Finally Got in

[Over50 0]

Hi Over 50;

Yep, ALL other programs running absolutely fine....I mean I am playing COD5 while talking on Teamspeak, running Fltsim9 without a stutter, Frontline, Fuel of War, DCS Black Shark Helo sim, and sometimes with even SKYPE working in the background. Go figure?

 

at 1280x1024 32bit 75 hertz

 

I just happen to run across this doing a search for CFS3 crashes. You might give it a try and see what happens..

Edited March 20, 2009 by Over50

[almccoyjr 7]

Still going to wager any amount that, ultimately, this has to do with memory - not the modules themselves (they were swapped, as I recall). Rather, the BIOS settings that have to do with timing(s) and FSB settings, etc. for memory.

 

Why do I believe this? Well, because I've experienced precisely the same problem - with SLI/without, after swapping not 1 but 2 sets of (different brands) memory, different video cards, 2 power supplies - the whole gamut of stuff that's been tried/recommended here. I keep lots of parts and build PC's, so having parts to swap around helps. But no matter what I threw at it, nothing seemed to do the trick.

 

Yes, it behaved like heat somewhat (happened after a period of time), and only happening in OFF while other games worked fine (although it had also occurred at other times, each time in only one game).

 

Someone suggested setting BIOS to default; might not be a bad idea to try that (if you didn't; I admittedly have skipped a lot in this thread). If you take the time to record settings before changing anything, worse case you can put it all back and you're no worse off. Focus on the memory settings, keeping in mind that what a machine detects 'automatically' may or may not work. These things were all mentioned at points, but then got displaced by other ideas - so I'm thinking none of them were ever actually tried.

 

Something else I noticed - you have 4 sticks of memory - I know you changed memory, don't recall if you had 4 sticks previously. As a test, you should really try only two at a time, and make darn sure they are placed in the two same-color slots, starting at the slot closest to the CPU. (Running memory in 4 slots and/or in the colored pair that starts second from the CPU has definitely caused the same sort of corruption/lock-ups you report). On my 780i board - same as yours, I think, it fails to boot if I put the 2 sticks I have in the slots farthest from the CPU.

 

When I used 4 modules (same ratings) I experienced the little funny-colored squares around certain screen elements, graphics corruption-kind of thing you've seen. I thought heat and video cards, too - nope! It was a memory problem. Back to basics; took 2 sticks (of 4) out, put the BIOS settings back to lowest (800MHz, even though memory itself was rated PC2-8500 or 1066MHz). It worked.

 

Understand that, even with PC2-8500 memory, the JDEC SPD (not short for 'speed' like most think, it's actually 'serial presence detect') is ONLY 800MHz (PC2-6400); the higher settings are 'EPP' (Enhanced Performance Profile or some such) for memory that is supposed to be certified to run faster. Some BIOS will automatically set to the EPP settings, and even though the memory's in perfect working order and rated to run at 1066 FSB, it just won't. And I learned this while running OFF (or, more accurately, watching OFF crash a lot *lol*) Finally set memory FSB back down to 800, non-SLI enabled, and it works like a charm. (I've since learned I can bump it up to around 935 without trouble - but it won't run at the rated 1066 FSB for anything).

 

Excellent advice. Before I made the decision to go 64 and 2 x 4, I went back to EVGA to go over 680i ram compatiblity at 1066. I then sought advice from the Corsair Tech Guru regarding running ram locked @ 1066, no fsb bump and X6800 multiplyer with with cpu voltage only. He said I shouldn't experience any problems "out of the ordinary" i.e., test first then play. So it'll be a long weekend with memtest, orthos then prime with swapping ram in and out. A couple of days on the front end=trouble free years on the backend. And if something does go bump down the road, I'll have my notes from ground zero.

 

This is turning into a really good "what if" troubleshooting discussion.

 

By the way Over50, I went over my reg b/u's looking at install-reinstall of 182.06 using DC Pro and then Driver Sweeper. Holy Moley! I could not believe the lines of crap DCP didn't even "see"! 182.06 is running just fine and no foreign gibberish.

[Over50 0]

By the way Over50, I went over my reg b/u's looking at install-reinstall of 182.06 using DC Pro and then Driver Sweeper. Holy Moley! I could not believe the lines of crap DCP didn't even "see"! 182.06 is running just fine and no foreign gibberish.

 

Yeah, I can believe it. I've been using Driver Cleaner (saved to a thumb drive while it was still freeware..) since I first learned of it way back when. And I've never had a graphics update driver issue. None. Whether this app or the more recent (and freeware) Driver Sweeper it's a good tool to use to find and remove the orphaned/leftover driver files most uninstallers leave behind.

[phantomjoker 0]

I just happen to run across this doing a search for CFS3 crashes. You might give it a try and see what happens..

 

Hi Guys. I may be quiet for a week or so as I travel to Virginia to continue filming my docu. BUT, more good suggestions..I would have to say all my RAM checks out. It shows up fine, is all identical, 40sticks, is set for default in BIOS, not overclocked. The two things that catch my attention that I haven't tried here are:

 

1.) deleting "uisel" file

2.) possible bad CFS3 disk..

 

And to answer other questions, I crashed even before the patch and I have tried it at lower resolutions and crashes too.

 

Do you think if the game runs ok for awhile before crashing, one could say the CFS3 disk is ok??? I would hate to go and buy another one if this one is ok. If it runs ok initially, does the sim keep hitting on the disk during the game as well? or just in the beginning to make sure you have the disk in and then it never checks again?

 

Steve

[almccoyjr 7]

Hi Guys. I may be quiet for a week or so as I travel to Virginia to continue filming my docu. BUT, more good suggestions..I would have to say all my RAM checks out. It shows up fine, is all identical, 40sticks, is set for default in BIOS, not overclocked. The two things that catch my attention that I haven't tried here are:

 

1.) deleting "uisel" file

2.) possible bad CFS3 disk..

