WW II Torpedo Guidance/Capability

[DARoot 6]

Greetings, Gentlemen (and, any lady Propheads out there).

 

I am curious as to what others are doing/thinking regarding use of aerial torpedoes in WW II mods for SF2.

- In my SFP1 (06 patch level) PTO mod, torpedoes are classed as "GuidanceType=5/EOGR" weapons (but, apparently sometimes your AI wingmen seem to not know what to do with them);

- The DAT A-Team's "all-inclusive" SF2_PTO mega-mod for SF2 (using the SF2 NA executable) classifies torpedoes as "GuidanceType=1/WGR" weapons;

- Torpedoes, per se, are not implemented in Thirdwire's default weapons for SF2 NA [well, ok, SF2 NA merged], but they do have anti-ship ("GuidanceType=7/ASM") missiles implemented.

 

Well, all of these parameters are freely editable by us End-Users. And we have many newly-implemented alternate choices available now.

 

So, I was just wondering what parameters others have chosen to use, to suit themselves and their own preferences, to best duplicate (for them) the "feel" of using torpedoes in their own WW II PTO installs.

 

Please, share your thoughts.

 

DARoot

Edited April 13, 2014 by DARoot

[Wrench 9,846]

search this forum for more information; someone else has asked that question before and I answered it.

 

also, several (mainstream) mods already exist for torps for SF2.

All the torps in the mods I've uploaded over the last 2 years or so work just fine.

 

and the real answer:

 

CM

 

I'd look at the Beaufighters Cocas and I did, plus the Upgrade pak on the DAT Beaufort (ETO)

[DARoot 6]

Thank You, Wrench, for your response.

However, you may have gotten the wrong impression about what I was intending to get at with this thread, so I guess I should clarify a
few things right away --

- I did see your previous post, but it was more about how to USE torpedoes, rather than how they are set up to be used in-game.
[Those of us who are veterans of "Aces of the Pacific" and "1942 - PAW" are already familiar with the "historically-correct" [if
somewhat suicidal] method used when making torpedo attacks in WW II]. Portraying that in the SF2 GAME, subject to its limitations, is what I
intended to encourage discussion about.

Example: In theory, laser-guided weapons (LGR, LGB) require the target to be "painted" by a laser designator, so the weapon can "home"
in on it.  In Thirdwire's Gen 1 sims, this wasn't fully implemented. In the Gen 2 SF series, it more-or-less is. What this means is, in
the SF2 X (July 2013 builds) series, it is "assumed" that your Primary Target [the one that shows up in your HUD automatically, when you
get near your Mission Objective point] is being "illuminated" by friendly ground forces, or some other friendly asset, so you [and your
AI wingmates] can attack it with your LGR weapons. However, if your plane is NOT carrying its own Laser Designator, you CANNOT just
designate any ol' "target of opportunity" and expect your LGRs to lock onto it.

So, the "proper use" of the weapons available greatly depends upon the weapon's in-game parameters, and how the new SF2 game engine
works.

[incidentally, I also saw your post to Veltro2k, when he was trying to mount torpedoes on his SM79 WIP -

-------------------------------------
Wrench 
Known As Bob
MODERATOR
Posted 25 May 2013 - 03:18:25 PM

 

mine all work

 

of course, I cheated (look at the Beaufighters/Beaufort recently released...) and used ALL the possible callouts.

..

[CenterStation]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=11
StationGroupID=3
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition=0.0000,-0.1152,-0.6757
AttachmentAngles=0.30,0.0,0.0
LoadLimit=760.0
AllowedWeaponClass=IOGR,LGR,EOGR,CGR,WGR,CM
AttachmentType=UK
ModelNodeName=Pylon_C
PylonMass=40
PylondragArea=0.02
------------------------------------

 

Furthermore, laser guided weapons [Guidancetype=4] require that the target remain "illuminated" [e.g., keep it in your HUD view] until

the weapon impacts.

 

So, what? We didn't have those in WW II.

Well, we don't have air-to-ground targeting radar implemented in (more modern) SF2 either, so we have to "fake" any radar-guided air-

to-ground weapon systems for the more modern eras, by using the in-game parameters we have available in SF2 today. Same for WW II weapons.

