Want a more manoeuvrable Camel?

[Southside Bucky 1]

Hi guys,

 

I felt that the Camel's rudder control wasn't responsive enough...Seemed to be getting out-turned by most, if not all AI planes.

 

So I experimented with changing the Rudder settings in the Camel's DATA.INI file.

 

When flying the DH2, I noticed that it had excellent rudder response, so I copied the following lines from the DH2's DATA.INI "Rudder" section (It's near the bottom), and pasted it into the Camel's:

 

 

MaxDeflection=32.0

MinDeflection=-32.0

CLiftdc=0.001

CDdc=0.0041

Cydc=0.0225

Cldc=0.0003

Cndc=-0.0315

 

 

It'll now turn a lot quicker and feel a bit more skittish. Which is more in keeping with Camel pilot reports.

 

I'm definitely no expert on FM's, but it doesn't seem to have any adverse affects. Give it a go and see what you think...

 

Make a copy of the Camel's DATA.INI file before you make the changes though...Just in case you don't like it.

 

Cheers.

 

Bucky

Edited March 7, 2009 by Southside Bucky

[Ronbo 0]

What about the Dr1? It was much more of a rudder airplane since no fixed vertical fin. I reread the Fokker Dr1 by Leaman last nite on its flying characteristics. how does the AI handle the camel? thats the real challenge...

[Southside Bucky 1]

Well, before posting the above, I tested the Camel one vs one against the Dr.I and found 'em to be very evenly matched.

 

Then I flew the Dr.I against three Camels and lasted about 15 seconds.

 

Then 4 vs 4 against 150 hp Camels. and eventually brought two down...

 

Like I said,...Give it a go. It's a definite improvement if you ask me. :yes:

 

Regards.

 

Bucky

[GreyCap 0]

Yes an improvement, but would this be considered a 'cheat'? Did the real life Camel had poor rudder response?

[Ronbo 0]

Its not so much poor response, but not enough rudder area to compensate for the gyro precession and the short coupleness of the camel while in a right turn. Full rudder was required in only a 30deg bank as described by King in Flight Journal.

[Southside Bucky 1]

Cheating?...Personally, I reckon not. It's just a small attempt at more accurate flight characteristics as reported by actual WWI pilots.

 

The following quotes are all from the book 'Sopwith Camel, King of Combat' by Chaz Bowyer.

 

 

Norman Macmillan of 45 Sqn had this to say about the Camel's turning powers:

 

"I fought in Camels for five months and afterwards was responsible for all the advanced training on a Camel training station, and can say positively that the Camel's lightning turn was right-handed.

In 45 Squadron we used to estimate that the Camel could complete three turns to the right to the Albatros D.V's two, but when turning left these two aircraft were approximately equal with one another in rate of turn."

 

 

Henry Woollett (36 victories) said:

 

"The Camel could dictate a fight and turn inside any scout the enemy used, if it was operating at the right altitude (approx 12000ft)."

 

 

Major Oliver Stuart, who flew and tested many WWI a/c and numerous Camels said:

 

"The Camel set a new standard in powers of manoeuvre and even today (circa 1936) it probably remains the most highly manoeuvrable aeroplane that has ever been built."

 

 

 

Maybe, to achieve a bit more realism there might be a way to slow down or restrict the left turn, but as far as I'm aware, gyroscopic precession can't be replicated in the game so I think adjusting the rudder is the only way.

 

IMO, a faster turn left AND right is a better compromise (and more Camel like) than a slow turn both ways.

 

Regards.

 

Bucky

Edited March 9, 2009 by Southside Bucky

[Ronbo 0]

Well, I modified the 110 camel and left the other 2 alone. in 1v2 against Dr1, I dont see much difference in turn rate, both left or right against them. the 110hp tends to stall easier than the other 2, could be just the hp difference.

 

in 130 and 150hp, i was equal in turns both left and right, but no stall sounds as much.

 

Now, I can feel a difference in the Dr1 Fm vs the camel, it does seem to react quicker than the camel, esp in rudder....

[GreyCap 0]

Cheating?...Personally, I reckon not. It's just a small attempt at more accurate flight characteristics as reported by actual WWI pilots.

 

 

Nice! That's what I wanted to be sure about.

[Southside Bucky 1]

Well, I modified the 110 camel and left the other 2 alone. in 1v2 against Dr1, I dont see much difference in turn rate, both left or right against them. the 110hp tends to stall easier than the other 2, could be just the hp difference.

 

in 130 and 150hp, i was equal in turns both left and right, but no stall sounds as much.

 

Now, I can feel a difference in the Dr1 Fm vs the camel, it does seem to react quicker than the camel, esp in rudder....

 

 

 

Hi Ronbo.

 

After reading your above post, you kinda had me doubting myself. So I went back and compared the 110hp Camel again. First with the original DATA.INI, then with the amended, enhanced rudder version.

 

I was slightly relieved to find that I wouldn't have to alter my original assessment. The DATA.INI rudder changes definitely make a marked difference to the Camel's handling as far as I'm concerned, but without making it an uber performer.

 

Not sure if it might have something to do with differences between joysticks?...I use a Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 which is a twist stick rudder control type. Maybe other joysticks or using pedals give different results?...

 

Ultimately though, it's all down to personal taste, I s'pose...

 

Regards.

 

Bucky

 

 

PS.

Not sure I understand what you mean when you say: "...Now, I can feel a difference in the Dr1 Fm vs the camel."... Have you altered the Triplane in some way?

Edited March 13, 2009 by Southside Bucky

[Ronbo 0]

Bucky,

Not sure i may have better flying skills/tactics.. who knows? I use MS sidewinder non forcefeedback. Anyway, I fly everything on hard except AI is normal to try to balance the wingmen.

 

Im using peters latest Dr1 FM nothing changed. To me, it feels sensitive to rudder as it should be without being too squirrely for AI. Ill try put ai on hard to see if there is a difference in my flying the 110/130/150 vs Dr1 and vice versa.

 

a note, perhaps rudder throw more to the right vs left would give it that 'camel' feel? not sure...

 

Personal taste can factor in too, but sometimes that is part of the problem when it comes to accuracy. So far, thats all we go on with these crates until the proper aero engineers, coding, historians and actual flight comparisions can be performed. Ive said it pretty much since 1997/98 on this subject....

[Southside Bucky 1]

Bucky,

Not sure i may have better flying skills/tactics.. who knows?

 

 

 

Of that, there is no doubt!

 

Not sure if the rudder can be given any left or right bias via the DATA.INI. I don't think so...

 

Regards.

 

Bucky

[+Laton 4]

Its been a while since I messed with FM's but I think that these lines:

 

MaxDeflection=32.0

MinDeflection=-32.0

 

Not only tell the game engine how far to rotate the rudder element in the game but also how to calculate how much rudder is being used at any one time.

 

If you, say, halve one side you may be able to simulate a difference in rudder effectiveness - of course you will have to be OK with the in-game model's rudder not moving as far to one side.

 

Could be worth a shot - my joystick isn't hooked up at the moment or I'd give it a go.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Laton

[Southside Bucky 1]

Nice one, Laton. That does work...Well sort of...

 

I tested it with this setting for the right: MaxDeflection=32.0.

 

And after some experimentation: This for the left: MinDeflection=-10.0

 

Those settings will slow down the left turn, but it can be overcome by banking the Camel a bit steeper, which kinda negates the restriction on the rudder.

 

I haven't had enough testing time to give any definitive assessment, but with a bit more experimentation and fine tuning? ...

 

Thanks for your input.

 

Bucky