 

And to answer other questions, I crashed even before the patch and I have tried it at lower resolutions and crashes too.

 

Do you think if the game runs ok for awhile before crashing, one could say the CFS3 disk is ok??? I would hate to go and buy another one if this one is ok. If it runs ok initially, does the sim keep hitting on the disk during the game as well? or just in the beginning to make sure you have the disk in and then it never checks again?

 

Steve

 

40 STICKS!!!!!!! Holey Moley! I want your mobo....hahahaha. I sure am glad someone else gets "confused" on the keyboard.

[Tamper 9]

- deleting "uisel" file: I read the thread linked about this, I don't think it's your issue. Biggest reason is that the thread describes a crash that basically occurs at a time totally different from what you see. Also, the uisel file has to do with User Interface selections (hence, 'ui sel')...your crash isn't symptomatic of User Interface Selections (menus, etc.) - it happens while running the game.

 

- possible bad disk: Maybe, but then - if I recall, you were able to play CFS3 fine before, just that OFF would crash. Now - after some change (don't recall, I think un/re-installing) you can't even play CFS3. Still, you were able to before. So, is the 'bad' disk actually changing the way it's bad? I sort of doubt it. Even if you want to rule out a bad disk, arrange to borrow one, and use your own license/PID at install; nothing wrong with that and you don't need to buy another anything. (I'll even loan you mine, if you want).

 

I urge you to reconsider the RAM. None of the things you mentioned (showing up fine, being identical, defaults set in BIOS, not overclocked) will keep you from having the issues I've seen on two different motherboards, each with the very same conditions (showing up fine, etc.).

 

You mentioned that the bad disk and the bad uisel are the only two things you haven't tried. Actually, I don't remember that you tried anything with RAM other than verify it's set for defaults and not set for SLI. (You did, I believe, buy new RAM - but even that won't get around the problems I've seen). I don't recall reading much about how the memory is set (BIOS) and I don't believe you mentioned trying alternate settings. Also, as I said, you're using 4 sticks - I don't recall your saying you tried it with only two (not one, mind you, but two, in the proper slots).

 

Not to be argumentative here, only trying to help. But I just don't think you've exhausted the biggest candidate. I run tech support for a group of about 150 techs and 90% of the problems they have trouble solving is because they overlooked something basic or assumed something - even professionals make this mistake. The very symptoms you describe, I've seen at least twice, on two different motherboards/chipsets, in two different games, and both times it came down to memory. Memory that, like yours, worked fine for any other game, and was otherwise fine for all accounts (benchmarks, Prime95 stress test, etc). Not at all saying the memory is bad - just that the settings can be 'finicky'.

 

Besides, honestly - what do you have to lose? Write the current settings down (or take digital pics) and put them back if it doesn't help. Seems a relatively small investment of time/effort when you consider everything you've already put into it here.

 

Whatever you decide to do, best of luck. I really would like to hear someday that you got this going - and what you did to get there. The enjoyment you'll get from OFF will be worth it.

Edited March 21, 2009 by Tamper

[almccoyjr 7]

- deleting "uisel" file: I read the thread linked about this, I don't think it's your issue. Biggest reason is that the thread describes a crash that basically occurs at a time totally different from what you see. Also, the uisel file has to do with User Interface selections (hence, 'ui sel')...your crash isn't symptomatic of User Interface Selections (menus, etc.) - it happens while running the game.

 

- possible bad disk: Maybe, but then - if I recall, you were able to play CFS3 fine before, just that OFF would crash. Now - after some change (don't recall, I think un/re-installing) you can't even play CFS3. Still, you were able to before. So, is the 'bad' disk actually changing the way it's bad? I sort of doubt it. Even if you want to rule out a bad disk, arrange to borrow one, and use your own license/PID at install; nothing wrong with that and you don't need to buy another anything. (I'll even loan you mine, if you want).

 

I urge you to reconsider the RAM. None of the things you mentioned (showing up fine, being identical, defaults set in BIOS, not overclocked) will keep you from having the issues I've seen on two different motherboards, each with the very same conditions (showing up fine, etc.).

 

You mentioned that the bad disk and the bad uisel are the only two things you haven't tried. Actually, I don't remember that you tried anything with RAM other than verify it's set for defaults and not set for SLI. (You did, I believe, buy new RAM - but even that won't get around the problems I've seen). I don't recall reading much about how the memory is set (BIOS) and I don't believe you mentioned trying alternate settings. Also, as I said, you're using 4 sticks - I don't recall your saying you tried it with only two (not one, mind you, but two, in the proper slots).

 

Not to be argumentative here, only trying to help. But I just don't think you've exhausted the biggest candidate. I run tech support for a group of about 150 techs and 90% of the problems they have trouble solving is because they overlooked something basic or assumed something - even professionals make this mistake. The very symptoms you describe, I've seen at least twice, on two different motherboards/chipsets, in two different games, and both times it came down to memory. Memory that, like yours, worked fine for any other game, and was otherwise fine for all accounts (benchmarks, Prime95 stress test, etc). Not at all saying the memory is bad - just that the settings can be 'finicky'.

 

Besides, honestly - what do you have to lose? Write the current settings down (or take digital pics) and put them back if it doesn't help. Seems a relatively small investment of time/effort when you consider everything you've already put into it here.

 

Whatever you decide to do, best of luck. I really would like to hear someday that you got this going - and what you did to get there. The enjoyment you'll get from OFF will be worth it.

 

Wow...At least you've given some good, hard verifiable and testable reasons for the ram. I've never had the displeasure of that type of problem thank God. I've had ram issues before, but not one so far out in left field. I would have run the "standard" tests and would have been running down the road with the tire still flat. What do you think the root cause is? Speculation, even at this point, would be welcome. Consider class in session; time to take the thinking cap off and put the learning one on.

