For All You Computer Builders...

[PG_Raptor]

I would like some advice on building a computer. Here's the restraints

 

must be below $600

Min specs:

- 2.5 GHz Processor with 500 (or so) MHz FSB

- 512 RAM, hopefully at least 2700 DDR

- ATI Radeon 9600 Pro

- 40 Gig HD (don't care about the RPM)

 

I don't need any accesories (ie moniters, speakers, keyboard, etc). I have a CD-RW and a 20 Gig HD that I can transfer over.

 

These are the specs I would like to at least have:

- 2.8 GHz Processor with 800 MHz FSB

- 512 RAM, 3200 DDR

- ATI Radeon 9700 Pro

- 40 Gig HD

 

But, like I said, it must be below $600 (and below $500 would be even nicer). Please help me with the motherboard options as well, as I dont know much about those...

Edited November 20, 2003 by PG_Raptor

[Seawolf]

I get most of my supplies from here http://www.tcwo.com

 

the prices are good, and if you check in the motherboard bundles section you can find cpu and mb bundles for a good price.

[PG_Raptor]

So what is a good MB for overclocking?

 

Ok, now I''m confused... I thought, in RAM, that the PC**** was the transfer rate... but now I'm seeing PC3200 400MHz??? what does the 3200 mean then? Ahh! I thought I knew about computers!! :o

Edited November 20, 2003 by PG_Raptor

[+BUFF]

Hi,

 

Are we to assume that you have a case, decent PSU, floppy & an OS?

 

I think that you are going to find it hard for your budget to get what you ideally want (a 2.8C P4 is $285 on its own).

From what you are saying sounds like you want to go Intel whereas AMD is the "bang for the buck" builders choice.

You should care what rpm hard drive you get & go 7200rpm.

An 80Gb HD will cost you like an extra $10 over a 40GB so you ought to go bigger.

2 Sticks of RAM will give you Dual Channel= extra performance.

There is virtually no difference pricewise between PC2700 & 3200 so get 3200.

 

Prices from newegg.com

 

Intel system:

ABIT IS7 with 865 chipset $101

Intel 2.4C 800FSB Retail $184

Corsair VS PC3200 RAM 2x256MB $90

Sapphire Atlantis 9600Pro $149

WD 80Gb 2Mb cache 7200rpm $69

Total $593

 

AMD System:

ABIT NF7 $82 ($106 for NF7-S, $115 for AN7)

AMD XP2500+ retail $90

Corsair VS PC3200 RAM 2x256MB $90

Sapphire Atlantis 9600Pro $149

WD 80Gb 2Mb cache 7200rpm $69

Total $480

 

Both boards/CPU's should overclock happily to 3000/3200 level.

If you go AMD I would recommend spending some of the savings on getting the better board - AN7 if you can.

Again if you go AMD you might want to get a 9600XT & free HL2 for an extra $30.

An 8MB cache WD 80Gb 7200rpm would cost an extra $13

Edited November 21, 2003 by BUFF

[+Fates]

BUFF.....

 

Abit = headache , just ask quite a few people. But that's a discussion for when Beer gets back in town ;)

 

There may be no difference price wise between PC2700 and 3200 but check your motherboards acceptance of such RAM. I found that my older A7v8x would take up to 3200 but only in 1 slot. Thus it was better for me to run 2700 so I could utilize more slots.

 

Anyway, PGRaptor...Buff does have a point that if you want to stay in the price range with those specs, you may be foolin yourself. I think the ultimate goal is PERFORMANCE and not NUMBERS.

 

For example...if an AMD 2400 (1.9 Mhz) outperforms a Pentium (2.5Mhz) and cost $150 less....then...it's a no brainer.

 

My only recommendation is ASUS mobo's and AMD processors. The Radeon is definately the way to go these days.

 

CHeers!

 

Fates

[+BUFF]

Hi Fates B)

 

Abit = headache , just ask quite a few people. But that's a discussion for when Beer gets back in town

 

Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion & having had 2 ASUS boards previously I am a now an ABIT convert :)

My NF7-S is the best board that I have ever owned & it's rock solid even heavily overclocked.

I don't think that there is any doubt that the NF7-S V2.0 up until now is the overclockers nForce2 board although the A7N8X series are fine boards.

