Machine guns

[Flyby PC 23]

"Stoppages with designs that were Maxim-based, like the Vickers and Spandau, were common to the point of being routine. That is why aircraft designers of the Great War could never get away with burying the MG's for the sake of lowering drag and why nobody used wing-mounted MG's (save the almost experimental Dolphin mounting of Lewis') until the adoption of the Browning in the 1930s.

Bletchley

 

It's access for stoppages then, not drag which was critical.

 

If an aircraft could cope with a machine gun up top, or the asymetrical weapon pointing to the side, then two balanced weapons on either wing makes complete sense, aileron turns included. All you need is sufficient clearance to clear the propellor arc, so they're no further out along the wing from the centre than the top mounted gun was above it. Drag isn't negligible, but nor is it critical.

 

Regarding drag, I'm not an expert, but it strikes me guns mounted on the fuselage have the same surface area facing the direction of resistance as guns mounted on the wings. Guns on the wings would induce resistance through friction with the air naturally and may impact on lift, but guns on the fuselage would induce the same resistance plus the added coefficient of creating this resistance in the compressed airstream, or thrust vector, of the propellor. There might be variables I don't know about, but you could make the argument that in one capacity at least, wing mounted guns would reduce nett drag, not increase it. You're not talking a big factor here, if it was, or there would be cowlings over the muzzles. This mattered at 400mph, to the extent that Mosquitos in WW2 taped over their cannon ports, but at 100mph? Hmmm. Less convinced.

 

Stoppages are the problem, just as they were in WW2, but evidently much more likely. You could slide the guns along a rail which needn't be clumbermbersome, and could clear a stoppage before returning the gun to it's firing position. You're only talking a foot or so, depending on your propellor radius. It could be done, I have no doubt whatsoever, and weighing a lot less than a gunner.

 

Ammunition feed is no problem in one direction, but unless you mounted the gun upside down, one sides feed mechanism would be more complex than the other, but this would create minor asymetry, nothing more. The gun itself draws it's ammunition with it's feed paws, so the only 'mechanism' to speak of is containment of the ammunition and restricting it's movement and avoiding obstructions to ensure it reaches the breech in the right position for the feed paws to sieze hold of it.

 

Yes, any weapons system impacts on an aircrafts performance, but that's what it's all about with warplanes. Your aircraft is a weapons platform, and you strike the best balance between flight performance and payload delivery. If performance was so dented you didn't stand a chance in a dogfight, you could jettison your guns. But since the Air Ministry didn't trust you with a parachute to escape certain death, dropping your guns to run away might have been frowned upon too.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Flyby PC

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Bletchley wrote:

 

I think the button on the joystick is the 'blip switch'.

 

I don't believe so Sir, but I suppose it is possible. In numerous frist-hand writings from the period the Sopwith pilots talk about holding the control stick and having their thumb on the trigger "button". However, in Captain Norman MacMillan's 1929 work, "Into The Blue", he mentions two triggers, (but does not use the term "button"). Here is the excerpt:

 

"On September 10th I led five Camels on a patrol over Ypres. We had not been flying long over the lines, and were flying at 14,000 feet, when I saw below us a formation of enemy planes, made up of two DFW two-seaters protected by five Albatros Scouts. I had previously arranged that, in the event of encountering escorted aeroplanes, I should attack with one Camel, while the deputy leader and the other Camels were to remain above to protect our tails from attack. I swung our formation round above them from the north-easterly course we followed and dived for the two-seaters. Brownell came down in station. The remaining three Camels maintained their height.

 

Down I rushed through the crisp, cold air, watching my Hun through the sights, holding my control stick with both hands, thumbs resting on the double gun-triggers within the spade-shaped stick-top. The observer in my opponents bus saw me and I saw him swing his gun to bear. I saw the double flash of his shots even as he grew to personality in my sights and I pressed the fateful triggers. At the very first burst he crumbled up and fell backwards into the cockpit. My streams of lead poured into the fuselage of the plane around the pilot's cockpit and the DFW tipped up and over sideways and fell tumbling down.

