Historical-War Based Video Games ~ Good-Bad-Worthwhile?

[rabu 9]

I think of 'Revisionest History' when the textbooks that are given to our youth, state that Columbus and his men in 1492 Raped the Indians and Looted their villages. And Thomas Jefferson bor 5 black children out of wedlock

 

I don't consider out and out lies, as differences in viewpoints

 

Or one of my Favorites . . . Oral Sex isn't Sex . . . Run that one by your wife . . and you really might see differences in viewpoints

 

Depending on your wife's size, you might meet your carpet up close and personal, while you contemplate your throbbing testicals

 

Uncleal: Can we just stick to the thread and stop the political bashing? I don't want to see this one get closed too. Thanks,

[Volodnikov 0]

Personally, I am an absolute pacifist when it comes to real matters, yet I love reading military history and playing realistic PC games that revolve around warfare. Perhaps others would find that strange, but I feel a lot better playing games knowing that my actions aren't affecting anyone, whereas in war you often find countless lives affected in some negative way. I wish others could feel the same way, instead of thinking that Modern Warfare 2 is an accurate depiction of war.

[12oclockhigh 0]

I play violent video games because they are fun and no real harm comes from them. If I played for any other reason that would or should be cause for concern. Also for me it doesn't depend on the type of game as that would be implying there are some types of game violence more acceptable than others. I respectfully disagree with anyone who finds gaming violence acceptable because it is 'historical', someone who thinks the 'age' of the violence makes it more acceptable. The fact that a game is historical doesn't change the violence of the action, it only changes the date it occures. Bottom line is if I don't play a game for fun then on some level I'm playing it for real, and that's a little crazy. OFF is a fun FPS, a game where you fly your 'gun'. It's fun and that's why I play.

[Von Paulus 8]

We should probably distinguish gore from violence.

I'm ready to accept a certain level of violence, otherwise I wouldn't play OFF, any other combat sim or milsim.

What I dislike is extreme gore. For example when I played CoD World at War, the action takes place in WWII Pacific theater, the gore was excessive.

And I almost stop playing it, because of that. Flame throwers, Japanese heads jumping after a clean shot from a shotgun, well I really don't need that. I think I won't play any CoD anymore.

There most be a limit, and I really don't understand how some kids, and not only kids, can actually have fun with it. Something is wrong.

[zoomzoom 2]

Interesting points one and all. I detect a fascinating theme however throughout the flow of the thread, and it seems to really have far less to do with how WE percieve and are influenced by combat sims, and more to do with how children (young people) are.

With that in mind I can give you an answer that may not be popular, but is based on fact. No amount of stimulus or input from a sim (or any Sim yet devised by man) will create a negative outcome in someone. Thats the plain and simple truth.

 

Ok then....what will?

 

1. Checked out parents that don't do thier job raising thier children properly and instilling in them the proper values. (note, I didnt say perfect parents, cause they don't exist).

 

2nd. And less numerous but also a possibility...the psychologically disturbed.

 

 

These, and only these will produce the outcomes that are feared by those concerned about the violence in some sims/video games. The playing of some violent games may well be a symptom (an outlet if you will), but it is not the cause.

 

Now that being said ,do I still find myself concerned as a thinking man by the violence quantity I see in some of these. Why yes...of course. Case in point. When Assasins Creed first came out I played it. Graphics were great and there was a historical (fantasy based of course) but interesting story line. What made me quit 3/4 of the way through was that the whole game you just went around shanking people with a knife over and over. Good people, bad people...it didn't matter. And after a while....even though it was a game, it began to be distastefull to me. My son (at the time aged 12) wanted to play it. I said....ummm no. I explained to him why, and he took it well. He's a little older now....15, ,and about a year ago, I let him play it, and he was similarly irritated by the pointlessness of the killing involved. Don't know if I did the right thing, (I think so, but who can be sure completely) but at least there was input/dialogue/ and understandings were created about the thought process of right and wrong.

