their loaded weight, the AI would be stalling out and dropping like dead flies, all over the show. But not a bit of it. I had to do really mad stuff like more than doubling their weight, to get them to the point they could not take off! The extra weight just shaves the edge off; another 50 or so pounds either way is going to make damn-all squared of a difference, from what I have seen.

Edited November 22, 2011 by 33LIMA

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

I agree. Let's try to keep things as simple as possible, as long as they do not create obviously unrealistic behavior.

 

So, max weight minus some pre-determined amount of fuel it is!

 

I have a couple of comments regarding a post you made a few days ago. See my next reply.

[33LIMA 972]

OK thanks HPW, will keep an eye open for that.

 

What weight do you suggest we take off? I'd opted for 80 lbs scouts, 150 lbs 2-seaters. We've gone over some comparative figures (complete with my dodgy maths, one was out by 10 lbs I think). What do you reckon?

 

And how do we do this - do you want to edit in the agreed weight reductions to the AI versions of your plane FM mods, and I'll do the others - then one or t'other of us can merge then, we can agree the readme, and then upload?

 

There's the separate question - only affects the player-flown planes, so just your FM mod - what do we do about the very incorrect OFF max weights eg the two Fokkers DVIIs and the SPADs, in the aircraft.cfg files for the QC1 and Sqd planes? Leave them alone? Correct in the aircraft.cfg files? Correct in the .air files (if they are also out)? The AI seem to use the (empty) weights in the .cfg files and ignore what's in the .air files; maybe it is the other way around with the player-flown ones.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

I checked many of the empty and max weights and used corrected ones in very a few cases. In the DFW, the stock OFF max/empty as you say is wrong, at 3146/1431 lbs. Gray & Thetford give 3146/2134 loaded/empty. HOWEVER, the mod works back from the loaded ('max') weight so the incorrect empty weight made no difference (tho it may have meant that un-modded AI DFWs had a massive advantage over player-flown ones!).

This also means that the player FM for the DFW needs to be redone, to reflect the extra 703 pounds listed for the empty weight! I thought the DFW flew a little too well when I piloted it!

 

Again as you say, the DVII stock max/empty weights in OFF are grossly wrong at 1500/1441 loaded/empty (above source says it should be 1870/1540). Clearly also, the DVII wasn't one of the ones I cross-checked as I worked from the stock OFF 1500lbs gross weight! Probably this needs fixed as it means that the mod still gives AI Fokker DVIIs a big advantage, unless doing that would clobber the OFF FMs for both player and AI - testing needed?

So, an extra 99 pounds empty and an extra 370 pounds max weight re Gray & Thetford means again that the player FM for the Fokker DVII should probably be redone. However, I also wonder if the Gray & Thetford figures are accurate? I made some rough calculations on both the OFF figures and the G & T figures, comparing the reported max weight with the reported empty weight. I did this for all 48 aircraft in OFF. using the OFF data, the average difference was 611 pounds--higher for two-seaters, and lower for scouts. Using the OFF data for the DVII, the difference between max weight and empty weight is 59 pounds (obviously wrong, as you noted). However, the difference between the max weight and empty weight using the G & T data is still only 330 pounds (1870 - 1540 lbs.). To me, and compared to the rest of the scouts, 330 pounds is also too small of a difference. I propose a compromise: take the original OFF empty weight value of 1441 pounds and assume the G & T max weight value of 1870 is correct. Now, the difference between the max and empty weights is 429 pounds--still a little low, but closer to the average of the other scouts. This gives a revised empty weight for the DVII of 1790 lbs.

 

The Bristol Scout is a strange one. The OFF aircraft file says it's a Scout D with a 100hp Gnome Mono, and has empty weight as 1650 lb. The Profile Publication gives the Scout D's 'loaded' weight as 1442 lbs (incl 80 lbs 'military load') with a 110hp Clerget, , compared to 957 lb for the Scout A with 80hp Gnome, 1195 (again with 80 lb mil load) for the 'D' with a 80hp Le Rhone, and 1089 for the 'D' with an 80 hp Clerget and no 'mil load'. No figures for a 100hp mono. So in the end I went with the OFF figure, as I think it allows for a Lewis and isn't massively bigger than the 110hp Scout D loaded weight given in my quoted source.

I think your revised empty weight of 1570 for the Bristol Scout may be too high. First, there is an error in your statement that the OFF empty weight for the Scout is 1650 lbs. That is actually the figure for OFF's max weight. The OFF empty weight figure is 760 lbs. Taking the max weight minus the empty weight, we have a diference of 890 lbs.--too high of a difference for a plane in such an early period of the war. Using Profile Publications loaded figure of 1442 lbs. gives a difference of 682 lbs.--better, but still too high in my opinion. Somewhat arbitrarily, I chose a max weight of 1260 lbs. for the Scout. This gives a difference of 500 lbs. between max and empty weight and leaves us with a revised empty weight of 1180 lbs. instead of 1570 lbs. Everyone pretty much agrees that the Scout in OFF is a dog of a plane, so taking off 390 lbs. or so probably won't make it THAT much better.