I looked round for Brownell and saw him squarely on the tail of the second DFW, He pressed his triggers instinctively in a long burst. The Hun's tail rose upward. A curl of smoke came from the fuselage and he fell headlong, plunging like a flaming comet. Above us the three Camels kept the five Albatros Scouts engaged."

 

From this particular account one could assume there were two trigger thumb "levers" located within the opening of the control handle, thus leaving the button on the top bar as the blip switch, (though I've never seen such levers in any photos I've run across). I will keep digging because now I really want to know, and if I could find a good close-up shot of an orginal Camel stick it would likely put the issue to bed.

 

.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

WOO HOO! Success. Nick over at "The Aerodrome" had posted about a year-and-a-half ago the following pic from the Imperial War Museum which shows the entire Constantinesco CC fire control system, and stick, out of a Sopwith Snipe, (which should be about the same as the Camel and any other Sopwith kites of the era):

 

 

 

Bletchley, I am now quite sure you are correct Sir. The button on the top is the blip switch to control engine speed, while the two thumb levers control port and starboard guns respectively, which brings up another interesting tidbit I was not aware of: You could fire the MG's separately or together on the twin-gun Sopwiths. This also means von Baur was quite correct about the "looks" of that button being electrical in nature rather than mechanical.

 

 

Me so happy!

 

.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Feast or famine. Just located the following illustration of the Camel which shows the traditional triangular-shaped handle along with the blip button and dual trigger levers, (slightly different from the Snipe but still the same basic layout):

 

 

 

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

OMG!

 

 

I can now serve as the poster child for stupidity and inattentiveness. Next time any of you are in OFF, jump in a Camel and look down at the control stick. While the blip switch may not be there, the two thumb lever triggers most certainly are!

 

I will be laughing at myself over this one for a long, long time.

 

.

[Flyby PC 23]

That's obviously what was sadly lacking, a scottish stone mason to design the weapons systems for WWI aircraft. That's a real case of being born too late.

 

 

Well a Hawick man invented the Lee Enfield rifle, so you're not far wrong. (That makes a change).

 

One man's born too late is another man's lived too long.

 

Who mentioned electrics oh wise one?

[Olham 164]

OMG!

I can now serve as the poster child for stupidity and inattentiveness. Next time any of you are in OFF,

jump in a Camel and look down at the control stick. While the blip switch may not be there, the two thumb lever triggers most certainly are!

 

I will be laughing at myself over this one for a long, long time.

 

This could have been perfectly ME - I have a hand for such things, Lou - no need to be ashamed!

 

Have a close look at the S.E.5a at "Vintage Aviator" (S.E.5a walkaround) - it also had two firing buttons.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Not to worry Olham, I'm not ashamed, just having a great laugh at my own expense. Thanks for the heads-up on the SE5a firing triggers Sir, more good info to add to my ever-expanding knowledge base.

 

.

[Ironhat 0]

Speaking of hitting any thing with a mg, i have great difficulty hitting the Hun when flying the early Bristol fighter. That gun mounted out on the left side of the fuselage firing straight ahead. Why in heavens name did they choose that spot instead of on the upper wing on the center line ? That way at least the gun was firing along your line of sight. I get fewer kills in that ac than any other in the game so far. Darn good thing i never flew that in bird in real life against anyone with guns.

 

Maybe if i practice for 5 or 6 more hours in that crate i'll get more than 2 hits on the Hun.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Ironhat, the answer to your question about why they mounted the gun that way is painfully simple: they had no better way to do it at the time. The Foster mount had yet to be invented, and the French design for the interrupter gear from two years earlier had been shelved and forgotten about. Necessities of war can create some strange temporary solutions to problems.

 

.

[Ironhat 0]

Thanks guys for the info.

As for hitting anything in this ac the wire reference sounds like a good idea. Take a bit of the guess work out of it. I bow deeply to any rookie pilot who can stay alive over 17 hours in this thing. lol :)

[Olham 164]

Ironhat, I admire your exploring spirit! You must be the first pilot I saw here,

who tries to get somewhere with the Bristol.

I tried it several flights, to see how I could beat it in my Eindecker.

Once I had tried it, it was simple: don't let him get bind your right rearward angle.