 

ZZ.

[zoomzoom 2]

Another case in point, just to add perspective,

 

When I was my sons age, and even younger. I would go out into the woods, (sometimes with my father, but later alone) stalk and find small animals, some larger animals even. By stealth draw close to them...often within a few feet (I was very good). Fire a bullet into thier skulls...killing them, then tear thier bloody skins off, disembowel them, drag this whole bloody mess back home, and later cook and eat it. Saving all parts for usage in some way, and wasting nothing, as is the proper respect for the life I just took. I somehow managed to grow up into a responsible, and as my wife likes to claim, decent adult. As did most if not all of our forbears. Don't know about you guys....but if thats possible, we may be over obsessing about the impact of some of these games.

 

Just a thought.

 

ZZ.

Edited April 13, 2010 by zoomzoom

[rabu 9]

Interesting points one and all. I detect a fascinating theme however throughout the flow of the thread, and it seems to really have far less to do with how WE percieve and are influenced by combat sims, and more to do with how children (young people) are.

With that in mind I can give you an answer that may not be popular, but is based on fact. No amount of stimulus or input from a sim (or any Sim yet devised by man) will create a negative outcome in someone. Thats the plain and simple truth.

 

Ok then....what will?

 

1. Checked out parents that don't do thier job raising thier children properly and instilling in them the proper values. (note, I didnt say perfect parents, cause they don't exist).

 

2nd. And less numerous but also a possibility...the psychologically disturbed.

 

 

These, and only these will produce the outcomes that are feared by those concerned about the violence in some sims/video games. The playing of some violent games may well be a symptom (an outlet if you will), but it is not the cause.

 

Now that being said ,do I still find myself concerned as a thinking man by the violence quantity I see in some of these. Why yes...of course. Case in point. When Assasins Creed first came out I played it. Graphics were great and there was a historical (fantasy based of course) but interesting story line. What made me quit 3/4 of the way through was that the whole game you just went around shanking people with a knife over and over. Good people, bad people...it didn't matter. And after a while....even though it was a game, it began to be distastefull to me. My son (at the time aged 12) wanted to play it. I said....ummm no. I explained to him why, and he took it well. He's a little older now....15, ,and about a year ago, I let him play it, and he was similarly irritated by the pointlessness of the killing involved. Don't know if I did the right thing, (I think so, but who can be sure completely) but at least there was input/dialogue/ and understandings were created about the thought process of right and wrong.

 

ZZ.

 

ZZ: Very good point and I think you handled it the right way. That's what bothers me about some of the "games" as well, the level of the graphic violence, whether it's an historical game or not, and worse, when the violence seems to be pointless and aimed at innocent people or animals. (Some of the music today encouraging violence against police really bothers me too.) Why make pointless slaughter out as being fun? Violence in a war game, is more acceptable, it's a war game, and I think if it's handled right, it can have tremendous effect, but I'm not sure if it has to be so graphic and up in ones face to accomplish it..

 

Like in the the BIA new game Hell's Highway, I started looking at some of the video from the game on the web site last night and I think they too went too far in the gore department, though the aspect of making it more personel, getting to know the team members I think is good.. I don't know.. seeing a guy blown apart in a video game is pretty effective at showing you the horror of war, but do I need to see every detail to get the point? ..I've seen the same in real life, and I couldn't play it over or turn it down, but I think, like in Mafia, I think I would turn the gore slidder down in BIA, if it has one, and if I had younger kids, I wouldn't let them play or see a game like that, or, especially, like the one you mentioned where it throws cruality on top of everything.

Edited April 13, 2010 by rabu

[OvS 8]

Another case in point, just to add perspective,

 

When I was my sons age, and even younger. I would go out into the woods, (sometimes with my father, but later alone) stalk and find small animals, some larger animals even. By stealth draw close to them...often within a few feet (I was very good). Fire a bullet into thier skulls...killing them, then tear thier bloody skins off, disembowel them, drag this whole bloody mess back home, and later cook and eat it. Saving all parts for usage in some way, and wasting nothing, as is the proper respect for the life I just took. I somehow managed to grow up into a responsible, and as my wife likes to claim, decent adult. As did most if not all of our forbears. Don't know about you guys....but if thats possible, we may be over obsessing about the impact of some of these games.