Most of the problems that people have are common to the chipset rather than ABIT's particular implementation.

 

ABIT's may have a few quirks but the IS7 is hard to beat performance wise at that price point.(Alternative for FATES :P, ASUS P4P800 $111)

to quote Hardocp' s latest test of an ABIT AI7 (which would be an excellent contender but it's $125):

"Once again we have taken an ABIT board out of the box and run it at stock and overclocked speeds with aggressive memory settings virtually error free. Actually, outside of pushing the board beyond the MHz mentioned above, there were no failures. Over 100 repetitions of Winstone testing revealed no weaknesses."

 

 

There may be no difference price wise between PC2700 and 3200 but check your motherboards acceptance of such RAM. I found that my older A7v8x would take up to 3200 but only in 1 slot. Thus it was better for me to run 2700 so I could utilize more slots.

Shouldn't be a problem on a new board & if he wants to get all the benefit from an 800FSB P4 or overclock an Athlon he should get PC3200.

[PG_Raptor]

Are we to assume that you have a case, decent PSU, floppy & an OS?

 

Yes, good assumption, I have all of those.

 

From what you are saying sounds like you want to go Intel whereas AMD is the "bang for the buck" builders choice.

 

I don't have much experience with AMD processors. All I know is that 2400 = 1.9 GHz, which, to me, means a slower processor. I've also heard that they can't keep up with Intel in the the power race, but I guess that's just high end processors.

 

You should care what rpm hard drive you get & go 7200rpm. An 80Gb HD will cost you like an extra $10 over a 40GB so you ought to go bigger.

 

I guess I was figuring everyone would just choose a 7200 hard drive anyways, lol. As for the HD size, I don't know why I'd need more than 40, but than again, I didn't think I'd need the 20 that I currently am using... HA! so yeah, 80 is good.

 

2 Sticks of RAM will give you Dual Channel= extra performance.  There is virtually no difference pricewise between PC2700 & 3200 so get 3200.

 

Makes sense again. I'll take your advice on that.

 

As for those prices, you can look on pricewatch.com, they have some of that stuff a lot cheaper than that. (even newegg has some specials there) However, some companies don't seem to show everything in their advertising...

 

That tcwo.com site that was stated earlier seems to have good pricing, ASUS A7V8X-X W/XP2600+/FAN for $200. or a 2500 for $185.

 

And as for the video card, I'll use a 9700 Pro, which, right now, is $250. So lets see...

 

ASUS A7V8X-X + XP2600 (only 333 FSB?) = $197

Corsair VS PC3200 RAM 2x256MB = $90

ATI OEM Radeon 9700 Pro = $249

WD 80Gb 2Mb cache 7200rpm = $69

Total = $605 (hehe, breaking my own rules)

 

So, this brings me to a few questions.

 

How big of a deal is FSB? I would assume a jump from 333 to 865 would be a big deal?

 

What could one overclock a 9600 Pro to (without too much extra cooling)? or perhaps a 9500?

 

Last one: should I wait for the 64 bit processors to come down in price first, and get one later?

 

So, any more suggestions?

[+pcpilot]

PG, personally I wouldnt wait for the 64 bit stuff. Its still gonna be awhile before microsoft has a OS that fully utilizes 64 bit. And the same can be said for the software like games. Games will move quickly I think. Its kind of the cutting edge for advances in technology. But you can get into a good 32 bit system for reasonably cheap now, why wait? When more use is made of 64 bit technology and the price for the 64 bit CPU's, their needed RAM, and MoBo's moderates, then maybe go for it. I'd say another 2 years give or take.

I dont worry too much personally about being at the cutting edge, I dont have the money. The question you asked above originally is the same thing Im thinking of doing. Im gonna go with a Intel chipset based MoBo, likely from MSI, with an 800mhz FSB, that'll take a 2.4ghz and up CPU. Ive seen them that will start with a slower cpu like 2.4 and take a high end one like 3.2. I like that. I can afford the 2.4's right now, they are cheap. When I can afford the 3.2, Ill get one. The intel chipset isnt the fastest, but its darn reliable and rock solid and can be over-clocked if your into that, which Im not.

