Camel FM

[Wildfowler 0]

I am no moder at all so I am not in a position to critise but does anyone think the Sopwith Camel in FE should be a bit more skittish? Especially in a right turn. The Camel was supposed to dip it's nose in a right turn and lift it in a left turn. Due to the torque of the engine.

I have the fantastic new FM's but the Camel still seems a little easy in a right turn to me. The Camel could very easily snap into a spin in a right turn.

[Southside Bucky 1]

Hi Wildfowler.

 

I brought this up before...Have a look here:

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...23&hl=Camel

 

Basically, you adjust the deflection of the Camel's rudder to simulate the restriction of a left turn, and the enhancement of a right turn. As far as I'm aware, engine torque isn't (can't be?) modelled in the game.

 

Here are the numbers I settled on after a bit of experimenting:

[Rudder]

MaxDeflection=32.0 <-Right turn

MinDeflection=-10.0 <-Left turn

 

I haven't adjusted the rudders on Peter's latest Camel FM's yet, so I can't say how they handle.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Bucky

[+Tailspin 3]

I agree that the Camel should be one of the aircraft that should snap into a hard spin if you stall it.

[Wildfowler 0]

Thanks for the replies and the suggestion. I will try that.

 

I am surprised torque cannot be modelled!

 

Perhaps one could simulate it on rotary engined machines by tweaking the ailerons to dip in the opposite direction to the prop rotation.

 

Anyone think it workable?

[+Tailspin 3]

I'm not sure torque isn't modelled to some extent. Try slamming the throttle wide open on a Camel while sitting on the ground. You'd better have ahold of the stick.

[Panama Red 22]

Torque IS modeled in the game, it's call Moment of Inertia.

 

On the Camel_130 Peter01 made it: MomentOfInertia=8.10

[Southside Bucky 1]

Well hush my mouth!...You're right fella's.

 

Actually, in the 'Engine' section of the DATA.INI, apart from the 'MomentOfInertia' line, there's also a 'GyroscopicInertia' entry. The Camel's is set at 350.0.

 

All I know is, with 'MomentOfInertia' set at 8.10, and 'GyroscopicInertia' set at 350.0, the Camel flys in a straight line, hands off.

 

Think I'll do a little testing...

[Panama Red 22]

The reason that I say MOI, is because IIRC, TK made a comment awhile back that this was where the torque effect resided in the FE engine (memory is not as good as it used to be, so do not hold me to it).

[Wildfowler 0]

Well hush my mouth!...You're right fella's.

 

Actually, in the 'Engine' section of the DATA.INI, apart from the 'MomentOfInertia' line, there's also a 'GyroscopicInertia' entry. The Camel's is set at 350.0.

 

All I know is, with 'MomentOfInertia' set at 8.10, and 'GyroscopicInertia' set at 350.0, the Camel flys in a straight line, hands off.

 

Think I'll do a little testing...

 

I look forward to your findings!

[Southside Bucky 1]

OK, I could go on testing this for hours, if not days, but I think it's all gonna come down to personal preference. So here's what I found after 20 minutes:

 

To make the Camel pull to the right quite strongly, I altered the 'Moment OfInertia' line to: -60.10. Make sure you insert the hyphen ('-') before the number, otherwise it'll pull to the left.

 

I'm not sure if I'll settle on that high a number, but it's a start...See what you think.

 

Not sure if the AI Camel pilots will be able to handle that much torque either, but we'll see. :yes:

 

I also reverted the rudder deflection to 32.0 left AND right. (Previously, I had it set at 32.0 right, and 10.0 left)

 

Any help or feedback with all this would be good (is Peter around? )

[+Tailspin 3]

Actually the stock Camels don't fly straight and level hands off. They tend to climb and roll slightly to the left.

[+Tailspin 3]

Well, I'm having trouble getting off the ground with anything much higher than -15 for the MOI. At that setting ground handling is a bit more difficult but managable. In the air there is a definite drift/roll to the right. Doesn't seem to affect turn rate in either direction that much. I did stall twice trying a snap roll and turn to the left though. I'll play with the Gyroscopic Inertia values too. Maybe there is a combination of the two that will work better.

[+Tailspin 3]

Ummmm...wait a minute. Doesn't the torque effect for an engine rotating clockwise cause the plane to pull to the LEFT?

[+Tailspin 3]

Ok, one final report and then I'm going to bed. I reset the MOI to a positive 10 (you can try more but you'll have to take off on auto pilot) and set the Gyroscopic Inertia to a negative 550. Now I think I'm getting the desired effect. In a right turn the nose tends to drop or at least requires some left rudder to coordinate. In a left turn the nose tends to rise and requires left rudder to coordinate. Coordinated 360 degree turns still seem to be fairly equal in time. However I was flying at low altitude where I couldn't really let the nose drop too much in a right turn to help with the turn rate. Haven't tested it enough but this also seems to increase the tendency to stall if you're too aggressive with the initial bank beginning a turn. This is with the stock Camel 130 FM. Good night, folks. See you later this morning.

[Southside Bucky 1]

Ummmm...wait a minute. Doesn't the torque effect for an engine rotating clockwise cause the plane to pull to the LEFT?

 

 

Dunno. All that Gyroscopic precession, and torque physics business makes my head hurt, but Camels definitely pulled to the right.

 

Good work you're doing there Tailspin. I think I'll await your next bout of testing before I go any further with it...