 

Another point to consider is that the OFF empty weights may intentionally not be accurate for all of the planes, in order to promote game balance--at least for the human controlled aircraft. For instance, what will be the effect on the player controlled FM of the DVII if we increase its empty weight from 1441 lbs. to 1790 lbs? From my experience, this will result in a slower airplane with a substantially lower climb--although the dive will be faster.

 

I bet you didn't think that an empty weight mod would open up such a fine kettle of fish? I know I didn't. Let me hear your thoughts. Cheers!

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Right I've done some more cross-checking and it's a bit of a can of worms; there are several OFF loaded weight figures which are way too low or way too high. Since the AI empty weight mod works back from the OFF max weight figure, these wrong figures will throw the mod out, too, for these planes.

 

The only ones I had already spotted and corrected in the AI empty weight mod are the two SPADs.

 

Granted the incorrect figures MAY (or may not) affect the player-flown planes too, but I'm going do an update to the mod to correct the others. The results of the cross-check are below; sources other than OFF are G&T=Grey & Thetford, M = Munson, PP= Profile Publications, RoF=Rise of Flight. the ones in BOLD are the ones where I'm going to update the mod, to use the correct loaded weight figure:

 

 

Loaded weight serious inconsistencies (error significantly over 100lbs)

 

DR1 - OFF c.200 lbs too heavy

OFF - 1500

G&T - 1289

M - 1290

PP - 1290

RoF - 1256

 

DVII + DVII OAW - OFF c.400 lbs too light

OFF - 1500

G&T - 1870

M - 1993

PP - 2112/1936

 

EV - OFF c.200 lbs too heavy

OFF - 1503

G&T - 1334

M - 1238

RoF - 1236

 

N11 - OFF c.180 lbs too heavy

OFF - 1230

M - 1058

RoF - 1056

 

RE8 - OFf c.450 lbs too light

OFF - 2190

M - 2678

PP - 2592/2678 (NO bombs)

RoF - 2717

 

Pup - OFF c. 270 lbs too heavy

OFF - 1500

M - 1225

PP - 1225

RoF - 1224

 

Triplane (1-gun) - OFF c.190 lbs too heavy

OFF - 1728

M - 1541

PP - 1541

RoF - 1537

 

SPAD 13 - OFF c . 400 lbs too heavy (Mod already uses correct weight)

OFF - 2200

M - 1808

PP - 1807

 

SPAD 7 - OFF c.450 lbs too heavy (Mod already uses correct weight)

OFF - 2100

M - 1550

RoF - 1548

 

I agree with your findings. Again, the question is do we apply these findings to both the human controlled and AI planes, or just the AI planes? If we apply them to the human controlled planes, then we will also need to revise the human FM's for these planes. If we only apply them to the AI planes, then are the human pilots gaining too much of an advantage? Interestingly, I have already worked on the human FM's for several of the planes you have listed above. The exceptions are the DR1, DVII and DVII OAW, and the N11. These new numbers mean that I will probably have to revise them again. Perhaps we can issue a version 1.0 combined mod without any new FM changes and then release a 2.0 version with updated FM's?

 

One more thing. Do you have any information about the Sopwith Strutter and Strutter B1? In OFF, both have the same empty weight and max weight, but have different ramp weights. Since one is a scout and the other is a two-seater, shouldn't they have different numbers?

 

Thanks.

[33LIMA 972]

Not sure how best to deal with the weight errors as regards the player-flown planes.

 

I have already applied corrections to the AI-only planes in a new version of the empty weight mod which I am now testing. So far so good, tho I need to do some more comparisons over the weekend, to make sure any oddities in the AI behaviour - like their tendency to head for the deck rather readily and then do strange things there - isn't any stranger with the mod.

 

As for the player planes...well, I'm fairly sure the AI-only planes use the EMPTY weight in the aircraft.cfg file - I left the .air files alone, and just increasing the empty weight in the .cfg file had an effect. but what about the LOADED weights in the .cfg files?

 

In testing, I experimented with the EMPTY weight data in the .cfg files for the QC1 planes, as it seems both player and AI use these planes, for quick combat. And adding to the empty weight to a QC1 .cfg file did indeed affect the plane, whether I flew it. or the AI did.

 

But that alone doesn't prove we need to correct LOADED weight errors, for the player-flown planes (QC1 and Sqd).

 

My rationale for that is that the player-flown planes don't use the .cfg file loaded weights. At least, I THINK they don't. I think they take account of variations in ammo and fuel load (if less than 100% selected by the player, and I THINK also from fuel consumption in flight).

 

If that's what they do, they must use the plane's EMPTY (not loaded) weight plus the weights of crew and (selected or remaining) fuel & ammo. At least some of these, they look to get from the .AIR file, as they don't seem to be in the .cfg file. Either way it's only errors in EMPTY weight in the .cfg files, that might need corrected.

 

I think the thing to do is to test this premise by adding a massive amount of weight to a QC1 plane's LOADED weight in its .CFG file. Fly that plane yourself, in QC, before and after. If it flies like a bird before and a brick afterwards, then we have a problem and need to correct the QC1 and Sqd FMs if we also correct the loaded weight. But if it flies like a bird before AND after, we can indeed ignore the errors in my earlier post. For Player-flown planes.

Edited November 25, 2011 by 33LIMA

[33LIMA 972]

Re the Strutter, Profile Publication # 121 has the info below - the full profile is here.