+gregoryp Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 Is it possible to have 2-3 different types of bombs in a single bomb bay? Or bombs plus a fuel tank? Some bomber bomb loads contained more than one bomb type. For example Wellington (12)250lb Bombs + 140gal Bomb bay tank (6)250lb Bombs + 140gal Bomb bay tank (2)1000lb Bombs + 146gal Bomb bay tank Lancaster (9)1000lbs + (1)4000lbs cookie Bombs (18)500lbs + (1)4000lbs cookie Bombs (6)500lbs + (1)8000lbs cookie Bombs (6)500lbs + (1)12000lbs cookie Bombs (8)250lbs + (6)2000lbs Bombs Halifax (6)2000lbs + (6) 500lbsBombs (2)4000lbs Cookie Bombs+ (2)1000lbs + (8)500lbs (1)8000lb Cookie Bomb + (6)500lbs Could you define 2-3 bomb bays using the same animation bomb bay number for different bomb bay configurations? Quote
+FastCargo Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 Let me make it a little clearer for you. Lets look at a typical WeaponStation: SystemType=WEAPON_STATIONStationID=1 StationGroupID=1StationType=INTERNAL AttachmentPosition001=-0.340,3.45,-0.59 AttachmentPosition002=-0.340,3.45,-0.00 AttachmentPosition003=-0.000,3.45,-0.59 AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0 NumWeapons=3 LoadLimit=130 DiameterLimit=0.5 LengthLimit=2.2 AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB AttachmentType=USAF,NATO ModelNodeName=Falcon_sx MovingPylon=TRUE AutomaticDoors=TRUE AnimationID=9 RotatingPylon=TRUE PylonMass=10 PylondragArea=0.001 Don't worry about getting too specific here...this is just a generic station. Note the 2 areas in bold, the StationID and StationGroupID. The StationGroupID represents the group number that station belongs to. As an example, the outer wingtips on an F-16 would be stationGroupID=1, the outer pylons would be 2, mid pylons 3, etc. You can have a total of 6 selectable StationGroupIDs...another way to put it is that each StationGroupID represents a loadout 'line' on the Loadout screen. Now, the StationID represents the individual stations, of which you can have a total of 32 (with a bombbay like above considered one StationID). Again, in our example of the F-16, the left wingtip would be Station ID=1, the right wingtip would be StationID=2, the left outer pylon is StationID=3, the right one StationID=4, and so on. So, what does this mean. First, if you are using the Loadout screen, you can only load ONE type of weapon per StationGroupID. In other words, if you wanted an AIM-9P on the left wingtip, and an AIM-9M on the right wingtip, if they are both part of the same StationGroupID, you CANNOT do this through the loadout screen manually (there is a way to step around this using the LOADOUT.INI file, we will talk about that later). Secondly, you can have different weapon stations (different StationIDs) occupy the same point in space. An example is if you have a weapon station able to carry a 2000 pound BOMB (length, weight, diameter parameters all met), it means it can also carry a large missile (a AGM-88 for example) because the missile meets those dimensional parameters and you have BOMB, ARM as your AllowedWeaponClass. The problem is, in real life, that aircraft can't carry large ARM missile there due to whatever, but can carry a small ARM. So how to allow both types of weapons? Simply duplicate the weapon station with a new StationID number. Keep the BOMB station with the 2000 lb limits, but shrink down the ARM weapon station limits to what you want if needed. The idea is in the loadout screen, it will only let you select one or the other, both with the proper dimensional limits. Now, with the LOADOUT.INI file, it will override the limits I stated above (ie you can load different weapons, or load 2 weapons in the same space) IF you do not fiddle with the loadout screen (ie accept the default weapons as listed in the LOADOUT.INI. So, for your case, you will need at least 3 seperate StationIDs (or in the Lancaster's case, up to 5). However, depending on your preference and the amount of StationGroupIDs available, you can make each StationID a seperate StationGroupID. Voila, you now can mix and match weapons in the same bomb bay. You will of course have to work out the individual AttachmentPosition coordinates. A couple of things though. 