Red Storm - T-34 twosome

[33LIMA 972]

The T-34 in Steel Fury and T-34-vs-Tiger 

 

Having gone up against T-34s in recently-reported missions in both SF '42 and T-v-T, I thought it was time to see how things looked through the other end of the telescope....through the gunsight of the famous Soviet tank, to be precise. This report is the result, featuring the same tank in both sims, for comparison.

 

T-34-vs-Tiger is set during the period of the Soviet 1944 summer offensive, and the T-34-85 is the playable version. It's a fine replica, evidently an earlier production model with the prominent inverted 'U' turret lifting lugs and the two-piece commander's hatch.

 

 

This sim also has the previous production version, commonly called both the Model 1943 and the Model 1942; but this isn't playable.This 76mm-gunned model's presence both adds variety and ensures that when playing the Tiger, you aren't always up against the top Soviet medium tank.

 

 

SF '42 comes with an earlier T-34. To this, the modders have added two later versions: the Model 1942/43 and the T-34-85. All three versions are pictured below. I believe only the stock version (top) has 3-D interiors (second pic). These are certainly nice to have, but non-essential. All the Steel Fury T34s have superior animation to the T-v-T models, with working suspension and crew who open or close hatches as the tactical situation may dictate.

 

 

 

 

 

The T-34-85 went into action in early 1944, replacing the original 76mm gun with a more potent 85mm weapon in a larger turret, which at last had a 3-man crew, so the commander no longer had to act as gunner, as well.

 

My appetite for the T-34 was recently well whetted after watching 'White Tiger', a modern Russian film to which CA member Snailman had recently posted this link. It's a rather strange and spooky film and the Tiger in question is apparently an IS-2 conversion (seems they built a realistic Tiger replica but ended up using the Stalin tank conversion, which if nothing else certainly emphasises the point that this was no ordinary Tiger). Despite the strange plot and some overly fuel-filled special effects, the visuals are great, the performances strong and the tank action is not to be missed.

 

Anyway, back in sim-land, the missions I chose to play are 'Liberating Krinovichi' from T-v-T's stock single-player 6-mission Soviet campaign and Steel Fury's 'Chernogostie', which is in one of the mission packs which go with the NTA mod. The T-v-T mission, as its name suggests, is offensive in nature; the SF '42 one is defensive. First up, it's T-v-T. Knowing that this sim's main antagonist is no less than the Tiger tank itself, I was expecting trouble, but glad that I'd be meeting it in the latest T-34. I reckoned that woud give me a fighting chance of avoiding ending up like this:

 

 

...to be continued!

[33LIMA 972]

'Liberating Krinovichi'

 

Here's my orders for the T34-vs-Tiger mission. This is the first Soviet mission, there being a not-very-grand total of six for each side, in the stock sim. The 'briefing' itself is not terribly helpful. As you can see, about half of it is given over to a short history lesson, concluding with a rather strange description of the plight of the panzers at this stage in the war. The actual mission description is slightly truncated in the screenie below but it tells me very little. What is the composition of our attacking force? Do we have any artillery support? What do we know of the enemy, apart from roughly where they are? The briefing implies nothing more than MG nests! What sub-unit am I with, and which of the three axes of advance (red arrows) is my sub-unit supposed to take? You don't get to make up your own mind about such things in real life. But this is T-v-T and I decided to go left-flanking. Not that it seemed likely to make much difference, as all three axes looked to channel us into a likely killing ground more or less in front of the enemy position. I suppose I could have crunched off through the extensive woodland and gone wide, but commanding officers tend not to approve of that sort of thing, never mind Red Army Commisars. Besides, if I went swanning off on my own into the Wide Blue Yonder, I'd lose whatever support I'd get from the others in my force. Whoever they were. There was one way to find out. I started the mission.

 

 

Having 'moved' to the gunner's station, I activated the AI driver and commander, checked that I had an AP round chambered, then turned on the turret position indicator and map displays. Checking the latter, I ordered the driver to turn hard left and we crunched through a short stretch of woodland. Once on the other side, I turned right into the clearing that would lead us towards the objective. As you have no way of interacting with the AI (other than your movements sometimes triggering their activity) it seems not to matter who you link up with.  When I turned left to enter the woods, I had left behind a group of 76mm- and 85mm-gunned T-34s who had promptly rushed off without me. Instead, I found myself approaching a group of five T-34-85s, with whom I could join up, instead. That was the good news. The bad news was, they were all facing the wrong way. Either that, or I had missed the order to withdraw.