 

Maybe we should have this moved over to BHaH General Help. It certainly qualifies.

[phantomjoker 0]

- deleting "uisel" file: I read the thread linked about this, I don't think it's your issue. Biggest reason is that the thread describes a crash that basically occurs at a time totally different from what you see. Also, the uisel file has to do with User Interface selections (hence, 'ui sel')...your crash isn't symptomatic of User Interface Selections (menus, etc.) - it happens while running the game.

 

- possible bad disk: Maybe, but then - if I recall, you were able to play CFS3 fine before, just that OFF would crash. Now - after some change (don't recall, I think un/re-installing) you can't even play CFS3. Still, you were able to before. So, is the 'bad' disk actually changing the way it's bad? I sort of doubt it. Even if you want to rule out a bad disk, arrange to borrow one, and use your own license/PID at install; nothing wrong with that and you don't need to buy another anything. (I'll even loan you mine, if you want).

 

I urge you to reconsider the RAM. None of the things you mentioned (showing up fine, being identical, defaults set in BIOS, not overclocked) will keep you from having the issues I've seen on two different motherboards, each with the very same conditions (showing up fine, etc.).

 

You mentioned that the bad disk and the bad uisel are the only two things you haven't tried. Actually, I don't remember that you tried anything with RAM other than verify it's set for defaults and not set for SLI. (You did, I believe, buy new RAM - but even that won't get around the problems I've seen). I don't recall reading much about how the memory is set (BIOS) and I don't believe you mentioned trying alternate settings. Also, as I said, you're using 4 sticks - I don't recall your saying you tried it with only two (not one, mind you, but two, in the proper slots).

 

Not to be argumentative here, only trying to help. But I just don't think you've exhausted the biggest candidate. I run tech support for a group of about 150 techs and 90% of the problems they have trouble solving is because they overlooked something basic or assumed something - even professionals make this mistake. The very symptoms you describe, I've seen at least twice, on two different motherboards/chipsets, in two different games, and both times it came down to memory. Memory that, like yours, worked fine for any other game, and was otherwise fine for all accounts (benchmarks, Prime95 stress test, etc). Not at all saying the memory is bad - just that the settings can be 'finicky'.

 

Besides, honestly - what do you have to lose? Write the current settings down (or take digital pics) and put them back if it doesn't help. Seems a relatively small investment of time/effort when you consider everything you've already put into it here.

 

Whatever you decide to do, best of luck. I really would like to hear someday that you got this going - and what you did to get there. The enjoyment you'll get from OFF will be worth it.

 

Hey I tried my "40" sticks of RAM didn't I? hahahaha. What a typo that was. The RAM tests that I did with my old RAM before buying the new "4" sticks of 1GIG Ram were to run each stick alone in each of my slots..crash crash crash. Then I tried them as a pair in combinations of slots..crash crash crash. Then I bought the new RAM and ran a pair in the same two slots..crash and then in another two slots...crash, then I popped in all 4..crash..Lots of frustrating testing. Ram shows up fine and runs well in other sims. Ok folks, off to VA for filming...BTW, if any of you are interested in war documentary films. My film's official web site went up today. It is powmiafilm..Hope that doesn't break any rules here about listing sites. I just thought since we are on a military sim site of historical nature, it may be of interest to some of you. Traveling with 9 cases of equipment, plus jib cranes, tripods, assistant, 4 days of travel to film what will ultimately end up as about 30 seconds of footage in the film...Now I know why Hollywood films are so expensive..They are a lot of work for sure.

[Tamper 9]

Wow...At least you've given some good, hard verifiable and testable reasons for the ram. I've never had the displeasure of that type of problem thank God. I've had ram issues before, but not one so far out in left field. I would have run the "standard" tests and would have been running down the road with the tire still flat. What do you think the root cause is? Speculation, even at this point, would be welcome. Consider class in session; time to take the thinking cap off and put the learning one on.

 

Maybe we should have this moved over to BHaH General Help. It certainly qualifies.

 

To be honest, I don't know what the root cause is. I'm still working on it - though, truthfully, once I got things situated where I could actually play a game *lol* I wasn't terribly anxious to start with the 'joys of trial and error' again. As you might imagine, it's frustrating to deal with a problem like this. Even though I do enjoy working on PCs, I also enjoy being able to use the things :)

 

What I can tell you is that my personal machine is a 780i MB, which supports 1066 memory, and I use 2x 1G Corsair Dominator PC2-8500 sticks. Upon setting it up, as always, the first few hours were testing: SiSoft Sandra, Prime95, CPU-Z, CoreTemp, et al, just to see that everything is in order. Now, admittedly, I do overclock - but before anyone freaks out, realize I always start at defaults and return to them when there's trouble. Read on.

 

Anyway, at the end of the whole utilities exercise, everything seems happy - so on to the games. CFS3/OFF runs without incident, check. Another graphically intensive game I run is Age of Empires 3. Now, keep in mind, this setup has already passed the utilities run, and shows no sign of instability at this point. When I ran AoE3, crash, crash, crash. (A lot like Joker, huh?). Adjust this and that over the next few hours; finally figure out that my memory - at the rated FSB speed - causes this crash. Even once I put everything back to defaults, so there's NO overclocking, CPU or memory. Eventually, I've settled on 930 FSB (which is technically 'underclocked' on this board and with this memory). As I said above, I have left things there for now, because a. I got kind of tired of screwing with it for now - nothing I could think of helped, and b. I just wanted to use the thing for a change :)

 

So, there's one example. Also, on this machine, prior to changing the motherboard, I had a similar situation, with similar components - and also eventually wound up "underclocking" the memory back to around 935. The main difference(s) were different motherboard and memory, and that it was OFF at the time that I couldn't get to run (same exact symptoms - again, a lot like Joker, huh?)