1) The sim does NOT work out visual deconfliction issues on individual weapons, between weapon stations, etc. In other words, if all your bombbay stations CAN carry 2000 bombs, but in real life, you couldn't cram all those weapons into a bay...the sim won't care. It will do it anyway if you tell it to in either the LOADOUT.INI or the loadout screen, and visually, it'll look like crap because the weapons will be all overlapped and running into each other (bad clipping issues). The way to combat this are to either limit which stations can carry what type of weapons (length, diameter, weight limits and/or SpecificStationCode parameter), or force the proper weapons into the proper bays using the LOADOUT.INI (which will be disregarded if you go into the loadout screen). 2) The sim has a bug where you will get the proper bombbay animation (under AI control) for multiple weapon stations ONLY if every station has it's own animation. In other words, if you are dropping bombs, the animations will always look right, even if you have the same animations for several weapon stations. However, your AI aircraft, if multiple weapon stations are sharing the same animation, only ONE of the weapon stations will get the proper animation. The other weapon stations will be dropping bombs/firing missiles through the weapon door...again, an immersion killer... There may be no way to step around this if you don't have access to the MAX file to fix it. Personally, I use dimensional limits to the max extent where possible, and a good readme with a great LOADOUT.INI where not. FC Quote
+Wrench Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 (edited) Yes you can. BUT... you'd need to create 'split' or duplicate stations at the pre-existing location of the bomb bay, adding the new SystemName=, plus the bombbay callout statements, and adjust the loadout ini accordingly. The best example would probably be the B-29. It has 2 physical bays on the model, but data ini 'splits' them into 3 internal units [bombBay1] SystemType=WEAPON_STATION StationID=1 StationGroupID=1 StationType=INTERNAL AttachmentPosition=0.0,1.250,-0.50 AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0 LoadLimit=31500 AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,NUC AttachmentType=USAF NumWeapons=18 AttachmentPosition001=-0.6,3.25,-1.0 AttachmentPosition002= 0.6,3.25,-1.0 DiameterLimit=1.0 LengthLimit=3.5 BombBayAnimationID=2 HasArmor=TRUE ArmorMaterial=STEEL Armor[FRONT].Thickness=6 Armor .Thickness=6 Armor .Thickness=6 Armor[REAR].Thickness=6 Armor[TOP].Thickness=6 Armor[bOTTOM].Thickness=6 [bombBay2] SystemType=WEAPON_STATION StationID=2 StationGroupID=2 StationType=INTERNAL AttachmentPosition=0.0,00.50,0.0 AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0 LoadLimit=31500 AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,NUC AttachmentType=USAF NumWeapons=8 AttachmentPosition001= -0.6,-1.5,-1.0 AttachmentPosition002= 0.6,-1.5,-1.0 DiameterLimit=1.0 LengthLimit=3.5 BombBayAnimationID=2 HasArmor=TRUE ArmorMaterial=STEEL Armor[FRONT].Thickness=6 Armor .Thickness=6 Armor .Thickness=6 Armor[REAR].Thickness=6 Armor[TOP].Thickness=6 Armor[bOTTOM].Thickness=6 [bombBay3] SystemType=WEAPON_STATION StationID=3 StationGroupID=3 StationType=INTERNAL AttachmentPosition=0.0,-0.50,0.0 AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0 LoadLimit=31500 AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,NUC AttachmentType=USAF NumWeapons=18 AttachmentPosition001=-0.6,-4.0,-1.0 AttachmentPosition002=0.6,-4.0,-1.0 DiameterLimit=1.0 LengthLimit=2.5 BombBayAnimationID=2 HasArmor=TRUE ArmorMaterial=STEEL Armor[FRONT].Thickness=6 Armor .Thickness=6 Armor .Thickness=6 Armor[REAR].Thickness=6 Armor[TOP].Thickness=6 Armor[bOTTOM].Thickness=6 and the loadout ini is set for 2 differnet types of bomb: Loadout[01].WeaponType=250lb_bomb Loadout[01].Quantity=10 Loadout[02].WeaponType=500lb_bomb Loadout[02].Quantity=4 Loadout[03].WeaponType=500lb_bomb Loadout[03].Quantity=6 So, for example the Wimpy wold be something like this: [bombBay] SystemType=WEAPON_STATION StationID=1 StationGroupID=1 StationType=INTERNAL AttachmentPosition=0.0,0.0,0.0 AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0 LoadLimit=4500 <- might need upping the max AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB AttachmentType=UK,USAF,NATO NumWeapons=8 AttachmentPosition001=-0.288,4.526,-0.332 AttachmentPosition002=0.319,4.526,-0.332 AttachmentPosition003=-0.288,2.29,-0.332 AttachmentPosition004=0.312,2.29,-0.332 AttachmentPosition005=-0.288,4.526,-0.332 AttachmentPosition006=0.319,4.526,-0.332 AttachmentPosition007=-0.288,2.29,-0.332 AttachmentPosition008=0.312,2.29,-0.332 <-- additional locations would need adding DiameterLimit=0.77 LengthLimit=2.8 BombBayAnimationID=8 BombBayOpenTime=2.0 BombBayCloseTime=2.0 [bombBay2] SystemType=WEAPON_STATION StationID=2 StationGroupID=1 <- maintins grooping so they can all drop together StationType=INTERNAL AttachmentPosition=0.0,0.0,0.0 AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0 LoadLimit=4500 AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,FT <-new weapon type AttachmentType=UK,USAF,NATO NumWeapons=8 AttachmentPosition001=-0.288,4.526,-0.332 AttachmentPosition002=0.319,4.526,-0.332 AttachmentPosition003=-0.288,2.29,-0.332 AttachmentPosition004=0.312,2.29,-0.332 AttachmentPosition005=-0.288,4.526,-0.332 AttachmentPosition006=0.319,4.526,-0.332 AttachmentPosition007=-0.288,2.29,-0.332 AttachmentPosition008=0.312,2.29,-0.332 DiameterLimit=0.77 LengthLimit=2.8 BombBayAnimationID=8 BombBayOpenTime=2.0 BombBayCloseTime=2.0 The hard part would be the bay fuel tank; I know the B-17 "Tokyo Tanks" were mounted on the bomb rack, but replaced any weapons as they were only used for ferry flights (watch the movie "Air Force", when the 'Mary Ann' get to Clark, they're releasing the straps that hold them in, and lowering the tanks out) The fuel tank would have to either exist 'vitrually' as a fake weapon; meaning no lod attached to it, existing in the weaponsdata ini, just loaded via loadout ini edits. If added via normal data ini edits, they'd be "there" all the time as another aux or main tank. somethng like this in the loadout ini: Loadout[01].WeaponType=RAF250 Loadout[01].Quantity=8 Loadout[02].WeaponType=FakeTank Loadout[02]=Quantity=1 the 'weapon' could be something like this (pardon the glitches in it, this 'off the cuff', so to speak) [WeaponData***] TypeName=FakeTank FullName=300 gal BombBay Tank ModelName=NoLod Mass=870.000000 Diameter=0.700000 Length=3.600000 AttachmentType= NationName= StartYear=0 EndYear=0 Availability=0 BaseQuantity=0 Exported=TRUE ExportStartYear=0 ExportEndYear=0 ExportAvailability=0 WeaponDataType=5 MaxFuelAmount=800.000000 Asymmetrical=FALSE Just ran into a similiar problem on the "production" B-49A; had to increas the bomb loads to something usefull, while still staying within the existing, physical bays, so I just cheated and just added 'new' stations with the same attachment positions as the original 