Skin historian needed (OVS?)

[Hemorad 0]

I am about to launch into a new project, a plastic 1/32 scale LVG CVII which I just got from this great site in New Zealand:

http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/node

The model features several finishing options, which include five-color full wing lozenge decals, and a selection of Maltese crosses and Balkan crosses (fat and skinny varieties). I really like the looks of the lozenge camo, and would also like to apply the Maltese crosses (this plane did come out in early 1918, when Maltese crosses were still in), but the historical examples that came with the kit show only rather drab broad-patch camo on the wings with the Maltese crosses, and the lozenge camo is shown only with the later Balkan crosses.

Question is, would it be incorrect to mix the Maltese cross and lozenge camo together on this craft?

 

BTW, you should take a look at the site above. These guys have built a full-scale flying FE2B using an original rebuilt Beardmore engine, an SE5a, and several other original engines (Mercedes DIII). Great pictures and videos of their planes in flight included!

 

Hemo

[RAF_Louvert 101]

Hemorad, are you sure you don't mean an LVG CVI? Rumpler and Albatros both built a CVII but I don't recall ever seeing an LVG CVII. Inquiring minds want to know.

 

Also, if you are referring to the LVG CVI, I have not seen any photos showing the combination you are describing.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[Olham 164]

Here's the craft from the Shuttleworth Collction in flight.

 

 

But sorry - Balkenkreuz.

[OvS 8]

I am about to launch into a new project, a plastic 1/32 scale LVG CVII which I just got from this great site in New Zealand:

http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/node

The model features several finishing options, which include five-color full wing lozenge decals, and a selection of Maltese crosses and Balkan crosses (fat and skinny varieties). I really like the looks of the lozenge camo, and would also like to apply the Maltese crosses (this plane did come out in early 1918, when Maltese crosses were still in), but the historical examples that came with the kit show only rather drab broad-patch camo on the wings with the Maltese crosses, and the lozenge camo is shown only with the later Balkan crosses.

Question is, would it be incorrect to mix the Maltese cross and lozenge camo together on this craft?

 

BTW, you should take a look at the site above. These guys have built a full-scale flying FE2B using an original rebuilt Beardmore engine, an SE5a, and several other original engines (Mercedes DIII). Great pictures and videos of their planes in flight included!

 

Hemo

 

 

Hello Hemo,

 

Below are some examples from Wings Palette showing the variations of the LVG C.V verses the LVG C.VI. This is not the same plane with a bigger motor, there are very noticable differences betweem the two aircraft types. A larger engine, rudder shape, breather holes, engine cover (C.V)... etc.

 

So it's something like this... if the decals are showing an LVG C.VI and it is in fact a C.VI model, go with the Greek cross on Lozenge... if you have an LVG C.V, then you can get away with Lozenge with the Maltees (Iron) cross. By mid-late March 1918, all German markings were to be the Greek cross... although some were repainted from scratch, others were simple 'paint-overs' on top of the existing Iron Cross which made them look huge. Later on in the war, when the wings were repaired, or the fabric was changed, each plane was painted with the standard thin lined Greek cross.

 

I will point out though, that the LVG was more noted to have been in an all wood standard fuselage, rather than lozenge all over. Squadron insignias, on top of painted fuselages were the norm as well. Also, the earlier C.V had many variations of camo painted all over the plane. Dan San Abbott from The Aerodrome helped us out with many of his suggestions, although we found when they were painted on to the plane... they didn't look right... so we tweaked some of the colors to fit better.

 

I hope that helps a little.... I would go with the Greek.. on lozenge wings, with a wood fuselage... that would look not only classic, but would keep you from thinking you were not historical.

 

 

 

Unit: Flieger-Abteilung (A)212

Serial: unknown

Pilot - Flugzeugfuhrer UO Schroder, observer - Lt.August Auer. Early 1918.

 

LVG C.VI

Unit: Flieger-Abteilung ?

Serial: 4 (C.1510/18)

 

LVG C.V

Unit: unknown

Serial: C.9667/17

Unknown German training unit, Summer-Autumn 1918

[shredward 12]

Hallo Hemo,

Here's a profile and photo of field applied camo - it was found on operations that the effectiveness of the four or five-colour lozenge was compromised by the gloss on the plywood, as noted on an official document from Idflieg on September 20. As a result, the metal panels and plywood were frequently overpainted by the units in the field.

When you are modelling, the Datafiles are an invaluable aid if you can get your hands on them.

Cheers,

shredward

[Hemorad 0]

Thanks to all for your rapid replies!

Yes, my mistake, the model is an LVG CVI (not CVII).

Looks like Maltese crosses are out for the lozenge camo. Will go with the skinny Greek (Balkan) crosses, as shown in the video clip.

Fuselage of the model is indeed just stained plywood, no camo.

 

Does anyone know why the Fliegerabteilung decided to switch insignia in spring 1918?

Also, is there a date difference between the skinny and fat versions of the Greek cross?

Interestingly, the modern Luftwaffe has gone back to a modified, rather slender, Maltese cross these days.

 

Thanks again,

 

Hemo

[shredward 12]

Courtesy of Dan-San Abbott:

 

"On 20 March 1918, Idfleig sent out telegram Order 41390 which directed that all aircraft crosses would be the straight cross with a 15 cm white border surrounding black cross. This was the introduction of the balken (beam) style cross. The proportions of the cross were not given. But, this was corrected by a second telegram after several calls and telegrams. The proportion of the cross was to be: width to length was 1:4, a cross 1000 mm high and wide would have an arm width of 250 mm and the entire cross would be surrounded with a 150 mm border. The directive stated the rudder was to be painted white with the black beam cross painted on the white rudder. These changes in the crosses were to be carried out no later than 15 April 1918.

The cross form made by the Jasta personnel in the field varied all over the place. Most just drew straight lines fom the tips of the arms resulting in very fat crosses with a ratio of 1:2.5 and some 1:3.

The next change occured on 13 May 1918, was to the Latin Cross with the height to width ratio of 5:4. This cross was a complete new cross with the vertical bar of the cross to be full chord, from leading edge to trailing edge. The length of the horizontal bar was to be 4:5 of the vertical bar. The width of the bar was to be 1:8, and the white border will form right angles between the cross arms, the white border would not enclosed the ends of the cross arms. The width of white border to the bar width will be 1:4, i.e. the vertical height were 1000 mm, the horizontal bar would be 800 mm the bar width would be 125 mm and the white border would 31.25 mm wide.

The final change in the German national markings was on 25 June 1918 when a directive was sent by telegram to all units and manufacturers to change the height to wide ratio from 5:4 to 1:1, the lengths of the vertical and horizontal bars were to be equal lengths. For example the upper wing cross on a Fokker D.VII would be changed from 1600 x 1280 to 1600 x1600 mm, the bar would be 200 mm wide and the white border 50 mm wide.

There were no further changes to German national markings to the end of the war."

 

Cheers,

shredward