 

So, that's two examples. It's worth noting that, in both cases, the 'freezing/crashing/lockup' showed symptoms such as graphics corruption and/or sound 'sticking' (frozen/stuttering) such that I associated it with a heat, bad video card(s), sound card, or a driver. Nope, none of the above. All of them are fine, if I just keep the memory turned down. I've also relaxed the timings a bit, just as part of troubleshooting. (Again, I need to do some more work on it, because I could probably zero it in more, but it's definitely and directly a product of memory settings).

 

Far as speculation...well, it is just that at this point. What I found interesting is that, in the BIOS, setting 'auto' does NOT set this memory for 1066 - fact, neither motherboard's BIOS did, for either of two different brands PC2-8500 memory. It always wanted to set default at 800. And, after studying this a bit, I found out about the JDEC vs. EPP 'ratings' on the PC2-8500 memory. In my case, even though the EPP for memory is 533 (1066), the JDEC rating still shows as 400 (800) FSB. I attached some pics here to show this. So, am I 'overcloking' 800MHz memory, or 'underclocking' 1066 memory? Apparently, it depends (*ughh*)

 

I haven't really finished trying to determine why this is, or how to (maybe) overcome it - but, my speculation is that the memory is basically 800 that is rated to run at 1066. But, since the motherboard manufacturers don't make the memory - and memory manufacturers don't make the motherboards, it seems they'll all say "It should work", but they won't accept responsibility if it doesn't. I've read a bit, but I could easily be missing one simple, crucial piece of info I just haven't come across yet. Regardless, like I said - once I got it stable, I've left it, at least for now.

 

Edit: Another reason I left it as is, is that after repeating the benchmarks, there's almost no difference in running it at 1066 - where one game will crash, and at 930, where the same game seems happy

 

These experiences are what leads me to believe there may be a similar issue with Joker's setup. Even if not, it's remarkably similar in behavior.

 

I welcome any thoughts/comments.

Edited March 22, 2009 by Tamper

[phantomjoker 0]

To be honest, I don't know what the root cause is. I'm still working on it - though, truthfully, once I got things situated where I could actually play a game *lol* I wasn't terribly anxious to start with the 'joys of trial and error' again. As you might imagine, it's frustrating to deal with a problem like this. Even though I do enjoy working on PCs, I also enjoy being able to use the things :)

 

What I can tell you is that my personal machine is a 780i MB, which supports 1066 memory, and I use 2x 1G Corsair Dominator PC2-8500 sticks. Upon setting it up, as always, the first few hours were testing: SiSoft Sandra, Prime95, CPU-Z, CoreTemp, et al, just to see that everything is in order. Now, admittedly, I do overclock - but before anyone freaks out, realize I always start at defaults and return to them when there's trouble. Read on.

 

Anyway, at the end of the whole utilities exercise, everything seems happy - so on to the games. CFS3/OFF runs without incident, check. Another graphically intensive game I run is Age of Empires 3. Now, keep in mind, this setup has already passed the utilities run, and shows no sign of instability at this point. When I ran AoE3, crash, crash, crash. (A lot like Joker, huh?). Adjust this and that over the next few hours; finally figure out that my memory - at the rated FSB speed - causes this crash. Even once I put everything back to defaults, so there's NO overclocking, CPU or memory. Eventually, I've settled on 930 FSB (which is technically 'underclocked' on this board and with this memory). As I said above, I have left things there for now, because a. I got kind of tired of screwing with it for now - nothing I could think of helped, and b. I just wanted to use the thing for a change :)

 

So, there's one example. Also, on this machine, prior to changing the motherboard, I had a similar situation, with similar components - and also eventually wound up "underclocking" the memory back to around 935. The main difference(s) were different motherboard and memory, and that it was OFF at the time that I couldn't get to run (same exact symptoms - again, a lot like Joker, huh?)

 

So, that's two examples. It's worth noting that, in both cases, the 'freezing/crashing/lockup' showed symptoms such as graphics corruption and/or sound 'sticking' (frozen/stuttering) such that I associated it with a heat, bad video card(s), sound card, or a driver. Nope, none of the above. All of them are fine, if I just keep the memory turned down. I've also relaxed the timings a bit, just as part of troubleshooting. (Again, I need to do some more work on it, because I could probably zero it in more, but it's definitely and directly a product of memory settings).

 

Far as speculation...well, it is just that at this point. What I found interesting is that, in the BIOS, setting 'auto' does NOT set this memory for 1066 - fact, neither motherboard's BIOS did, for either of two different brands PC2-8500 memory. It always wanted to set default at 800. And, after studying this a bit, I found out about the JDEC vs. EPP 'ratings' on the PC2-8500 memory. In my case, even though the EPP for memory is 533 (1066), the JDEC rating still shows as 400 (800) FSB. I attached some pics here to show this. So, am I 'overcloking' 800MHz memory, or 'underclocking' 1066 memory? Apparently, it depends (*ughh*)

 

I haven't really finished trying to determine why this is, or how to (maybe) overcome it - but, my speculation is that the memory is basically 800 that is rated to run at 1066. But, since the motherboard manufacturers don't make the memory - and memory manufacturers don't make the motherboards, it seems they'll all say "It should work", but they won't accept responsibility if it doesn't. I've read a bit, but I could easily be missing one simple, crucial piece of info I just haven't come across yet. Regardless, like I said - once I got it stable, I've left it, at least for now.

 

Edit: Another reason I left it as is, is that after repeating the benchmarks, there's almost no difference in running it at 1066 - where one game will crash, and at 930, where the same game seems happy

 

These experiences are what leads me to believe there may be a similar issue with Joker's setup. Even if not, it's remarkably similar in behavior.