 

- Given that there are no active or semi-active radar-, laser-, wire-,IR-, TV-, or other such systems available in WW II weapons, the

issue is what's the best way to "fake" it to make them perform as you might want, given the way the game engine does use those

parameters.

 

- Different people may have different ideas about this. THAT is what I'm getting at.

I just want to hear what other End-Users have to say about it.

 

My initial post gave two examples for WW II torpedoes -- "GuidanceType=5/EOGR" in SF Gen 1, and "Guidance Type=1/WGR" from the DAT A-

Team's PTO mod. As well as an example of the "default" SF2 NA (July 2013 build) for ASM missiles, "GuidanceType=7/ASM" [which is also,

by the way, used for the DAT A-Team's Okha piloted suicide bomb].

 

- With the additional (editable) choices now available, what works best (for any given End-User) with WW II torpedoes, in their humble

opinion?

 

Well, Wrench, I took your advice and downloaded your recent Australian Beaufighter Mk1c, and checked how you had it set up.
- You are using "GuidanceType=5/IOGR,LGR,EOGR,CGR,WGR,CM" and it "..Works for you.."
*Ahem*
That's what I was looking for.
[And incidentally, I do not know what "CM" is supposed to mean, so that sentiment got lost in translation].

 

And by the way, that brings up another point:
[Hey, this is MY thread, so I can wander off-topic or tangentially if I want to.]
Your Beaufighter package includes new Weapons folders for the UK "MkXII_Torpedo" and the U.S. "Mk13Torpedo" (as well as other stuff).
Both use "GuidanceType=5," consistent with how you have your Beaufighter's Weapon Station "AllowedWeaponClass= " set up. 
They would, of course, NOT work with the default DAT A-Team's PTO mod, but only with your add-on plane. [since all the DAT A-Team's

torpedo-carrying Allied aircraft only allow "WGR" in their weapon station entries].

 

But, you are an accomplished and experienced modder [and, if I'm not mistaken, part of the DAT A-Team group that produced their PTO

mega-mod in the first place], and RE-NAMED your weapon folders (e.g., "Mk13Torpedo") so as not to overwrite the existing DAT A-Team

weapons (e.g., "Mk13 Torpedo").

 

You (and other Readers), I trust, see the potential problems here.
Had you not done so, some unsuspecting End-User (who, maybe didn't read the ReadMe thoroughly, or make Backups) could (potentially)

discover that, after installing their new plane, none of their other DAT A-Team UK,ANZAC, or US planes have torpedoes (because they've

overwritten the original weapon data with new data that is inconsistent).

 

Lesson here for other Modders.

And, perhaps, another valid reason for initiating this discussion.

 

I do not want to "seed" this discussion (yet) with my own ideas about WW II torpedoes.
I'd rather hear what other people have to say first.

 

DARoot

 

 

[Wrench 9,846]

AOTP was a LOT of fun in it's day! Wish we had a Win7, modern version!!

 

I haven't worked with the DAT for QUITE a number of years.

 

Everything we do here, is for stuff that's available HERE. For the most part, as many people cannot access their downloads (for a myriad of reason not relevant here), we try to "pretend" those don't exist. It's NOT a good idea to mix an match their stuff with ours. Unless one is into heavily editing the relevant data inis.

 

the allowed types is a left over from SF1 days; some of us (me included) are simply to lazy to edit them down.

 

I take you don't have SF2NA?? "CM" is Cruise Missile, coding for which was added when NA came out.

If you look at the TOP the Beaus data ini, you'll find the AI statement for CruiseMissile attack profiles, suitably edited for close-in WW2 torp types.

 

WGR, obviously is "wire guided rocket"

CGR is "command guided rocket" (think Bullpup)

EOGR is "electro-opticaly guided rocket" (think of TV Bullpup)

IOGR is "infra-red opticaly guided rocket" (prolly like a Maverick)

 

Most of which don't seem to require a 'screen' (as seen on the stock F-100D with Bullpups, or the DLC Swiss Hunter with Mavericks). the various dlls will take care of the guidance parameters, as set in the weapon's data ini

 

The spaces were removed the MK.13 a couple of reasons:

SF2 hates spaces in the folder and ini names

and to not conflict with others

 

I think I understand what you're after. But basically it comes down to a very simple statement we used quite a lot in the shop (garage) where I worked for a long time:

 

"If it works, don't fix it"

[DARoot 6]

Okie-Dokie, now we gettin' someplace!