 

Just a thought.

 

ZZ.

 

I don't think so, you can see it all over the news now. These games have become so realistic that you can litterly walk away from playing them with a sense and BASIC understanding of how to use weapons, creep into shadows, stalking tactics, what weapons do... etc.

 

When we were kids, we used wood rifles and played 'Army'. Now kids the same age are wired into headsets all over the world and violently flogging each other to death on COD5. Tell me that's not some form of training.

 

The US Army actually commisioned America's Army for just that purpose, so you can see if you have the basic interest in soldiering as a career.

 

 

But straight to the root... "1. Checked out parents that don't do thier job raising thier children properly and instilling in them the proper values. (note, I didnt say perfect parents, cause they don't exist)." this statement says it all.

 

We have to raise our kids, not let a XBox, PS3 or Wii teach them about life. I mean, I watched WWII movies on Sundays. Played Intellivision games, and blew a life savings on Robotron. It was innocent, there was very little violence in my life (until the Deer Hunter came on HBO). But in comparison, the same age today, it's a world of difference. We can't be checked-out when it comes to our kids.

 

I don't have a big house, but I built a room in my basement, well 2 really... a Craft Room, and a mini-Arcade. The Craft Room has everything from Michaels and other craft stores you need to have a full scale art class for 10+ kids at once. Paints, glue stuff... wood, you name it... the kids LOVE it, even at 14 years old, my older nieces and nephews love it. It's a room dedicated to being creative. I even nailed white wall board to one wall so they can draw all over the wall with dry erase markers... anything goes! Sloppy and all.

 

The Mini-arcade holds my 3 MAME machines, and now an old TV and stand. On the arcade machines, there are NO fighting games like Mortal Kombat, Kind Of Fighters, etc... nothing... all 80's and 70's classics. The TV has no signal to wath TV, but has an Intellivision, Atari 2600, and Colecovision.

 

On top of it, is the Wii. Nothing violent... all sports, and exploring games.

 

You have to raise them this way, and keep the crap out... YOU buy it for them... YOU should know what the hell you're buying.

 

This is like all those people that want to sue MickeyD's for using Ronald McDonald as an kids icon.... what the hell... you're driving them to the place... say NO more often than yes.

 

We only have ourselves to blame for the violent tendencies of our kids... pull the plugs, disconnect the computers... etc. Get them out of the house... and I don't mean just on organized sports... jeeze.. there's now too much of that as well. I mean, get them out in the yard digging holes, picking up worms, pulling off bark on trees, picking up slabs to see the ants... there is no reason on this earth that a 12 year old CHILD should have a cell-phone, texting and know how to snipe an enemy at 400yds.

 

Want to really have fun... go on eBay and look-up some of those old Coleco and Mattel Electronics hand-held sports games, you know... the little red lights (get the originals, the newer reproduction ones suck). Give one two your son/daughter, and tell them to try it out. I let my 11 year old nephew play my Baseball game... he dumped his PSP for it. He could not stop playing it all night. It was fun to see him use a little imagination with the "players" and such.

 

OvS

Edited April 13, 2010 by OvS

[zoomzoom 2]

"I don't think so, you can see it all over the news now. These games have become so realistic that you can litterly walk away from playing them with a sense and BASIC understanding of how to use weapons, creep into shadows, stalking tactics, what weapons do... etc.

 

Now kids the same age are wired into headsets all over the world and violently flogging each other to death on COD5. Tell me that's not some form of training."

 

And this would be, in my estimation....indicative of "Checked Out Parents".

 

ZZ.

