Twist or rudder pedals?

[Broadside uda Barn 0]

Still have a couple of days to wait for OFF and CFS3 to show up, so I'm going over what I have.

I have the MS Sidewinder 2 FF joystick. It's got the twist function (I also have an old Sidewinder 3dpro that twists), and also a throttle control.

 

Will the twist function and throttle control suffice for OFF?

 

or do I need rudder pedals? (I will try and get the TrackIR asap as my next purchase, so the pedals will have to wait even if they are super necessary.)

 

 

and now for the super noob question, and I hate to admit it openly, but I freely admit that I'm lame for not knowing: WHY do I need rudder? What does it do exactly? If my stick banks left and right, forward and back, and my throttle gives me speed, then is rudder like sliding?

 

BSUB

 

 

--edit--I also have an old thrustmaster FF driving wheel and pedals, but the pedals connect to the wheel, so I cant use them alone...and I'm sure the wheel wouldnt be better than the stick....it wouldnt be, would it? --

Edited July 5, 2009 by Broadside uda Barn

[Check Six 2]

Broadside uda Barn,

 

I have been flying flight sims for some years now (crappily, I'll readily admit), and I've found that twist rudder on a joystick will suffice in many cases.

 

For WW2 and jet age flight sims, the rudder seems less of a necessity to use whilst flying (note I said LESS of a necessity...purists will insist it's vital). In WW1 crates like the magnificent beauties in this crackerjack sim, it is much more necessary to use rudder in tight turns to keep your nose up. Keeping your nose up means you lose less altitude in a turn, and in combat (especially WW1 combat) this is essential and may mean the difference between survival and death.

 

Having said all that, I have just a month ago purchased my first ever set of rudder pedals. I like flying with them now, and as it was easy to disable the twisting motion of my joystick as well as disabling the function of it, I went ahead. I firmly believe that you'll get a much better response from rudder pedals than a twisty stick. I find that moving your wrist around to bank and turn WHILST TWISTING your stick to add a bit of rudder during the turn causes unnatural angles and may cause wrist strain if you fly for long periods or use it constantly. For this and other reasons mentioned (ie that rudders are better to use, and more responsive, and more natural etc), I think rudder pedals are the go.

 

BUT...

 

NOT before you spend your money on TrackIR. Get TrackIR first. Beg, borrow, st...no..don't steal. Sell a kidney...busk on street corners. TrackIR is an absolute MUST GET. Preferably TrackIR 5 if your budget will extend to that much. The pro Clip I found is obtrusive and ties you down with cables...the cap clip on device is sufficient and works well. Then use homeboy's setup guide (in the stickies at the top of the page) and you're off on a wondeful experience.

 

Then, if you're still flush with cash, you might invest in a set of rudder pedals. I think you'll find the total immersion of this sim, especally if you get TrackIR will make you want to feel even more in the pilot's seat and make the plunge for rudders. But seriously...get TrackIR FIRST. You will NOT regret it.

 

PS If you have got M$ Flight Sim X, there on the quick flight window, there is a little tab up on top that is marked "Lessons". A real-life flight instructor guides you through the lessons needed to fly well. Check out the lessons to do with using rudder, and you'll see why it's necessary.

[Broadside uda Barn 0]

Thanks Steve and Al!

I read a variety of posts from both of you while searching for pedals and also joysticks. Thank you for posting all the information that you did.

 

 

I've used the twist function on my sidewinders for over a decade (In the game Descent, I used it to bank left and right, while using the hat switch to slide up/down/left/right), so I'm very conditioned for flying/aiming/twisting at the same time.

 

I'm assuming that this banking is basically the function of the rudders...If 10 degrees of bank is all I can get out of the twist, then I guess I am at a disadvantage...over 35 degrees with pedals. This cant be increased with sensitivity in controller software or anywhere else for more than 10 degrees?

 

 

My wheel and pedals are out, unless I can hook them up AND the SW2FF stick, and just use the pedals connected to the wheel and use the joystick at the same time. However, deskspace is limited.

 

Seems like CH pedals and Saitek pedals are the only options, both running $125 or so...and reviews state that the Saitek are better?