 

What I was really looking for in this thread was sort of a poll...
What are other people using, why are they using it, and how well does it work for them, in the new SF2 environment.

 

I was expecting responses sort of like these --

 

Reader A: "I'm using the XYZ Weapons Pack for SF2. It has torpedoes set up as "GuidanceType=nnn" and "AllowedWeaponsClass=ABC,DEF,PDQ."   I have no problems with it, and my wingmen (and the Enemy AI) seem to use the torpedoes OK.  I get about 80% hit probability with them."
 
Or Reader B: "I also have the DAT A-Team's PTO mod, but I could never hit anything with their torpedoes, so I changed all the data

entries to what I was used to in my SFP1 PTO install [Right after I ditched their "quasi-Japanese" in-game radio chatter].  Now I'm a

happy camper.  "GuidanceType=1" / "WGR" never made any sense to me, since for TOW-type weapons it's suicidal to try to keep the target

centered in the HUD until weapon impact, when used with proper torpedo launch methods.  What were they thinking?"

 

Or even Reader C: "I don't have a WW II PTO install, but I do use the Tu-16T Badger in my SF2 install, carrying the RAT-52 Soviet

torpedo, which is set up as "GuidanceType=3" / "CGR,EOGR" and it works fine for me, and my wingmen."

 

To be honest, I've already "edited" my own SF2 PTO install to set up torpedoes to my own personal preferences, so I'm not intending to

"look for help" with this thread. [However, I can always be persuaded to change my setup, if someone posts some good ideas].
Rather, I wanted to provide a thread that others can look to for reference and guidance when setting up THEIR game for torpedo attacks

and usage.

 

Well, OK, So ...

Your [Wrench, with Cocas] Australian Beaufighter has these entries at the TOP of it's "_Data.ini" file:

 

SecondaryRoles=CAS,ARMED_RECON,RECON,ESCORT,CRUISE_MISSILE

 

and

 

[CruiseMissileAI]
ReleaseRange=3000.0
ReleaseAlt=50.0
ReleaseInterval=6.0

 

and later, under [CenterStation]

 

AllowedWeaponClass=IOGR,LGR,EOGR,CGR,WGR,CM

 

So, now we got some more parameters to consider.

Any additional information you (or others) would care to contribute concerning these parameters would be greatly appreciated here.

 

--------------------------------------------------
[Casual Readers may wish to skip this next section, since it is primarily addressing Wrench's recent comments, and may be only

tangentially relevant to the subject of my Original Post.  But, since it's only me and Wrench here at the moment, and this is MY thread,

I shall proceed anyway...]
 
I hope you (and other Casual Readers who may have ignored the above warning) will forgive my ignorance. I only recently (7 April 2014)

moved up to the SF2 series, and have not yet had time to read every post in every thread in every Community Forum devoted to the SF2

series, nor have I yet had extensive in-game experience with the SF2 series. [Most of my experience has been with the SFP1/FE titles,

and the mods made for them. And First Eagles 2 is still my favorite]. I'll eventually get to them all. But the SF1 and SF2 titles have

many differences (in more ways than native Vista/Win 7 support, and graphics engine).

 

"CM" is a good illustration.
Yes, of course I have SF2 NA [most everything you, and other modders, have released for SF2 PTO setups recommend, if not require, it].
But nowhere in the documentation that came with it [or, so far, have I found on the Thirdwire Forums or the SF2 Knowledge Base thread

here], is there a clear explaination of what "Cruise Missile" parameters are, or how they work in-game.

THAT knowledge is available, in the brains of End-Users experienced with it [since it was released, in what, 2010? 2011?].
That knowledge [or portions of it] may be available in portions of some 20-30 Forum posts somewhere. And in many cases [this CombatAce

Forum included], one must be "logged-in" to enable the Search Engine function, in order to find them. Can't just find them through

"casual lurking."