Throw in the new Sound Blaster Audigy2, a Radeon 9800 pro, a gig of RAM (in two sticks), and a fast Western Digital or Seagate UDMA (7200rpm w/8mb cache) hard drive, and you'll be gaming just as slick as any of these other "go fast" guys... ;)

 

PS. Im not a big AMD guy personally, but I have put together several AMD machines for freinds. Everyone of them are as easy as any pentium based machine to do and are just as reliable. If you want to go that route, they are a bit cheaper, though not much, and are definately faster with the right RAM and MoBo.

Edited November 21, 2003 by pcpilot

[+BUFF]

All I know is that 2400 = 1.9 GHz, which, to me, means a slower processor.

 

But they do more instructions per cycle to compensate .

Intel is going to have the same problem promoting its next generation - clockspeed wise they won't be any faster than the current range.

 

I've also heard that they can't keep up with Intel in the the power race, but I guess that's just high end processors

Traditionally, they have both had different areas where they were stronger - AMD better at pure calculation /office whereas Intel better for video etc.

Up until Intel introduced the C core with 800FSB it was neck & neck, perhaps even AMD nudging ahead. Since then Intel has been in front, however the new AMD64's seem to be blowing P4's away although they are currently dear.

 

 

 

And as for the video card, I'll use a 9700 Pro, which, right now, is $250.

You can get a 9800 non Pro (don't get an SE) for $263 - its clockspeeds are the same as a 9700 Pro but has the improved GPU & will probably overclock more than the 9700 Pro.

 

ASUS A7V8X-X + XP2600 (only 333 FSB?) = $197

(my original suggestion was $172 & if we are overclocking the fact that its an XP2500 makes no difference. Also, check if that XP2600 is a Thoroughbred or Barton (better) core.)

I wouldn't get an A7V8X series, an A7V600 maybe,but ideally you want an nForce2 based board which on ASUS means A7N8X series.

The A7N8X-X doen't have dual channel, the A7N8X has dual channel & basic features with the A7N8X DeLuxe adding firewire/SATA RAID & a very good onboard sound solution. If you get an A7N8X or A7N8X DeLuxe make sure that you get a rev. 2.

 

 

 

How big of a deal is FSB? I would assume a jump from 333 to 865 would be a big deal?

 

Yes, it makes a difference which is why when you are overclocking it is better to run a higher FSB & lower multiplier.

However, on an Athlon going over 400FSB (which is why I recommend the nForce2 boards) the CPU can't really use the extra bandwidth whereas a P4 can. Hence why Intel regained the lead when they went to 800FSB.

 

What could one overclock a 9600 Pro to (without too much extra cooling)? or perhaps a 9500?

Haven't a clue & it will vary card to card, checkout some reviews & the best ATI forums I know of are at Rage3d.com

 

Last one: should I wait for the 64 bit processors to come down in price first, and get one later?

 

With the rate of change in PC technology there is always something better just around the corner.

You should be aware that the Athlon XP & the current P4 are at the end of their development lives. Although they will be around for a while yet, 32-3400 level will be the highest that we officially see.

Their replacements are moving to new sockets & require new boards plus from about Spring'04 there is going to be a move towards a redesign of case/mobo layouts, PCI Express is coming & possibly 64-bit computing for general use.

In other words, the next 7-8 months are going to see a lot of fundamental changes.

 

I don't know your current specs & I don't know if you feel that it is currently struggling.

What I am saying is that you can upgrade now to a not quite cutting edge system but that will handle everything that you can currently throw at it knowing that the potential for future upgrade is going to be relatively limited or wait until next summer to get onto the bottom rung of the next generation which should give you upgradeability for a few years.

 

Whew! :o

Edited November 21, 2003 by BUFF

[PG_Raptor]

Ok, thanks guys. I think what I'll end up doing is waiting till I go to college (next spring) before i get a new computer, for two reasons. 1. My dad probably won't let me buy a new one here at home anyways, and 2. I should have more money by then (scholarships are a godsend!)

 

As for my current specs:

P4 1.7 (I don't know the motherboard model number, but I think its ASUS)

384 Mb PC133 RAM

Nvidia Vanta 16Mb

18.6 / 6.8 GB HDs

 

So, until then, I'll just have to fly LOMAC with black planes, buildings and trees, and an invisible ground ;) Oh well, it'll still be fun!

 

Thanks again!