 

yes, TrackIR is my next purchase. I dont want to order it until I get OFF up and running (hopefully next week), though I'm very tempted to just order it now. $150 for TrackIR 5 is pricey, as are the pedals. Very unsure about getting both.

 

Steve, I dont have flight sim X, or any flight sim for that matter. Last one I owned was RB3D, or Descent if you want to call it a flight game.

 

Al--I'm curious how you came up with the 10 degrees for the MS joystick, 30 for the Evo, and 35 for the pedals? Wondering if I can get my twist function to give more output somehow (my 3dpro, while not FFB, has a VERY wide twist range).

Edited July 5, 2009 by Broadside uda Barn

[Duce Lewis 3]

Well, you're starting off really good

IMO the Sidewinder is an excellent stick and TIR is a must have option

 

My advice is to see if the the driving pedals will work, at least short term

 

Pedals control Yaw or left/right movement

 

To make a coordinated (left) turn;

The stick is used to roll left then start the turn by pulling back

Top Rudder (right) is then applied to keep the nose from dropping

As you get accustomed you'll find you use it naturally in many situations

 

HTH,

[Broadside uda Barn 0]

The small changes in Yaw are best done with the rudder, any movement of the Ailerons will cause you to bank off target.

 

So it's basically a turning aid, making for sharper turns, almost pivoting, right? Watching a couple of the videos kind of gave me that thought as they were making some amazingly short turns. I guess the twist function only allows a slight bank/pivot then, while the EVO or pedals allow for just that much more?

 

 

Answers to most Newbie Questions are here for taking.

 

Here being General Discussion

 

STICKY OFF Tips & Cheats

 

I read that whole thread. Thanks for all the work that went into that.

 

 

anyone have an opinion on pedals: CH or Saitek?

[Hauksbee 103]

So it's basically a turning aid, making for sharper turns, almost pivoting, right?

About rudders in turns: here's how my instructor explained it to me. In a turn, it's definitely a function of aileron, left or right. However, imagine the diameter of the circle your plane is describing. In a left turn, for example, your right wingtip is moving faster than the left wingtip by virtue of being farther away from the center of that circle, so the right wingtip wants to get ahead of it mate, which rotates the airplane around its vertical axis. That causes the nose to drop and the plane falls inward. The cure is to apply some opposite rudder to keep the nose up.

 

I've never tried your method of using the rudder as the primary way to turn, tho' I imagine that, like a boat in the water, it will bring you around. But if there's somebody on your six shooting, ailerons are the way to go.

 

I'm using a Logitech 'twist' stick because my beloved Sidewinder disappeared somewhere in a move, and I find it so frustrating that I check 'Auto-Rudder' in the Workshops. In a diving left turn, the stick has to move on two axes, and I find that keeping that constant while adding 'twist' is damn near impossible, and I'm all over the sky. Auto Rudder cures that. However, in the few Multi-Player sessions I've been in, I seem to have full rudder control again. I guess Workshop settings are determined by the person hosting the game, so a set of floor pedals are definitely in my future. Which ones remain to be determined.

 

One place where your rudder control is invaluable is when you want to fine tune a shot. Assume your target's in a gentle right turn. You're swinging in from behind to get on his tail. The two of you are flying two different circles that have to intersect. Assume again that's he's staying just a bit off to the right of your gunsight. Instead of increasing your bank [which changes your whole circle] just tap some right rudder and the nose swings over and take the shot. Another place where the rudder is invaluable is in strafing ground target. You can fly a straight line [like down a road with trucks] and by lightly tapping the rudder left and right you can hose the area and stay on course too.

[Check Six 2]

Broadside uda Barn,

 

The new rudder pedals I purchased are Saitek, and I find them to be good. The foot pedals are adjustable for length, so you can adjust them to the length of your feet (so you don't have your toes curling over their front edge). They have an adjustable tension control, but I can't seem to make mine budge (unsure that if I apply any more pressure whether it'd break). Having said that, they are rugged in construction and the default tension is fine by me (like I said, my first pair).