 

People like yourself, Wrench, have been intimately involved in PTO modding of Thirdwire titles continuously, for a very long time.
[My SFP1 PTO install is full of your contributions. Thank You, BTW]. You have seen and done it all.
People coming "new" to PTO installs in SF2, or even Thirdwire sims in general, do not know what you do.
Especially if they have not been continually following developments, and doing "trial-and-error" experiments, over the years.

 

Let's face it -- The DAT A-Team's PTO mega-mod for SF2 is out there, and people are using it.
They have a choice, of course. They can choose to set up their SF2 PTO install "from scratch," one resource at a time [like I did for my

SFP1 PTO install, back when], with resources available here at CombatAce and other sites, or they can choose the "easy way," by

downloading the DAT A-Team SF2 PTO mod [Hey! Somebody else already included all the aircraft, _.ini edits, Terrains, Campaigns, and

worked out all the glitches, etc.], if only to serve as a "starting point" for their SF2 PTO experience.  

 

I certainly didn't intend to raise any "Red Capes" about differences between DAT A-Team's mods and those available on CombatAce, or

exacerbate anything that may be going on "behind the scenes" regarding them and you.
[Although, FYI, you ARE mentioned by name in their Credits for their PTO mod, and I sorta though you might have some insights as to why

they did what they did in it].
Any further discussion of that might best be done in a PM, and I'd be interested to hear what you have to say, should you choose to do

so.  I have my own opinions, of course ...]

 

Anyway, since other End-Users may be using their PTO mod, I thought it appropriate to mention it in my Original Post.

 

Oh, Yes! "AOTP" and "1942-PAW" were great fun. (Especially the additional "Carrier Task Force" OPs in "1942-PAW").
Incidentally, that fun can be yours again [as well as Spectrum Holobyte's "Flight of the Intruder" Heh! Heh!] through the wonders of

DOSBox, on today's computers. I have all three, and they work fine on Win 8/DirectX 11 (if you can stand the blocky graphics) ...

 

And, I absolutely agree, that "..If it works, don't fix it.."
But, that applies if you already have something "that works,", and are happy with it.

I'm interested in hearing about what other people "have" and are happy with.
--------------------------------------------------

So, anyway, back on-topic --

For me, WW II torpedo bombing should involve:
-- "Low and Slow" delivery -- Altitude around 150 ft, Airspeed around 150 kt, pickle at Range about 1,000 to 1,500 m [around 0.5 nm];
-- "Fire and Forget" -- Once launched, the fish either hits or it doesn't. There's nothing more the launching aircraft can do, and now's

the time to take evasive action and beat feet outta there, hoping you avoid the flak - which is murderous in SF2 - and can easily end

your day before you even reach the launch requirements in Step 1;
-- Your AI Wingmen (and Enemy AI) should be able to use them effectively;
-- Japanese Type 91 torpedoes should exhibit distinct advantages over American Mk13 torpedoes (at least, early in the war). German,

British, Italian, etc. torpedoes probably fall somewhere in between.

 

Using "GuidanceType=5 / "AllowedWeaponClass=EOGR" in SFP1 PTO installs seemed to fulfill those requirements, and work fairly well, at

the time.
We now have more choices, including "GuidanceType=5 / Allowed WeaponClass= CM."

So, what do people think?

DARoot

 

[Just an aside -- Y'know, People, in my experience on Internet Forums, when somebody posts something asking for help with something, one

of the most annoying responses you can give is "Use the Search Engine."
If you know the answer, but cannot be bothered to just give it - or at least, post a direct link to another post that has it -- why

bother responding at all?
"Go Search" just conveys the message that "I'm smart, you're stupid," and isn't particularly helpful to anyone. [And rather reflects

badly on yourself].
THIS thread is NOT a "request for help," so you can feel free to post anything you like here [including saying you think I'm a jerk, if

that's what you feel].  I won't mind.  [Errr... probably].

 
Think of it as a potential resource for information [particularly for End-Users in the future, who may be setting up their SF2 PTO

install for the first time], and decide for yourselves how your contribution might wish to be viewed ...]

