No kill like a guns kill

[+streakeagle 871]

I haven't played LOMAC in years as I much prefer Vietnam era jet combat, but the release of FC2 has got my attention. I got my joystick mapped (prior to FC2 I played using their default config, but FC2 doesn't seem to support that anymore). I started with 1v1 MiG-23 and smoked him easily as the F-15 just plane out turns him, especially with speed above 300 KIAS. I feared the MiG-29 would be dramatically harder, but I did a split-s to get my speed up, got a visual on him and pulled enough lead to kill him. The Su-27 was what I thought the MiG-29 would be. First try, the Su-27 got me as easily as I got the MiG-23. He just pulled around and shot me. However, I stomped the Su-27 second time around. After split-s, I could see the Su-27 on my tail and very close. I chopped my throttle, got him into my port forward quarter, pulled the necessary lead, and toasted him.

 

While the operation of the radar is more detailed and realistic than SF2, in this guns only mode the flight modeling and gameplay feels about the same with similar results. The graphics are definitely a bit better in FC2. If this sim modeled the F-4 Phantom and MiG-21 as well as the F-15 and Su-27, I don't think I would be playing SF2 very much any more. But, I know from LOMAC/FC1 that once you start using AIM-120s and fighting Su-27s with equivalent missiles, the game becomes more about evading radar and/or missiles. I much prefer SF2's era that almost always turns into a close in dogfight. SF2's technical detail and realism may be a bit simplified, but the dogfights are quite fun. Having a lot less buttons to deal with makes it easier to maintain proficiency with the SF2 series.

[jomni 6]

Haven't played LOMAC but are campaigns dynamic?

I hear they are scripted linked missions like IL-2.

I realy dislike this.

[JediMaster 451]

Yes, scripted linked missions. A dynamic campaign was talked about for LOMAC since before its release in 2002 or 3 or whenever it was.

However, Il-2 does have dynamic campaigns, they're just...not that dynamic and I find them tedious. If LOMAC had an engine like that, I wouldn't be happy with it either.

That said, there are some great 3rd party campaigns you can DL out there for LOMAC.

[jomni 6]

Anyway, looks like LOMAC has a superb mission editor to compensate.

But I still like the idea of jumping in a "random" mission like in SF2 better.

LOMAC's definitely in my radar from now on...

[+streakeagle 871]

Completed the 1 vs 2 DACT.

Cleaned the pair of MiG-23s clocks with no resistance.

Had to play MiG-29s twice, 2nd time got into a really good groove and smoked them both quickly.

Su-27s almost went down on the first try, but I lacked the finesse I needed when I dropped my nose in a stall and missed the shot. By the 4th try, I killed the first one as fast as a MiG-29 and didn't take too much longer to get the 2nd Flanker.

 

I am guessing the pilot quality in the opposing aircraft is dumbed down slightly for training purposes in these missions? or is there a setting I am missing where I can increase the AI skill level? I don't think I should have even a 50/50 chance against a MiG-29 in a knife fight and I can beat a pair of much superior Flankers, too. If by chance this is the best the AI can do, I think SF2 is much better than FC2 in dogfighting AI. Now, I could see that the Flankers were very maneuverable, but they didn't take advantage of it very well nor did they take advantage of 2vs1 tactics very well. They should split well before the merge and force me to pick one or the other or fly straight through. Instead, they only split after the merge. If I take too long to kill the first one, the 2nd will convert on to my tail and kill me. But the AI seem far too susceptible to being suckered into an overshoot while leaving me with plenty of energy to paste them with gunfire after they slip into my forward quarter.

 

Tomorrow, I will try to complete all of the heaters only DACT missions. I expect I will get clobbered in that unless I learn how to employ flares correctly.

[+streakeagle 871]

I completed the 1v1 heaters only.

 

The MiG-23 got my several times before I solved my problem. I had rear aspect AIM-9Ps vs all-aspect R-60Ms, so I had to survive the merge to position for a shot. Performing missile avoidance tactics made it difficult for me to maintain visual contact. I would merge, lose sight of the MiG-23, then end up getting shot while circling/looping to look for him. Or, while maintaining visual contact I would get hit by one or more R-60Ms. Finally, I learned to zoom in visually and use trackIR to maintain visual as I dove low in idle tossing chaff and flares, after the merge, I select afterburner and pull through the vertical, then look for the small dot moving against the terrain. If I spot him, I out perform him, line up for a tail aspect, and win with a single AIM-9P shot.