 

Easy to connect and adjustable in their software for the amount of rudder applied for certain input, they are a perfect companion for my Saitek X-52 Joystick. They have toe brake controls too. Brake controls aren't used in OFF, but they are in other flight sims. (Toe brakes are applied similarly to the brake on your car, except you have two of them, one for right and one for left, and you merely press your toes downward to activate them). I imagine they MAY be adaptable to driving games, as they can be used similarly to car pedals.

 

This joystick is also twistable, and that is what I've been using for some time. The best part about it is that once you purchase a set of rudder pedals, you think that you still might instinctively twist the stick when you desire to use rudder, but the Saitek has a twist lock, and you can prevent it twisting, enabling it to become a "standard" (ie not-twisty) joystick.

 

I don't know if it would fool anyone (AI included) but when you just can't seem to shake your enemy off your tail, I apply a lot of rudder to force my plane to "skid" turn. If you can imagine your plane travelling in straight and level flight, your opponent would easily sit on your tail and blast away. A no-deflection shot...easy money. If you apply full rudder whilst keeping your wings level and maintaining a straight course, you are in a skid turn, and your nose is not pointing in the direction you are travelling (similarly to a four wheel drift in your car...you are travelling in a different direction than where your nose is headed). Your opponent on your tail can look at the orientation of your craft, and extrapolate where you WILL BE (ie lead your aircraft) and be shooting at that place, but of course you won't ever be there.

 

I don't know whether this would fool anyone, but it may do for a second, and this might be all you need to evade his fire. Of course, the description I just gave (straight and level flight) was for imagination purposes only. You DO indeed, yank and bank around as hard as you dare, and jinking with your rudder gives you an extra dimension to manoeuvre in...and anything helps in grave situations like that.

 

Rudders in WW1 aircraft do indeed move many more degrees than in a jet fighter. As uncleal said, they'd rip off if there was more than a few degrees deflection at those speeds. Because a WW1 aircraft is MUCH slower, they are also prone to stalling, and many of them are constantly flying on that fine line just short of a stall. In that case, you MUST apply rudder in the turns, applying "up" rudder to keep your nose level to the horizon ("up" rudder is right rudder in a left turn, and vice versa - imagine you're flying at 90 degs to the horizon, and imagine which is "up" rudder...left or right). This prevents you losing too much altitude, and as I mentioned before, altitude means life in combat.

 

You can use your rudders as a "primary" means of a turn, but not in the classic sense. If you are flight leader, or following your flight leader, and discover you are a few degrees only off course, you might bank and turn too hard to adjust for just a few degrees, and I find you can just sit there and sip your coffee, flying hands-free, and apply a little left rudder, and watch the nose "yaw" around until you are back on course.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Steve Drew

[Broadside uda Barn 0]

OK, that makes a lot of sense. I can see why it's so important and usefull.

 

Hauksbee and Steve: Thank you for the clear explanation!

 

I dont know that I'll be able to use the twist for long manoevers, as opposed to just quick twists. I'll give it a try, and keep my eyes open for a used pair of pedals :)

Edited July 5, 2009 by Broadside uda Barn

[Check Six 2]

Broadside,

 

It remains to be seen if you are ALLOWED to perform lengthy manoeuvres. The longer you maintain a manoeuvre, the more of a target you become. Then you become a statistic.

 

Remain unpredictable, move around as much as you can. Fake him into thinking you're turning left, then throw it over to the right. These fokkers are hard to escape somtimes, especially the fokkers in Albatrosses.

 

Blue Skies.

 

You'll LOVE this sim. I'm pleased you're also (like I did) doing your homework, and even before you have a copy installed on your hard drive, you have read all the sticky threads, copied all the relevant tips and tricks onto a piece of paper for reference, printed out Homeboy's Key Commands page. That's the right way to go about it. You'll be aware of anything that might go not quite the way you wanted it immediately.

 

In a few weeks, you'll be posting tips and hints and updates for others. It's all about passing on the knowledge to enable others to survive.