[Wrench 9,846]

I have versions of both a British Mk.XII and a Japanese Type 91 set as cruise missiles...

 

this disadvantage I've experienced, with Nells and Bettys carrying the (experimental) CM types, is that even with the proper AI statements, the stupid morons are STILL launching from altitude -- 1000-4000 feet, but oddly within the range parameters specified. You can watch the "wake effect" arcing down to the target ships. This may be a side effect of the game coding for use by Soviet CM bombers.

 

OTH, during the Beau builds (particular the 1C CC version), using the Mk.XII (included in the pak, iirc) set as EOGR, the AI wingman had no real difficulties in launching on their targets. All torps, I believe, are FAR too reliable, and the ships themselves TOO vulnerable. You should NOT be able to take down a Fleet Carrier with one shot! There are some Real Life ™ things that simply can't be similated (broaching, proposing, wild runs, break up on entry, etc)

 

I may have included the "CM" version in the Beau 1C pak; I'd have to check (as the zips are archived on external drives). So, it should be available for AI testing. Just swap the 'standard' for the CM type on the loadout screen, run some auntie shipping missions, and watch the results

 

-------

the reason Charles and Capun name me, is pretty simple: I've done more WW2 mods than just about anyone (excepting the model builders themselves, maybe?).

It's a courtesy that extend in both directions. For me, naming sources or those that assisted/helped/built the thing is a matter of Personal Honor.

Fact checking is part of my technical, professional background. (considering I spent 30 years working on probably the most dangerous/deadly device ever invented by humans -the automobile!-) getting things right was truly 'life and death' on a daily basis. But that's neither here nor there. (it could also be written off to borderline OCD!!  )

 

And the fact that 98.6% of all my work is Freeware, makes it available for use by anyone to use.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Wrench

[DARoot 6]

Oh, Ko! So desu ka!

 

The AI doesn't always use "CM" defined torpedoes correctly?
["Wake effect" in-air from 4,000 feet? That sounds hilarious!]
This happens, even with the "[AI Data]" statements in the aircraft's _Data.ini file?
Um -- that sounds like a problem (albiet a pretty funny one).

 

I believe I mentioned that the DAT A-Team uses "GuidanceType=7 / ASM" for its Okha piloted suicide bombs. Those things are deadly in-

game. All my wingmen fire them OK, and I've experienced a 100% hit/kill rate with them so far.
Probably too much for torpedoes ...

 

No, we probably ain't gonna be able to model porpoising, broaching, magnetic proximity detonators (which never worked all that well in

WW II historically, anyway), or pattern-running torpedoes (used historically by submarines - dunno about aircraft-launched ones) in SF2.

 

But, have you (or anybody) fiddled with the "Accuracy," "LockonChance," "LaunchReliability," "CapabilityFlags," or any of the "Seekerxx"

parameters in the torpedo _data.ini file, to get what you think is representative of WW II torpedo behavior?
And I would think that possibly decreasing the "Explosives= " parameter might make them somewhat less "1-shot-1-kill?"
[in my SF2 PTO install, the CV-5 and Akagi fleet carriers have hull StructuralFactors between 1000 to 1500, if that suggests anything].

 

Not that I'm complaining, or anything, you understand.
I'm completely happy with 95% accuracy and reliability, if that possibly means an extra second or two to escape after launch.
In SF2, it seems even a lone Cargo Ship or Fleet Oiler is armed to the teeth. And attacking an enemy Task Group made up of multiple

warships, in your TBD or Vindicator, is a real treat.  Bring your adult-size Pampers ...

 

DARoot

[Wrench 9,846]

don't forget, top and side armor on the ships is well modeled, too. Many of the old ones (Hinch's) I've updated to completely historic values.

(but the damn Kongo's have a "we can't see it" targeting issue I haven't resolved)

 

for a real challenge, try a Kate or Jill against a CVBG full of Fletchers!!

[DARoot 6]

Hey, Wrench! Thanks for the info!
[Now we got target armor values to consider as well, Eh?  Reminds me of adding Armor to FE2's WW I planes and pilots ...]

 

I sorta decided to investigate a bit further the "CM" (cruise missile) option as a possibility for WW II torpedoes.