 

Ps. OVS. Your game room sounds awesome! ; )

[Von Paulus 8]

I agree with you ZZ and rabu. Besides there's also an aspect, which Catch has called of Desensitization, that is worring me a little.

This side effect it's not exclusive from video games, but TV news, and thinking well, all industry of entertainment is helping in growing it.

This industry is gradually loosing a certain purpose and sense of "education" besides being only "pure entertainment".

I wonder how a movie, a masterpiece, like "The Searchers" from John Ford, how would it be remade today.

 

EDIT: OvS, 3 mame machines that's really great. Defender and Robotron...

Edited April 13, 2010 by Von Paulus

[OvS 8]

Good way to put it...

 

"Desensitization"

 

There is plenty of evidence out there to prove it, and you don't even have to go very far to find it.

 

OvS

[Volodnikov 0]

Yes, desensitization is exactly it. I'm 19, so as a teenager I'm around people who enjoy Modern Warfare and similar games almost to the point of obsession, and it disturbed me when I overheard students enrolled in the JROTC program expressing how much they want to get into combat and fire a gun at someone. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I've always been under the impression that men fought WWII for matters that could decide the fate of the world, yet now it seems like a certain amount of kids want to enlist so they can experience all the things they saw in Call of Duty. I can imagine that the realization of war is immense and psychologically overwhelming, yet I can't even begin to think about how much that realization can be magnified if you are first under the impression that you are immortal and that killing is no big deal.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Personally...I am more concerned about Violent TV / Film Images than computer games.

This may change, as Computer Graphics get more advanced I guess...but these hideously Violent movies are what I try to keep my Kid away from.....I often fail to see the thrill people experience from watching Rape and Torture in a film...I can't help but think there is something 'Not quite right' about people who get off on that.

 

As for Kids playing COD Modern Warfare...and then desperate to go and try kill someone...well...thats what the Army is for.....but if they get their legs blown off...they better not come running to me!

[12oclockhigh 0]

Violent crime rates have dropped in North America for the last twenty years. If this trend continues we'll have crime rates as a percentage of population like they had in the fifties. Yet video game usage and graphic violence has grown tremendously in the same period. There's just no correlation. As for today's youth I meet young people every day who impress me and leave me with hope for the future, not dispair.

[12oclockhigh 0]

Funny thing I seem to recall murders and rapes being up while muggings are definately down, but I don't have any statistics to link to. Meaning I can't prove my facts legit. As we know without facts, we're only dealing in feelings

 

 

These facts are easy enough to check out.

[rabu 9]

I agree with you ZZ and rabu. Besides there's also an aspect, which Catch has called of Desensitization, that is worring me a little.

This side effect it's not exclusive from video games, but TV news, and thinking well, all industry of entertainment is helping in growing it.

This industry is gradually loosing a certain purpose and sense of "education" besides being only "pure entertainment".

I wonder how a movie, a masterpiece, like "The Searchers" from John Ford, how would it be remade today.

 

EDIT: OvS, 3 mame machines that's really great. Defender and Robotron...

 

The "Desensitization" issue worries me in the news too. The world gets smaller, but as people are exposed to more and more problems through instant, and often graphic news, and "reality shows," they seem to just tune out the problems or become cold to it all. I think a big part of this is not thinking they can do much, and they're right in many ways, but I fear that as things get worse, they are going to get much worse.

 

Maybe violent games are just part of the process of preparing our youth for a much more violent future then we have even experienced in the past.. Wars have steadily moved away from confrontations to stab you in the back attacks, with no concern whether the targets are civilians of any age or soldier status... true terrorism, in it's worst sense. ..back to the source, the greed thread.

[12oclockhigh 0]

Please check your own, even it it's just to make yourself feel . . warm and fuzzy. Most times on a public forum, you provide the facts to back up your claims, or is that to much to ask

 

Myself . . . I couldn't care less about actual crime rate . . or . .the cause and effect of said crime rate

 

What's done is done. . . Whatever you or I say, will have no effect

 

I just object to someone running their mouth in that manner

 

Myself . . . I couldn't care less about actual crime rate . . or . .the cause and effect of said crime rate

 

 

 

Somehow, I'm not surprised by that.