 

I welcome any thoughts/comments.

 

 

Tamper...Real good info:

Here is my RAM

http://www.mushkin.com/doc/products/memory_detail.asp?id=519

 

Since we have the same motherboard, I would really appreciate some information if you have the time, on how to set up the RAM to be more stable in your opinion. I am really not the knowledgeble as far as tweaking the settings of RAM, in the BIOS. I can get to BIOS and change stuff etc. but don't really understand what all the numbers indicate..If you can make some suggestions, I will try them in a week when I return from my location shoot. Thanks buddy.

Steve

[Tamper 9]

Tamper...Real good info:

Here is my RAM

http://www.mushkin.com/doc/products/memory_detail.asp?id=519

 

Since we have the same motherboard, I would really appreciate some information if you have the time, on how to set up the RAM to be more stable in your opinion. I am really not the knowledgeble as far as tweaking the settings of RAM, in the BIOS. I can get to BIOS and change stuff etc. but don't really understand what all the numbers indicate..If you can make some suggestions, I will try them in a week when I return from my location shoot. Thanks buddy.

Steve

 

 

Sure, I'll try: One thing - just to confirm, my board is an eVGA 780i FTW, and yours? (Probably only slight differences in BIOS, with the same 780i chipset, but thought I'd ask).

 

What I'd be most curious about is the memory settings. Generally, this accounts for three things:

 

- Voltages (this would include those for other system components, such as the "NorthBridge", or - to Nvidia - the "SPP" (website lists your memory as 2.1-2.2V)

- Front Side Bus (FSB) speed setting, in MHz; yours should be 800.

- The memory 'timings'; generally these numbers are included with the memory (website lists yours as '4-5-4-11' - these are pretty tight timings, actually)

 

Most often in my experience whatever 'tweaking' can be done will involve one/all of these three. And, just so you know, we're not talking about doing anything for the sake of increasing performance (i.e. 'overclocking'). Adjusting these BIOS settings isn't necessarily always about overclocking. What we're interested in here is sort of the opposite of overclocking; it's about stability. Oddly enough, this is always a part of overclocking, because fast isn't worth a darn if it's unstable.

 

Note that these things usually aren't necessary unless a system is overclocked, but never say always. I'm listing some things here because a. we don't as yet know what your BIOS settings are; b. something may be set by default that just won't work.

 

Some examples of things that often increase stability (in no specific order):

 

- increasing (in tiny increments) the voltages. Usually reserved for pretty jacked up overclocking; the system's components require more voltage to run at higher speeds. Bad side effect is heat.

- FSB settings. Easiest way to fiddle around with settings; not likely to cause many problems unless set to extremes, but you need to be familiar with the range(s) of the applicable extremes.

- Timings (sometimes called 'latency') Tons of theory about this on the web. Basically, lower latency = faster memory. But, in terms of overall system performance, we're talking pretty small differences. Usually 'relaxed' as other settings are increased for overclocking. "Relaxing" is to slow down the timings; 'tight' is the opposite of 'relaxed'. As above, your memory boasts some pretty tight timings, I'm wondering if that might not be a good place to start - but, without knowing more about your current settings, it's very speculative. Not usually good to guess a lot.

 

First thing I'd do is look at what's already set up, take the time to note everything as is, and then look for anything obviously out of whack. Is it possible you could post BIOS screens here?

 

If nothing seems obviously wrong, then you can try slowing things down a bit to see if it helps. Honestly, the most frustrating part of this is the absolute 'trial and error' nature of it...and there's really no way around it. Some prefer to go at a goal in small increments, stopping when they hit snags; others prefer to set things to extremes and then back off that until things are stable. (I know this sounds a lot like overclocking, but it's not; essentially you're using the same methodology as in overclocking but with different results as a goal).

 

And, just for the purposes of your testing, I'd take 2 modules out and only leave 2 in. (In the simplest of terms, this is about reducing variables).

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Also, does he have the latest BIOS for his motherboard? MB manufacturer's sometimes release updated BIOS for their motherboards that fix odd problems. He should check eVGA's website.

 

I agree about the memory timings. My memory (DDR 1) is rated to run at 8-4-4-1, and it works fine for most programs, except OFF. For OFF, I have to leave my memory at 8-4-4-2.

 

I suggested to Joker that he set his BIOS to default, but he never indicated if he did or not. Probably a little wary of screwing something up. He should be okay if he just follows a few precautions, like writing down his current settings and only doing things one step at a time.

 

Don't worry, Joker. We've got your back!

[Tamper 9]

Also, does he have the latest BIOS for his motherboard? MB manufacturer's sometimes release updated BIOS for their motherboards that fix odd problems. He should check eVGA's website.

 

Agreed, and an excellent point. I am not completely sure he is using an eVGA motherboard, though - just that he's mentioned a 780i chipset. Still, BIOS updates can fix issues like this, depending. It's at least worth checking to see what's there - whether to use updates is worth some consideration. The rule a long time ago was if there's an update, apply it. Nowadays the advice tends toward only doing updates if you have a specific problem (me - I usually try 'em anyway).

 

I agree about the memory timings. My memory (DDR 1) is rated to run at 8-4-4-1, and it works fine for most programs, except OFF. For OFF, I have to leave my memory at 8-4-4-2.

 

You don't say? Nice to know that I'm not losing my mind *lol* Seriously, it is very interesting that you've seen this sort of thing as well. Taken together your experience and mine seem to corroborate one another.

 

I suggested to Joker that he set his BIOS to default, but he never indicated if he did or not.