 

1. The Australian Beaufighter Mk IC (RAAF) (CAF) that I downloaded DOES have 2 versions of the MkXII torpedo, named "MkXII_Torpedo" and

"MkXII_Torp2" (CM) respectively. However, I couldn't see any differences in the entries between the two _Data.ini files. [Except the

Availability End Date, but I don't think that's relevant]. Couldn't understand how the SF2 NA Game Engine could distinguish between one

being a "cruise missile" and the other as "something else."
So, I did a simple experiment.

Edited the Beaufighter's _Data.ini to ONLY allow "CM" in the Weapon Station field, and checked to see what showed up in the Single

Mission Loadout picklist for that station.
As I expected, NOTHING showed up.

 

2. Well, I figured I just didn't know enough about how SF2 NA handles cruise missiles, so I decided to make the Tu-16K-10-26 Badger

flyable in my regular SF2 NA install, and run a similar test on its center weapons station (change to "CM" only), but with the default,

modern SF2 NA weapons.
Again, NOTHING showed up in the Loadout screen.

 

3. Huh! Now, with the bit firmly between my teeth, I did a crash course of Forum searches over the last 24 hours, as well as downloading

(or at least reading the descriptions of) some of the most recent SF2 weapon packs and add-on cruise-missile capable aircraft available

here at CombatAce.

 

Learned a lot, but not nearly everything that would be necessary to try modding (or even intelligently discussing) this topic.

 

Did pick up a few useful things, that might be pertinent to this discussion.

 

-- Here is a thread about SF2 Guidance Systems, that seems to be more up-to-date than the one currently in the SF2 Knowledge Base:
http://combatace.com/topic/61824-guidancetype-explained-somewhere/

 

-- Here are some excerpts from the "Operation Darius" campaign ReadME (by Eburger68, updated August 2013), with some very interesting

statements:

 

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Note on Anti-Ship Missiles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For this mod most third-party (i.e., non-stock) anti-ship missiles have been converted to use the ASM/cruise missile functionality

introduced w/ SF2NA. At the same time, the older versions of these missiles have been preserved, as the new ASM cruise missiles can be

used by AI only against ships.

So, for many anti-ship missiles you will now find two versions:

1) "Standard" guided version
These versions are the "old" style missiles setwith WeaponDataType=1. They can be used by AI against land and sea targets. These

missiles retain their familiar names (e.g., AGM-84D Harpoon, Kh-59M Ovod, etc.).

2) ASM/cruise missile version
These versions utilitize the new cruise missile functionality set by WeaponDataType=7. They can be used by AI only against ships. These

versions can be distinguished by their names:

- U.S./NATO missiles have the ASM tag (e.g., AGM-84D Harpoon ASM).

- Soviet/WP missiles follow the naming convention used by ThirdWire's
Soviet cruise missiles (e.g., Kh-59M AS-13 Kingbolt).

At the same time aircraft that typically carry these missiles have been updated to accommodate the ASM versions. Loadouts for these

aircraft have been updated to use ASM versions by default for Anti-Ship, Naval_Attack, and Cruise_Missile loadouts.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Note on Laser-Guided Bombs (LGBs)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AI pilots in Strike Fighters have long had problems employing LGBs. AI pilots in the player's flight can drop LGBs, but will treat them

as dumb bombs. AI pilots in flights not controlled by the player (i.e., AI-only flights) cannot use LGBs at all, and will typically get

stuck circling the target.

To address this problem we have created dumb-bomb versions of all LGBs for AI pilots to use. These "dumb" versions are identical in all

respects to the LGB versions save for the Guidance Type, which is set to "Unguided" instead of "Laser-Guided."

By default aircraft that use LGBs for certain loadouts (usually Stike, Attack, SEAD, or Anti-Ship) are loaded with these "dumb" versions

instead of the LGB versions. You should make it a habit to check the Loadout screen and switch the bomb version on your own aircraft to

the LGB version.

You can distinguish between the "dumb" and LB versions by the weapon name -- for example:

LGB version: GBU-12D/B Paveway II LGB
Dumb version: GBU-12D/B Paveway II (dumb)

While this solution introduces an extra step for the player in the preparation to start a mission, it allows AI pilots and AI-only

flights to use these weapons.