Carry on, and show some reports/pics.

[Bullethead 12]

Speaking of hitting any thing with a mg, i have great difficulty hitting the Hun when flying the early Bristol fighter. That gun mounted out on the left side of the fuselage firing straight ahead.

 

Perhaps your problem is that the gun does NOT fire straight ahead. It fires off at an angle to the side, to clear the prop. It's on the aptly named "Strange" gun mount .

[Ironhat 0]

I'll be flying the Bristol some more in the near future.

 

Here is a pic i found of a Camel cockpit. What are the two levers? Surely they are not the gun triggers? They seem to some way be connected to the guns.

[Guest Sieben]

Nice picture. I think they work the bolts on the machine guns, to chamber the first round or clear a misfired round. All the discussion in this tread about moving guns onto the wings notwithstanding, I have to say those two guns sitting right there in front of the pilot look seriously up close and personal. Reach out and touch someone?

Edited February 14, 2010 by Sieben

[Bullethead 12]

Here is a pic i found of a Camel cockpit. What are the two levers?

 

They're to hang your fuzzy dice on.

[ConradB 0]

I'll be flying the Bristol some more in the near future.

 

Here is a pic i found of a Camel cockpit. What are the two levers? Surely they are not the gun triggers? They seem to some way be connected to the guns.

 

 

Those levers are for cocking the guns to prepare for firing.

[Olham 164]

Ironhat, on the Bristol, you got to fly behind and right of the enemy,

to line up gun and his craft. Or try gunsight (F6, I think it was?)

Edited February 14, 2010 by Olham

[Ironhat 0]

Ironhat, on the Bristol, you got to fly behind and right of the enemy,

to line up gun and his craft. Or try gunsight (F6, I think it was?)

 

Behind and right sounds about right. Most anything else seems to be a waste of ammo.

 

F6 is default cockpit view by the way, but thanks.

[Olham 164]

Well, then hit "escape" in flight and go to "controlls" to find out, what gunsight is.

I have changed most of my key commands.

[Ironhat 0]

Good plan, will do.

[Bullethead 12]

Behind and right sounds about right. Most anything else seems to be a waste of ammo.

 

F6 is default cockpit view by the way, but thanks.

 

Repeating myself because you seem to have missed it the 1st time.

 

It actually shoots behind and left, compared to the Bristol's flightpath. The gun is mounted to fire level with the fuselage in the vertical plane, but at about a 35^ angle off the to the left in the horizontal plane. IOW, the bullets go between your wings and just outboard of the 9 o-clock position of your prop's disk.

 

This type of mounting was called, aptly enough, the Strange mount. It was invented by Louis Strange after his near-death experience while trying to change the drum of a Lewis fixed to his upper wing, which he swore not to risk again. The Strange mounting was used in some numbers on many RFC planes of the period prior to the invention of the Foster mount.

 

Anyway, the bottom line is, do not point the Bristol at your target. You have to fly on a parallel course at the enemy's 4 o'clock to have any real hope of hitting him. If you have TIR, just aim along the gun. If you don't, you'll have to hit F6 repeatedly until it cycles the POV to aiming down the gun.

 

FYI, F6 cycles through a number of viewpoints inside the cockpit. The number and what they do vary from plane to plane, depending on the whims of whoever made the 3D model. All planes have a "flying" position and most have an "Iron Sight" position aiming down the gun barrel. There is also usually a view of the instrument panel, and perhaps of some of the instruments that are hard to see, such as the DFW's compass. Hitting F6 repeatedly moves your view through them all in order.

[Dej 17]

Repeating myself because you seem to have missed it the 1st time.

 

It actually shoots behind and left, compared to the Bristol's flightpath. The gun is mounted to fire level with the fuselage in the vertical plane, but at about a 35^ angle off the to the left in the horizontal plane. IOW, the bullets go between your wings and just outboard of the 9 o-clock position of your prop's disk.

 

 

I'll back that up. I've used the Bristol Scout quite a bit and once you get used to where the bullets go it's not hard to score hits, a sideslip to the right and firing left and upwards at that approx. 35 degrees worked well.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Dej