 

 

But no, I was going the right way; the war hadn't been cancelled. As I neared the T-34s, they sprang into life and turned with me as I passed. Soon, I was at the head of quite an impressive phalanx of Soviet steel.

 

 

I say 'at the head off' rather than 'leading', because - while my arrival may have triggered the AI into action - in no sense were the other T-34s under my control. Evidently keen to be at the fascists and impress the Commisar with their ardour, they roared off towards the objective. In no time, they were in the large clearing in front of Krinovichi, where they rapidly began to take casualties, firing back at an enemy I could not yet see. Of the infantry we were supposed to be supporting, I could see no sign. But the opposition evidently consisted of something a good deal more formidable than a few machine guns. I could see nothing definite but cracked off several rounds at what I took to be bunkered enemy positions, without much result that I could see. To make matters worse I forgot to switch to HE after the first shot so I used up AP rounds needlessly - doh!

 

Time for a change of plan! I suddenly felt disinclined to continue ahead, into an open space which was evidently well covered by enemy fire. Instead, I swung right, across the rear of the group of tanks which I had originally left behind. I felt more than a little exposed, but I was relying on presenting the Germans with a crossing target, harder to hit - and, shamelessly, on the leading T-34s drawing the enemy fire. Across the open ground I went, urging more speed on the driver, aiming for a stretch of woodland which extended out towards the objective, on the right.

 

 

It was a tense few seconds but finally I made it into the woods. Once inside I slowed right down, picking my way between the trees. I edged cautiously towards the furthest extremity of the woods, scanning left and right between the leaves.

 

 

Suddenly, my commander called out a tank target. Using the turret position indicator, I swung my gun around onto his line of sight...and there it was! Just visible between a gap in the foliage, sitting in the open - unmistakably, a Tiger! My relief that he wasn't aiming in my direction was tempered by the knowledge that if I didn't get him quickly, he soon would be! I lined him up and cracked off my first round.

 

 

...to be continued!

[RUSTYMORLEY 162]

33LIMA, if you don't mind I have got a couple of questions about the two games.

 

1. Which of the two games do you consider to be easier to play in terms of gameplay and simplicity.

 

2. Can you fight and drive the tank from outside in both games (external view) with crosshair.

 

3. Which one of the games do you think is easier on the Processor \ Graphics Card.

 

4. In you opinion which of the two games is easier to play and overall best. I am thinking about my young lad here who is just getting into computer games and is becoming most interested with Tank games.

 

5. Can you drive any other tanks in the games.

 

6. Which is easier to Mod and has more available Mods.

 

Thanks in advance for any information you can provide about the two games. 

Edited May 26, 2014 by RUSTYMORLEY

[33LIMA 972]

Hi Rusty

 

1. I don't think there is much to choose, in terms of being easy to play. T-v-T I find slightly easier because (i) its manual is better translated than SF '42's and (ii) T-v-T has less functionality and therefore fewer keystrokes - a bit of a back-handed compliment!

 

2. You can play in the external view in both but AFAIK there is no crosshair, you have to switch to the gunsight view to shoot OR play as a tank commander and point out targets for your AI gunner to shoot. I would hate a crosshair in the external view so i don't miss that. I play in the external view and go to the gunsight either when a target is spotted or when I want to scan for targets from the gunsight. It's not complicated to play like this.

 

If you're playing as gunner, both sims have an artificial intelligence tank commander who spots and indicates targets for you, just as in real life. In both sims you can hear the commander's fire order (German or Russian) and see it displayed as text; each sim also has different on-screen aids to help, like the turret position indicator in the screenies above.

 

In both sims I believe that you can just drive the tank and your AI gunner will do the shooting.

 

3. I think SF '42 is less demanding on a system. On my system anyway, T-v-T can chug a bit with lots of vehicles in view, while SF '42 does not. Maybe not an issue with newer PCs/GPUs.