I don't recall seeing he did, no. As I said earlier, I think some idea(s) just got lost in the deluge. And I can certainly appreciate being wary of fiddling with things you don't understand - that's a good habit to be in! But, the trick is exactly as you said - record things first! (And never changing more than one at a time, as well - although I cannot truthfully say I never break that rule *lol*)

 

Thanks for mentioning this - seems like many here want to see this figured out :yes:

[phantomjoker 0]

Also, does he have the latest BIOS for his motherboard? MB manufacturer's sometimes release updated BIOS for their motherboards that fix odd problems. He should check eVGA's website.

 

Agreed, and an excellent point. I am not completely sure he is using an eVGA motherboard, though - just that he's mentioned a 780i chipset. Still, BIOS updates can fix issues like this, depending. It's at least worth checking to see what's there - whether to use updates is worth some consideration. The rule a long time ago was if there's an update, apply it. Nowadays the advice tends toward only doing updates if you have a specific problem (me - I usually try 'em anyway).

 

I agree about the memory timings. My memory (DDR 1) is rated to run at 8-4-4-1, and it works fine for most programs, except OFF. For OFF, I have to leave my memory at 8-4-4-2.

 

You don't say? Nice to know that I'm not losing my mind *lol* Seriously, it is very interesting that you've seen this sort of thing as well. Taken together your experience and mine seem to corroborate one another.

 

I suggested to Joker that he set his BIOS to default, but he never indicated if he did or not.

I don't recall seeing he did, no. As I said earlier, I think some idea(s) just got lost in the deluge. And I can certainly appreciate being wary of fiddling with things you don't understand - that's a good habit to be in! But, the trick is exactly as you said - record things first! (And never changing more than one at a time, as well - although I cannot truthfully say I never break that rule *lol*)

 

Thanks for mentioning this - seems like many here want to see this figured out :yes:

 

 

Hey folks...Checking in here from Virginia where I am filming my docu. Will be back to New England in a few days and will address all the BIOS issues and report more specifics here..I can say from memory though that my motherboard is indeed an eVga. See

'ya all" in a few days.

"ya all" the southern dialect is rubbing off on me already....when I speak down here they look at me like I have three heads..hahaha

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

"Away down South in the land of cotton...."

[Tamper 9]

On the subject of timings - The slower memory speeds (in Joker's case, PC2-6400 or 800MHz; in HerrPW's case DDR1) generally will run stable at tighter memory timings, as I understand it. In fact, it seems I've read that DDR2 memory's higher speed is offset (somewhat) in higher latencies. To 'compete' with DDR, given its higher latencies, DDR2 actually must run at a higher speed, else it wouldn't be "faster" (performance-wise). When DDR2 was still first being developed, it didn't compete well with DDR, because the latencies were still high enough that even doubling the speed didn't make up for it. As the chips improved, the latencies came down, and - combined with the higher clocks speeds - overall performance improved.

 

Kinda confusing, sort of (but not really), but that's what I understand, anyway.

 

For example:

 

HPW's (DDR1) supports timings at 8-4-4-1

Joker's PC2-6400 (DDR2) timings are '4-5-4-11' (only slightly tighter than HPW's, and that, I suspect, because it's a good deal newer).

My PC2-8500 timings are rated 5-5-5-15 - compared to Joker's, more 'relaxed', even though my memory runs at a faster clock rate. And I'm actually running at 5-6-6-21, after relaxing mine during my testing.

 

The settings I'm currently using are above in the images I posted, as are the "SPD" for both JDEC and EPP timings.

 

Joker, if you can get/run CPU-Z (www.cpuid.com) it will report all these timings. Easier than BIOS screens but to be thorough we should still look at other BIOS settings as well.

 

Finally, I wanted to mention that there's not really a 'right' answer in this case. The rated speeds don't always work, sometimes people get away with increasing speeds by relaxing timings, and whether/how much relaxing helps still seems largely a matter of individual components and good old trial-and-error *uggh* As above, what matters is stability.

[almccoyjr 7]

On the subject of timings - The slower memory speeds (in Joker's case, PC2-6400 or 800MHz; in HerrPW's case DDR1) generally will run stable at tighter memory timings, as I understand it. In fact, it seems I've read that DDR2 memory's higher speed is offset (somewhat) in higher latencies. To 'compete' with DDR, given its higher latencies, DDR2 actually must run at a higher speed, else it wouldn't be "faster" (performance-wise). When DDR2 was still first being developed, it didn't compete well with DDR, because the latencies were still high enough that even doubling the speed didn't make up for it. As the chips improved, the latencies came down, and - combined with the higher clocks speeds - overall performance improved.

 

Kinda confusing, sort of (but not really), but that's what I understand, anyway.

 

For example:

 

HPW's (DDR1) supports timings at 8-4-4-1

Joker's PC2-6400 (DDR2) timings are '4-5-4-11' (only slightly tighter than HPW's, and that, I suspect, because it's a good deal newer).

My PC2-8500 timings are rated 5-5-5-15 - compared to Joker's, more 'relaxed', even though my memory runs at a faster clock rate. And I'm actually running at 5-6-6-21, after relaxing mine during my testing.

 

The settings I'm currently using are above in the images I posted, as are the "SPD" for both JDEC and EPP timings.

 

Joker, if you can get/run CPU-Z (www.cpuid.com) it will report all these timings. Easier than BIOS screens but to be thorough we should still look at other BIOS settings as well.

 

Finally, I wanted to mention that there's not really a 'right' answer in this case. The rated speeds don't always work, sometimes people get away with increasing speeds by relaxing timings, and whether/how much relaxing helps still seems largely a matter of individual components and good old trial-and-error *uggh* As above, what matters is stability.

 

Depending upon the timings being "loose" or "tighter", you may have to nudge the voltage in order to stablize tighter settings. On the 780i, that won't be an issue since the memory controller is more robust. On my 680i, I have to stay away from 2.2 because the memory controller's design is weak and higher voltages will deteriorate it. So I find the fastest memory that's been tested for my board and try to keep it at 1.855-1.975. I'm not even comfortable running at the rated 2.1 with the history the board has had. But hey, I got serial #3 and she's been rock solid. The only ctd or bsod's I've had are my or software's fault.