[Broadside uda Barn 0]

You'll LOVE this sim. I'm pleased you're also (like I did) doing your homework, and even before you have a copy installed on your hard drive, you have read all the sticky threads,

 

 

Heh! Yes, I've jumped in with both feet already. I spent the whole day yesterday reading the forums and threads. Started off this morning doing the same, but keep running into stuff I've already read. :yes:

 

I also posted info on bluesnews...hopefully that'll help get the word out. I'm REALLY surprised that I never heard about OFF, as I had searched quite a few times for decent WW1 sims.

 

 

Next step is to get it up and running, then TrackIR, then pedals.

[Broadside uda Barn 0]

Check out this clip from The Red Baron (German movie...dont know if it's available in English or here in the States yet...).

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-58SS77U84

 

At 1:50, the allied pilot does a wing slip type manoever...I'm assuming this is hard rudder right, as he turns left onto the Baron's six....correct?

[Duce Lewis 3]

Check out this clip from The Red Baron (German movie...dont know if it's available in English or here in the States yet...).

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-58SS77U84

 

At 1:50, the allied pilot does a wing slip type manoever...I'm assuming this is hard rudder right, as he turns left onto the Baron's six....correct?

Broadside,

It looks like a wingover but it's so steep it's almost a hammerhead turn

Either way, you're right, there's a lot of rudder in there

But elevator and ailerons are coordinated in there too

 

Wingovers are a great manuerver to learn for OFF - quick reversal of direction

But I suggest that you concentrate on a simple flat turn

 

Hardest part for me was to just remeber to use rudder at all

Legs just sat there like dead logs

But once you get accustomed, it becomes natural

Legs just move on ther own as required

[Broadside uda Barn 0]

This should show you what is needed to obtain the disired result ( IF it still works, as it's a rather old link )

 

http://www.geocities.com/ww1fighters/media/maneuver.htm

 

 

Thanks Al, yeah...still works! Very clear, even tho it was a bit fast. I had to play it over and over to see the rudder usage and when to use them.

 

Sigh...I guess I'm going to HAVE to get pedals.

I bid on a set of used Saitek pedals on ebay tonight, but lost the bid at $102 at the last seconds. With shipping ($15), it's almost the price of a brand new set ($130 is the cheapest I've seen online). The CH pedals on Amazon are $104.

Dont know why they are so expensive....seems like it should be around $60 (same price as a decent joystick).

[Broadside uda Barn 0]

interestingly, many of the online sites are out of stock on the saitek pedals. Even saitek's own site is "out of stock".

I wonder if they stopped making them...?

[themightysrc 5]

Hi,

 

Interesting discussion! As the recent owner of an MS Sidewinder 2, I was pleased/suprised to find the twisty ruddery thing on the stick, and disabled auto-rudder. I'm a little perturbed to read that I won't be getting full left/right rudder though. I wonder if it's configurable in some way via the stick. in the same way you can change TrackIR to have more game head movement with less real head movement?

 

Finally, all comments above about the functions of rudders are spot on. Just one more to make explicit - it helps make landing much easier, as you can make fine adjustments to your approach without disturbing your level flight.

[Broadside uda Barn 0]

Hi,

 

I'm a little perturbed to read that I won't be getting full left/right rudder though. I wonder if it's configurable in some way via the stick. in the same way you can change TrackIR to have more game head movement with less real head movement?

 

I'm wondering the same thing. The controller setup in windows might allow for that...The sensitivity of the stick can be adjusted....wondering if that adjustment might affect the twist? I dont have OFF yet (ordered and on it's way [i hope]), so I cant test it. Will try when I get it tho.

[Check Six 2]

Hi,

 

Interesting discussion! As the recent owner of an MS Sidewinder 2, I was pleased/suprised to find the twisty ruddery thing on the stick, and disabled auto-rudder. I'm a little perturbed to read that I won't be getting full left/right rudder though. I wonder if it's configurable in some way via the stick. in the same way you can change TrackIR to have more game head movement with less real head movement?

 

Finally, all comments above about the functions of rudders are spot on. Just one more to make explicit - it helps make landing much easier, as you can make fine adjustments to your approach without disturbing your level flight.

 

 

If it is like Saitek Joystick and pedals, they have their own software, and you may be able to adjust the sensitivity there as well.