-------------------

-- From a post by Snailman from September 2013 --

 

".. my problem is that bombers always launch their missiles before I could even get close to intercept them... At least when it is about TRAM Intruders....
They need to be set up for "Cruise missile" mission type, btw.
AND armed with missiles of ASM ordnance type

 

edit:   With CGR type ammo they have to get close (about 15-20kms  like a human player) to be able to target them visually."

---------------------

Anyway, it now appears to me that "cruise_missile" is more of a Mission Type (like SEAD or Iron Hand) or Aircraft Role (like Attack or

ARMED_RECON) than a weapon type. And this seems to be borne out by the entries in, for example, WhiteBoySamurai's Cruise Missile weapons

pack for SF2 (dated September 2012), [where nearly all of them are WeaponDataType=7 /GuidanceType=7 / ASM], and the SF2 NA

WeaponData.ini [July 2013 build] itself.

 

I looked for "Exocet" and "Tomahawk" in the SF2 NA weapondata.ini, but couldn't find them. I did, however, find these:
 
AGM-84C ("Harpoon")                                KSR5 ("AS-6 Kingfish")
--                                                                  --
SpecificStationCode=                                  SpecificStationCode=KSR5  <---
--                                                                  --
WeaponDataType=7                                   WeaponDataType=7
EffectClassName=CruiseMissileEffects      EffectClassName=CruiseMissileEffects 
--                                                                  --
GuidanceType=7                                         GuidanceType=7
BoosterEffectName=0                                 BoosterEffectName=CruiseMissileFireEffect
InFlightEffectName=MissileInFlightEffect    InFlightEffectName=MissileInFlightEffect

---------------

Just for comparison, these are from Bunyap's SFP1 (06 patch) weapons pack ----

AM39 ("Exocet")                                            BGM-109 ("Tomahawk")
--                                                                    --
[N/A "SpecificStationCode"]                           SpecificStationCode=
--                                                                     --
WeaponDataType=1                                      WeaponDataType=1
EffectClassName=LargeMissileEffects          EffectClassName=LargeMissileEffects
--                                                                     --
GuidanceType=3                                           GuidanceType=5
BoosterEffectName=MissileFireEffect           BoosterEffectName=LargeMissileFireEffect
InFlightEffectName=MissileInFlightEffect      InFlightEffectName=LargeSAMTrailEffect

 

Lastly, from the original SF2 NA Tu-16K-10-26_Data.ini ---------

[MissilePylonR]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=2
StationGroupID=1
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition= 7.10,0.18,-0.96
AttachmentAngles=0.0,-2.0,0.0
LoadLimit=4000
AllowedWeaponClass=ASM     <----
AttachmentType=SOVIET
ModelNodeName=MissilePylon_R
PylonMass=156.5
PylonDragArea=
MinExtentPosition=
MaxExtentPosition=
SpecificStationCode=KSR5   <----

====================================================

Well, well, well ....

Sorry for the length of this post, but there's a lot of useful information here, all in one place now, appropriate to our discussion.

 

1. I'm not convinced that "CM," as an entry in an aircraft's "AllowedWeaponClass=" line, is of much use. I'd need further convincing.

 

2. I suspect that "WeaponDataType=7" in a weapon's _data.ini file is what tells the Game Engine that this is a "cruise missile," but I

have not found that documented other than in the above cited references. Maybe the SF2 Knowledge base here needs to be updated?
In any event, if that is the case I imagine that if a weapon does NOT have that entry, the Game Engine would ignore anything in a

plane's "[CruiseMissileAI]" fields.

 

If you, Wrench, have been testing the "MkXII_Torp2" (CM) with different data than that supplied with the Australian Beaufighter, please

expand upon your previous comments. I'd be interested (and, hopefully, so would other Readers).