 

P08 is current 780i bios for EVGA; P33 for my 680i.

[Tamper 9]

"Depending upon the timings being "loose" or "tighter", you may have to nudge the voltage in order to stablize tighter settings. "

 

It is often necessary to adjust the voltages when overclocking, but I just want to point out here that (what I believe) we're working towards is actually more akin to 'underclocking' (I'm not even sure the term exists *lol*). Joker seems - and many like him often are - concerned about overclocking; they'd rather not take any risks. And it's a perfectly well-taken point; you and I might not mind the risks (whatever they may be) but it's not for everyone.

 

I am hesitant to treat this case specifically as if we're overclocking, because it seems wiser to avoid the impression that's anything like what we're doing. I prefer to say we're "using the same methodology" but for different results - opposite results, in fact. It's more about people's comfort level, really.

 

To that end, I don't think voltage settings will enter into it. In my own experience the voltage settings are normally only necessary when you're "committed" to overclocking, and even then the heat issue starts to become more of a concern. Get started explaining all this to people who aren't comfortable, they tend to freak and just say "Forget the whole thing" *lol* If we're being totally honest, I think that may have had to do with Joker's initial hesitance to get into BIOS and memory settings to begin with.

 

Of the three things I mentioned that apply to memory settings, I try to recommend that voltage(s) should be the last thing you change - and only then if you're committed to it, and you understand the consequences.

 

Still, in this case, I believe it may only involve very small changes to the timings - there are at least two experiences related above that are similar - just enough to stabilize things. I'm thinking it may take only one step off what his current timings are to get it to behave (like what HPW related).

 

As an aside, I'm interested in what you mentioned about the eVGA memory controllers on the 680/780 chipsets...can you share whatever references you've seen? I'd like to read up on that more, myself :yes:

[almccoyjr 7]

As an aside, I'm interested in what you mentioned about the eVGA memory controllers on the 680/780 chipsets...can you share whatever references you've seen? I'd like to read up on that more, myself :yes:

 

EVGA.com

 

When I was doing the "research" comparing AMD x 2 and Core2 Duo, the 680i had been out for just a little while. A freind of mine in Kansas had several of the new 680i's and I got sn#3. I didn't have the TIM problems others were finding out and later discussing.

 

I belive it was Corsair that diagnosed the MC problem, linking it back to 2.1+ 2.25 that would crap out controller, memory, slots or all!

 

Except for PS/2 mouse problem, ram voltage was the main issue. The MC problems when starting to deteriorate, led to vdroop anomolies and subsequent questions about caps and vcontrol circuit. Later, I compared the caps on my board with a couple of others at a local shop waiting on rma's on found that my caps were different. After that, I was able to confirm that I had a Nvidia reference board.

 

The 750i's addressed some of the MC issues along with caps and the 780i uses newer MC design and silicon. I don't know about the caps.

 

Our boards are remarkedly similar. Your MC is totally updated and you've got 200 chip for for much faster pci-e protocals.

 

I also have to really tweak my board to sustain 1333. I did it once when burning everything in but I keep her now 266 x 4. When I get my 4gb x 2 and reinstall XP64, I'm going to take her back up to 3.45. That's about as high as I can go with volltage bump and multiplier only without messing around with fsb.

[Tamper 9]

Fascinating. I appreciate your telling me about it. My board is actually a 780iFTW - I wonder if the same applies to it as the 780i boards? I actually trained on electronics in the Navy, quite a lot - went to their best school in fact, but that was a long time ago and I am usually victim of being lazy...if I have to start doing all that math again, screw it, I'll just buy something different *lol* I do know that the newer boards make a big deal about using solid caps and other design improvements - which actually makes sense, based on the formal training I've had. People ("enthusiasts", I think we're called) do know a lot about this stuff because we're constantly jacking things up faster and faster, expecting more and more performance. Drives the market harder to make better products. *lmao* Years ago, no one thought much about the caps.

 

The 1333 thing - you know, I had an Asus board based on the 680i. That thing was squirrely as all hell about memory beyond 800MHz, and though it handled the C2D 8400 (1333FSB) well enough, I only ever got the CPU up to 3.6G (1600). But the 780iFTW board, same exact physical CPU I can get to 1700 (3.83G) without a lot of heroics. To be honest, I just lost patience with all the effort; I got it to 27.5% overclocked and stable, and said enough was enough (for now *lol*)

[almccoyjr 7]

Fascinating. I appreciate your telling me about it. My board is actually a 780iFTW - I wonder if the same applies to it as the 780i boards? I actually trained on electronics in the Navy, quite a lot - went to their best school in fact, but that was a long time ago and I am usually victim of being lazy...if I have to start doing all that math again, screw it, I'll just buy something different *lol* I do know that the newer boards make a big deal about using solid caps and other design improvements - which actually makes sense, based on the formal training I've had. People ("enthusiasts", I think we're called) do know a lot about this stuff because we're constantly jacking things up faster and faster, expecting more and more performance. Drives the market harder to make better products. *lmao* Years ago, no one thought much about the caps.

 

The 1333 thing - you know, I had an Asus board based on the 680i. That thing was squirrely as all hell about memory beyond 800MHz, and though it handled the C2D 8400 (1333FSB) well enough, I only ever got the CPU up to 3.6G (1600). But the 780iFTW board, same exact physical CPU I can get to 1700 (3.83G) without a lot of heroics. To be honest, I just lost patience with all the effort; I got it to 27.5% overclocked and stable, and said enough was enough (for now *lol*)

 

Oh man, you just let the cat out of the bag with your electronics background. My dad is Air Force retired, CMSgt, and then after 16 more years, retired Civil Service. My Dad's last living brother is retired Navy. My Dad had two more brothers, both of whom passed away many years ago. One was a Marine and spent 6 months in a North Korean prison camp. The other was a B-29 pilot. My Dad also went to many different electronic schools. He worked on several "projects" including the Rascal missile program. while Civil Service, he was on the F-15's avionics and later, the F-16 avionics programs. some of his electrons rubbed off on me, but I have no formal electronics background.