 

I s'pose to be strictly accurate, ALL the rotary engine a/c should have a bit of torque added

[+Tailspin 3]

Hi Bucky, do you have any handy references on the Camel? One I found at the Aerodrome says a Camel pilot needed to apply full RIGHT rudder on take off to counteract torque. If it pulled to the right I don't think you would want to add right rudder??

[Southside Bucky 1]

As it happens, over the last couple of weeks I've been re-reading that sublime piece of literature; 'Winged Victory', by V.M Yeates.

 

As you no doubt know, Yeates was a Camel pilot with 46 & 80 Sqns from February to August 31st 1918, and although written as a fictional novel, his book is actually a semi-biographical account of his wartime flying.

 

I only realised this recently, but Chapter 3 (pages 30 to 37) contains the most beautifully graphic description of the Camel's flight characteristics I've ever read.

 

I'm not gonna type out the whole eight pages, but here's a small section where Tom Cundall (actually Victor Yeates) is given a "preliminary lecture" by Baker, his instructor, before he goes solo on the Camel for the first time:

 

 

"I suppose you haven't run a Clerget engine before. (It was a Clerget Camel.) You'll find it just like a Le Rhone; you've taken up the Le Rhone Pup, haven't you? You'll find it a bit fierce to start with: you've got another forty horse-power and plenty more revs. You'll soon get to like that. Be careful with your fine adjustment, they're a bit tricky on that. Ease it back as much as you can as soon as you're off the ground, and the higher you get the less juice you'll find she wants. I expect you've heard all about flying them. Be careful of your rudder. You may find it a bit difficult to keep straight at first. Keep just a shade of left rudder on to counteract the twist to the right; when you're on anything like full throttle you can feel the engine pulling to the right all the time."

 

 

Anyone into WWI aviation that hasn't read this book, should buy it now...Today! :yes:

 

It's cheap too!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Winged-Victory-V-M...3072&sr=1-1

 

http://www.amazon.com/Winged-Victory-V-Yea...3274&sr=1-1

 

Can you believe they put SE5's on the cover?

 

Bucky

Edited July 6, 2009 by Southside Bucky

[+Tailspin 3]

Cool! Now you know why I don't do flight models.

 

I think I was more wishing it was pulling left because that seemed to work better with the Gyroscopic Inertia thing and the nose attitude in the turns. I've done some more flying today and I think maybe increasing the Gyroscopic effect tends more to just keep the nose pointed in whatever direction its pointing (makes sense and the torque direction probably doesn't have as much affect as I thought). However I think that (increasing the Gyro) forces you to use more rudder correction and with the increased inertia she can get "out from under you" if you aren't paying attention. Anyway, IMHO cranking up the gyro inertia changes the feel of the Camel. Seems a little looser but maybe quicker. With Peter's enhanced head shake its a pretty good ride. I always had trouble the those d****d pesky little Pfalz DIIIs. Today, I almost felt sorry for the b....., er, poor fellows.

 

Ok, I may be exaggerating. As I mentioned, I can't seem to get the 130 off the ground (without autopilot...which I use a lot anyway) with much over MOI of -15.0 without crashing. Of course when you hit the gas the Camel goes to full throttle and it just rolls over into the ground. Doesn't bother the AI though. I guess they're using the AP.

 

edit...Almost forgot...now if we could just figure out how to get her to fall into a spin quicker she may be closer to the dangerous beast she can be.

 

What about the AI, you ask? We don' need no steenkin' AI.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Tailspin

[Southside Bucky 1]

Yeah, keep at it TS...A decent Camel's in there somewhere, I reckon.

 

Unfortunately the (very nice) blip switch, full-on or completely off effect is not applicable to ALL Rotaries. The Camel (for one) did have a throttle.

 

D'you know if there's any way to get the throttle back like they were when the game was first released? It'll probably make all the difference to successful take offs.

[+Tailspin 3]

I think you can turn the blip off in the engine section. That reminds me. I think I may have turned up the throttle rate because I thought it sounded better when you blipped it. Thay could be part of the problem.

[Southside Bucky 1]

Ha!... The Camel (or any rotary a/c) gets a throttle by inserting the double 'forward slashes' on the two 'BlipSwitch' lines. Thus:

 

// Engines ---------------------------------------------------------

 

[Engine]

ReferenceName=Clerget 130 HP

SystemType=PROP_ENGINE

InputName=THROTTLE_CONTROL

//BlipSwitch=TRUE

//BlipThreshhold=0.95

 

 

Or you could just delete 'em of course.

 

It's still well tricky taking off though, but it can be done with the 'MOI' set at around -25.0.

 

Thanks for that, Tailspin.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Southside Bucky

[Panama Red 22]

The "blip switch" is in the engine section. Just disable it and you get your throttle back.

[Bandy 3]

Ummmm, sorry guys, :blush2: but is there any consensus on getting Camelish behaviour out of the FM yet???

[+Tailspin 3]

Sorry, went back to work Wed. for a few days. My initial enthusiasm has been tempered somewhat because, A. I'm not so sure changing those values make that much difference, and B. I'm totally lost when it comes to stalls and spins.

[Wildfowler 0]

I think you can turn the blip off in the engine section. That reminds me. I think I may have turned up the throttle rate because I thought it sounded better when you blipped it. Thay could be part of the problem.

 

I have amended my camel and I feel it is heaps better. Also I have not touched the throttle in anyway.