 

3. And while you're at it, would you care to comment on SupGen's "WW II Weapons Pack" for SF2, from Feb 2013, in which his/her ReadMe

states, "..This is a (by no means definitive) Weapons Pack for StrikeFighters2 WWll installs. I used Wrench's WWll Weapons Pack for SF1

(which itself was based on Bunyap's 2006 Pack) as a guide; ... I copied what I could from Killerbee's Ordnance Packll, what I couldn't

find there I converted from the SF1 WWll Pack.."

and in which the Mk13 (and Type 91) torpedoes are classed as WeaponDataType=1 and

GuidanceType=5, AND the Mk13 also has "EffectClassName=TorpedoEffects" (the Type 91 does not, and there are no UK torpedoes included)

with the addition of the following --

 

[TorpedoEffects]
GroundHitEffectName=
GroundHitSoundName=
WaterHitEffectName=VeryLargeBombWaterHitEffect
WaterHitSoundName=
ObjectHitEffectName=VeryLargeBombAirExplosion
ObjectHitSoundName=BigExplosion.wav
ArmorHitEffectName=VeryLargeBombAirExplosion
ArmorHitSoundName=BigExplosion.wav
CraterModelName=
CraterType=
 
4. Lastly [you were eagerly awaiting this, weren't you?], I'll close with the following tidbit, that I picked up in my travels, but

which is more relevant to "modern" cruise missiles, with very long ranges, than to WW II torpedoes or other ordnance --

 

If you are employing something with a very long range, you can use the F7 key to cycle through ALL the Ground Objects in your current

mission, until you find your Primary Target, and then press "E" to designate it in your HUD (even from your runway, before takeoff).

Then, just fly until it's within weapon launch range parameters, and fire away.
Pretend it's AWACS or JSTARS vectoring ...
But, not in WW II.
Then, it's cheating.

 

DARoot

[We'll deal with "invisible battleships" some other time. I'd suspect it might have to do with static vs moving targets, as discussed

above by Eburger68 and Snailman. But, we shall see ..]

[+SupGen 79]

  Hey DARoot; that weapons pack was a quick and dirty (and pretty sloppy, too) attempt to just get most WWII weapons into one pack; I (I'm a him by the way  ) didn't really change anything except to bring SF1 weapons up to SF2 standards. Check out this thread, though: http://combatace.com/topic/77300-carrier-vs-carrier-not-happening/ . From post #12 on there's some info on CM functionality and some give and take on relative superiority between Type 91 and Mark XIII torpedoes as well as Mark XIII launch parameters; after 1943 the U.S. Navy was dropping them from as high as 2000 meters and as fast as 400 Kts IAS with good results. Great thread by the way.

[DARoot 6]

Greetings, Supgen

 

Sure! I believe your ReadMe made that clear.
Thanks for that link, and for doing your weaponspack, BTW.
[Drat! The link for Wrench's "CM" Type 91 torpedo there is no longer active. And that thread brings up another issue, concerning

"Strike" missions in SF2 NA [or on the Iceland map?] always targeting Battle Groups instead of land targets. But, that's for another

discussion].

And, you might find this interesting -- It's from an interview with William "Bud" Gruner, CO of U.S.S. Skate in 1943, concerning his use of the Mark 14 Torpedo on submarines:

 

"When available I chose to go on patrol with all (45 knot, 4,500 yard) Mark 14 or 23 steam torpedoes. When a full load (24) was not available, I took a mix with a few 30 knot Mark 18 electric torpedoes. Although wakeless, I preferred the higher speed Mark 14s because the time to impact was less.
....
We tried to launch torpedoes at a distance of 500 to 1,500 yards off the target track to achieve a 90-degree torpedo track angle. In order to hit targets broadside (This assumes that torpedoes run as set and that exploders function properly, which they did not always do.). Set torpedo depth according to type of target -- 6 to 8 feet for merchant ships and destroyers, 10 feet for a cruiser, 12 to 15 feet for a carrier or  battleship."

 

But out of interest, and for the sake of discussion, if you had it to do all over again, what might you do differently, being now older

and wiser?

 

And remember, this here is an "academic" discussion. Nobody is asking anyone to DO anything, or alter anything they may have chosen to

share with the Community.

 

DARoot
[PS -- FYI, your methodology is exactly what I did with the torpedoes in my copy of the DAT A-Team's WW II PTO mod -- copied the

relevant data from my SFP1 install, while keeping their SF2 weapondata format].