 

Yep, we're enthusiasts for shore. The closet I ever became to being a "tech" was when I was trying for a wr on a 750TB slot-a on a K7V-T board with TI-4600 vc. I still miss that hardware, even today.

 

You've got the mobo I've started to research for my next upgrade. I can use my beloved X6800 and it supports the 2 pci-e architecture. When price points are right, I'll bite then and she'll fly. I don't want to give up my X6800; she runs at 169 TD at 3.6 and 165+/- at 3.45. The silicon gods were kind to me on the proc.

 

For the time being, my wife sighing relief, I've got 4gb x 2 G.Skill here now. It's been tested to 4-4-4-12 at 1.850. My goal is to run it at 4-4-9-10 at 1.975 or lower. I need to keep the stress off of the MC.

 

I just wish phantomjoker were up. I find it totally out of the ball park that the problem follows with even 4 sticks. I think he boxed stock the bios and still has problems. P08 on the board shouldn't make any difference in the regard. But hey, sometimes electrons, hardware, silicon and code just don't get along.

[GRUMPYBEAR 1]

Oh man, you just let the cat out of the bag with your electronics background. My dad is Air Force retired, CMSgt, and then after 16 more years, retired Civil Service. My Dad's last living brother is retired Navy. My Dad had two more brothers, both of whom passed away many years ago. One was a Marine and spent 6 months in a North Korean prison camp. The other was a B-29 pilot. My Dad also went to many different electronic schools. He worked on several "projects" including the Rascal missile program. while Civil Service, he was on the F-15's avionics and later, the F-16 avionics programs. some of his electrons rubbed off on me, but I have no formal electronics background.

 

Yep, we're enthusiasts for shore. The closet I ever became to being a "tech" was when I was trying for a wr on a 750TB slot-a on a K7V-T board with TI-4600 vc. I still miss that hardware, even today.

 

You've got the mobo I've started to research for my next upgrade. I can use my beloved X6800 and it supports the 2 pci-e architecture. When price points are right, I'll bite then and she'll fly. I don't want to give up my X6800; she runs at 169 TD at 3.6 and 165+/- at 3.45. The silicon gods were kind to me on the proc.

 

For the time being, my wife sighing relief, I've got 4gb x 2 G.Skill here now. It's been tested to 4-4-4-12 at 1.850. My goal is to run it at 4-4-9-10 at 1.975 or lower. I need to keep the stress off of the MC.

 

I just wish phantomjoker were up. I find it totally out of the ball park that the problem follows with even 4 sticks. I think he boxed stock the bios and still has problems. P08 on the board shouldn't make any difference in the regard. But hey, sometimes electrons, hardware, silicon and code just don't get along.

 

I have a 680i Evga MOBO. I updated my bios to the P33 about 2 months ago and since then my pc has been unstable. Right now i'm getting a code on the MOBO thats says my bios battery is bad. I changed it and I'm getting the same code. Sometimes after I do get it up and running it may freeze on me.

I think I need to reflash back to the old bios.

Any thoughts?Cheers

Grumpybear

[almccoyjr 7]

I have a 680i Evga MOBO. I updated my bios to the P33 about 2 months ago and since then my pc has been unstable. Right now i'm getting a code on the MOBO thats says my bios battery is bad. I changed it and I'm getting the same code. Sometimes after I do get it up and running it may freeze on me.

I think I need to reflash back to the old bios.

Any thoughts?Cheers

Grumpybear

 

Hey GRUMYBEAR,

 

Glad to see someone else running a 680i. What design? On the A1 and AR's, there were reports that when the cmos bat was low but not indicated in any warnings, an update bios flash would produce said warning afterwards and the board would be unstable.

 

Since you've changed the bat, I'd reflash to your previous bios since you were'nt having any problems. If nothing goes bump and she's running fine, try and go back up to P33.

 

Question, due you reset to defaults first, flash and then go back in to reset your values? That can cause problems if the bios is not reset to defaults before flashing. I you do, I'd say your cmos bat was right on the edge and flashing pushed it over leading to instability afterwards.

[GRUMPYBEAR 1]

Hi Almccoyir

No I didnt reset the Bios to the defaults before I flashed to P33. So what I will do its reset to defaults and flash back to the previous Bios and see what happens.

I dont know what model my 680i is, will let you know, I think its the AR model.

 

cheers

Grumpy

[almccoyjr 7]

Hi Almccoyir

No I didnt reset the Bios to the defaults before I flashed to P33. So what I will do its reset to defaults and flash back to the previous Bios and see what happens.

I dont know what model my 680i is, will let you know, I think its the AR model.

 

cheers

Grumpy

 

First OFF...haha, please let my apologize for the misspelling, Grumpybear. You can go after me and take me out with a mighty swipe, but please leave my Nup 17 alone. She's done no harm and it's not her fault I keep getting my butt handed to me in QC.

 

Not resetting to defaults can cause some really screwy things; I wasn't the first and you won't be the last. The low bat can happen any time.

 

Let me know the model. How long have you had it? Some where there just has to be another soul who's still running an A1, be it a reference board or not. On the other hand, my "15 minutes" of cutting edge looks to be developing into a 3 year affair come this December. Our boards give us the distinction of being the few, the proud, the humbly chosen by the mobo gods. Oh, and did I mention we have earned the right to call all those other EVGA boards "whippersnappers", especially when they ask why are you still driving that Edsel....