4, doubling the number of weapons carried. Of course, had to up the max weight.. [bombBayL01] SystemType=WEAPON_STATION StationID=1 StationGroupID=1 StationType=INTERNAL AttachmentPosition=-8.5822,-0.1917,-0.0000 AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0 LoadLimit=6100 AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,NUC AttachmentType=USAF NumWeapons=8 AttachmentPosition001=-8.5822,-0.1917,-0.0000 AttachmentPosition002=-8.5822,-1.3909,-0.0000 AttachmentPosition003=-9.3134,-0.1917,-0.0000 AttachmentPosition004=-9.3134,-1.4201,-0.0000 original stations AttachmentPosition005=-8.5822,-0.1917,-0.0000 AttachmentPosition006=-8.5822,-1.3909,-0.0000 AttachmentPosition007=-9.3134,-0.1917,-0.0000 AttachmentPosition008=-9.3134,-1.4201,-0.0000 new duplicate stations DiameterLimit=1.0 LengthLimit=3.0 BombBayAnimationID=6 BombBayOpenTime=2.0 BombBayCloseTime=2.0 Hope that helps! btw, good to see you around again, Greg!! wrench kevin stein Edited December 11, 2009 by Wrench Quote
+gregoryp Posted December 12, 2009 Author Posted December 12, 2009 Thanks guys. What I’m doing is modifying my flight model program and want to try to cover all bases. The fighters were easy. The bombers require some thinking here. Which I knew would happen. So I can only have a max of 32 attachment points per StationID of AttachmentPosition001= Would it be better to do bomb configurations per bomb type and then populate it correctly via the loadouts file? For example: StationID=1 StationGroupID=1 StationType=INTERNAL 1 attacment point for the Ferry tank StationID=2 StationGroupID=1 StationType=INTERNAL 32 attachment points for the 100lbs bombs StationID=3 StationGroupID=1 StationType=INTERNAL 16 attachment points for the 500lbs bombs StationID=4 StationGroupID=1 StationType=INTERNAL 8 attachment points for the 1000lbs bombs StationID=5 StationGroupID=1 StationType=INTERNAL 4 attachment points for the 2000lbs bombs StationID=6 StationGroupID=1 StationType=INTERNAL 4 attachment points for the 2000lbs cookie bombs StationID=7 StationGroupID=1 StationType=INTERNAL 2 attachment points for the 4000lbs cookie bombs StationID=8 StationGroupID=1 StationType=INTERNAL 1 attachment point for the 8000lbs cookie bomb StationID=9 StationGroupID=1 StationType=INTERNAL 1 attachment point for the 12000lbs cookie bomb In the load out would be Loadout[03].WeaponType=500lbs Bomb Loadout[03].Quantity=8 Loadout[04].WeaponType=1000lbs Bomb Loadout[04].Quantity=2 Loadout[07].WeaponType=4000lbs Cookie Bomb Loadout[07].Quantity=2 And the animation would only show 500lbs bombs dropping out? Is it possible to define which attachment points are used for each? Is the order listed the order they drop out? Is there a way to set the order? Most of these loadouts put the aircraft over max gross weight so the aircraft has to carry less fuel to stay under max gross. Is there a way to set the amount of fuel carried for each ? Can you define your own mission types? [strike Extended Long Range], [strike Long Range], [strike Medium Range], [strike Short Range], [Ferry Flight]. Now the bomber down side. Most bomber engines were de-rated. So the R2800’s on the A-26 were limited to 1600hp (instead of 2000hp) in normal flight operations. Like most bombers there was a takeoff over boost rating of 2350hp available for takeoff to get you into the air and get the gear and flaps up. We can’t do this in SF, so takeoff runs will be long and may use a little dirt at the end. Still working on them. Got a ways to go. Quote
+gregoryp Posted December 13, 2009 Author Posted December 13, 2009 http://www.lancaster-archive.com/lanc_bomb_loads.htm This site has some detail on the different Lancaster bomb loads. Quote
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