 

The MiG-29 got me first time, but all the practice against the MiG-23 ensured that I nailed the MiG-29 on the 2nd try using the exact same formula.

 

The Su-27 brought a new surprise: armed with R-73s, but I gained AIM-9Ms. First try, I dodged two R-73s, but as I realized I had AIM-9Ms and nosed back up for a point blank face shot, I died of a point blank R-73 face shot. Second try, I knew I had AIM-9Ms, dodged two R-73s and scored an AIM-9M face shot at point blank range. He never even had a chance to pop a flare.

 

As I had expected, FC2 plays the same as its predecessors once missiles are back in the fight. The entire fight is about correctly employing missile avoidance maneuvers. If you can master that, then the focus shifts back to the fun twisty close-in dogfights.

[+streakeagle 871]

OK, I have reached the fun limit of FC2 for me playing 1 vs. 2 heater only missions.

 

The MiG-23s were nearly impossible to beat. You cannot stay out of firing parameters for both and can't make a mistake in terms of throttle, flares, altitude or you get popped by an R-60M. I did beat them, but it took quite a few tries to get to the point where I could kill one without the other killing me immediately afterwards. The 2nd MiG-23 was always right on my butt while I was shooting the first, so I learned to go to idle and pull g to bleed speed. Forced the overshoot, killed him with my choice of guns or heater. I could get the AI to go for this every time, but I still had a high probability of getting popped by an R-60M.

 

The MiG-29s were even more difficult: add helmet mounted sights with off-boresight capability and much greater maneuverability. The whole time you are tracking/killing one, you need to be popping flares and even then you will get killed by the one of the two before even killing one of them quite a bit of the time. I can dodge about 3 out of 4 R-60Ms, but they each carry four, so typically they have fired 1 to 5 R-60Ms by the time I am dead. I did "win" one time by hosing the first one quickly with a solid gun burst then snapping up the other one with a heater. But, after quitting, I discovered the guns kill wasn't a kill yet. I didn't see him flying around anywhere, but he had not hit the ground yet.

 

The AI did not impress me that much with 1 vs 2 gunfights, but with R-60Ms, they are pretty damn mean. The only problem is, realistic or not, it is no fun to get popped almost every fight. I want to dogfight, not fly around near the ground at idle popping flares steadily until I get blindsided by an R-60M.

[+streakeagle 871]

It would appear that I was smoking the AI in gun combat because the F-15 was turnning better than it should below Mach 0.4, as this was a fix in the new patch. Will try it again after patching and see if there is any difference in the results.

[jomni 6]

Have you tried 2v2 BVR? As most fights in the campaign would be BVR, I plan to master this more than anything else.

 

I am able to hold out in 1v1. Easy to put the bogey on the defensive by firing a salvo of AIM-120. Then move in for the kill with the remaining missiles.

 

But 2v2 is problem. I am not able to employ my wingman properly and we get toasted. I used "cover" or "attack my target" commands but he still dies without doing much. I can usually get to kill one of them but the other survives and attacks me eventually.

 

Any tips would be appreciated.

 

Agree with your comment about the fun factor. I get frustrated at times especially with the A-10 mission. Spotting ground targets and getting a valid lock with Mavs is hard. And you're very vulnerable to AA. What happened to the SEAD? But the game is not as frustrating as Falcon4.

Edited May 10, 2010 by jomni

[+streakeagle 871]

I was working my way up to BVR. If I can't get past IRMs, how am I ever going to handle BVR? Helmet mounted sights give the MiGs an edge. They can fire when they otherwise couldn't because their nose can't pitch up enough. The patch didn't make a huge difference, but it is noticable. It took me longer to come around on the MiG-23 and MiG-29 if I let my speed bleed down, but I still win almost uncontested. The Su-27 is where I really felt the difference. Got smoked twice before I managed a 1 vs 1 gun kill. In reality, I wouldn't expect an F-15 to ever get his guns on an Su-27 unless during a head-on pass, or the Su-27 lost siutational awareness. But I can clearly force him to overshoot and hold him in front of me long enough to generate lead for solid kill shots if I don't lose sight of the Su-27 after the initial pass. I enjoy the guns only fighting enough that I would buy and play this sim soley for this purpose. The terrain looks awesome.