[zoomzoom 2]

Maybe violent games are just part of the process of preparing our youth for a much more violent future then we have even experienced in the past.. Wars have steadily moved away from confrontations to stab you in the back attacks, with no concern whether the targets are civilians of any age or soldier status

 

This is an interesting point, and harkens me back to a method used (we would call it barbaric today) by some nomadic and ancient tribes thousands of years ago. When there was a crisis between groups, they would arm the leaders of each tribe, usually ranging from 1 to 4 of the top men who after all were the leaders, so therfore responsible for managing the dispute from the start. Put them in a ring, or some confined area, and while everyone watched, those individuals in a fair fight, settled that dispute, they didn't HAVE to fight now mind you, and sometimes through verbal exchange, and without massive loss of life, the dispute was resolved. You see, things change considerably, and negotiations become quite different, when one's OWN NECK ison the line. Would'a made WWI look quite a bit different....don't you think?

 

ZZ.

[12oclockhigh 0]

Amazing that you never offered proof of your statements . . . Although not really amazing at all . . .Actually, it's about par for the course . . corner a Liberal, that's what you learn to expect

 

 

A lot of people have made statements on this thread without offering proof, yourself included. Do you want to be check facts for yourself as I suggested or is spoonfeeding more your style?

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Oh goody.... A Joust!

(something to keep me amused whilst awaiting P4)

Edited April 14, 2010 by UK_Widowmaker

[zoomzoom 2]

Oh goody.... A Joust!

(something to keep me amused whilst awaiting P4)

 

 

Widow you are too funny.

 

ZZ.

[rabu 9]

Maybe violent games are just part of the process of preparing our youth for a much more violent future then we have even experienced in the past.. Wars have steadily moved away from confrontations to stab you in the back attacks, with no concern whether the targets are civilians of any age or soldier status

 

This is an interesting point, and harkens me back to a method used (we would call it barbaric today) by some nomadic and ancient tribes thousands of years ago. When there was a crisis between groups, they would arm the leaders of each tribe, usually ranging from 1 to 4 of the top men who after all were the leaders, so therfore responsible for managing the dispute from the start. Put them in a ring, or some confined area, and while everyone watched, those individuals in a fair fight, settled that dispute, they didn't HAVE to fight now mind you, and sometimes through verbal exchange, and without massive loss of life, the dispute was resolved. You see, things change considerably, and negotiations become quite different, when one's OWN NECK ison the line. Would'a made WWI look quite a bit different....don't you think?

 

ZZ.

 

Very interesting, but I'm afraid, in this country, we would have a bunch of pumpped up politicians like Schwartzineger (sp?) And the new popular TV shows would be seeing them in a ring together. Would be great if it worked though.

[zoomzoom 2]

Very interesting, but I'm afraid, in this country, we would have a bunch of pumpped up politicians like Schwartzineger (sp?) And the new popular TV shows would be seeing them in a ring together. Would be great if it worked though.

 

Hehe, actually, I'd think I'd watch that!!

 

ZZ.

 

PS... We could call it the IDIC....International Dispute Intervention Channel!

 

Hey! its kinda close to "idiotic". We need to tweak the acronymn a bit.

Edited April 14, 2010 by zoomzoom

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Watch the movie 'Running Man' an old Governator flick, you'll probably enjoy it, in more ways than one.

 

Funny how yesterday's fantasy's, can become today's facts

 

I live in hope...that my Keira Knightley fantasy I had yesterday, with her...me...and an industrial drum of Vanilla Ice Cream, becomes today's facts!!

Edited April 14, 2010 by UK_Widowmaker

[12oclockhigh 0]

I don't enter pissing contests while Jousting...rusts the armour you know.