 

4. I would not say that either sim is particlarly easy to get into - it takes practice and some patience. SF '42's manual's translation can be difficult to understand. All tank simulations (as opposed to tank arcade games) can take a while to pick up, and it can be very frustrating when your first few missions result in sudden death from an enemy you never even saw (still happens to me). You need to select the right ammo for the right target, and if playing as gunner, to know how to set your gun sight for the target's range. Rushing ahead will often get you killed; you learn to move from cover to cover, pausing to watch for enemies. Learning and managing these things is part of what you get from a tank sim, as opposed to a tank game.

 

The only tanksim that I really found easy to get into was Panzer Commander (which had a simplified targeting mode and generally simple controls). At the other extreme is Panzer Elite, dated graphically but, with the latest mods, still the best WW2 tanksim in many departments - it had a very complex (but very capable) control setup with more keyboard controls than a thing with a lot of keyboard controls, including many multi-key combinations. SF '42 does have some options to make gameplay simpler but I've not tried these. SF '42 also has training missions, which T-v-T doesn't.

 

5. In T-v-T you can drive only the Tiger or the T-34-85 (although there is a payware mod by ZeeWolf which adds some additional playable vehicles). In SF '42, if you download the NTA mod, you can also drive dozens of tanks and other AFVs. I think the mission packs even include one for a BMW motorcycle & sidecar! My mission reports here feature just a very small selection of the drivable vehicles. Others include these:

 

6. SF '42 has been extensively modded - the NTA mod is the latest and you can get up to speed with all the extra missions and vehicles by following the installation guide on the Graviteam forum, here:

 

http://graviteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=10944.0

 

As to which is best, each is better in some respects but overall, I agree with most people that SF '42 is significantly better, overall, especially with the mods installed. SF '42 has dozens of playable vehicles and many missions and campaigns; T-v-T (unless you go for the payware mod) has two vehicles and two campaigns with just six missions each.

 

If you just want a simple tank game that is suitable for some single-player fun, others will be able to give better advice but something like Panzer Elite Action (not to be confused with the original Panzer Elite which was a real tank sim) might do the trick, if you can still get it:

 

 

But if your lad has the interest and the patience to learn the aspects of tanking that a proper tanksim will teach him, they don't come much better than SF '42 with the NTA mod. With dozens of AFVs and many missions, it has the replay value I don't expect you'll get from an arcade game.

,

[RUSTYMORLEY 162]

33LIMA, Thank-you for your quick reply and thank-you very much for your helpful comments and the Screenshots. I will show my young lad your information and we will make a decision as to which game he wants to go for.

 

He has already got Panzer Elite and loves it! Do you happen to know if Panzer Elite Action 'Fields of Glory' and the sequel 'Dunes of War' has got any Mods?

 

Once again Thanks     

[33LIMA 972]

Hi Rusty

 

If your boy's already got Panzer Elite and likes it then he'll have no difficulties with SF '42 (or T-v-T)...except he may miss not being able to do some stuff he could do in PE, like play campaigns all the way through from North Africa to Normandy. If he hasn't already done so he could try the PE-x mod or PE3, which extend features and scope still further:

 

http://pedg.yuku.com/topic/2141/PEX-Realsed-Version#.U4TT6ygo0vE

 

http://panzerelite.yuku.com/topic/482/Panzer-Elite-three-mod-LINK-contains-Ostpak-MvR-BritPa?page=1#.U4TTMSgo0vE

 

 

 

[33LIMA 972]

Tiger hunt!

 

Having used the woods to creep up on a Tiger while my less cautious comrades were being savaged by fascist gunfire, I now needed to destroy my close-range foe before he woke up and destroyed me. 'Keep firing till it changes shape' I've heard that US tankers say, recognising that it's only in the movies that knocked-out tanks announce their demise with a petrol-laden fireball, every time. I was conscious that the Tiger was sitting at an angle to my line of fire, thereby increasing the thickness of armour my 85mm gun had to penetrate. I concentrated on his front, thicker than the side armour but at less of an angle. At that range I could hardly miss but I still had to pump several of my remaining AP rounds into him before his shape changed - finally, his gun drooped and his hatches popped slightly open. Phew!

 

 

At this point I should repeat the point made in an earlier mision report - T-v-T gunnery is top-notch, in my book. The visuals are good, the gun firing and loading sounds are excellent, and likewise the crew voices. In this mission, failing to familiarise myself with the Soviet ammo types had led me in the heat of action to neglect proper round selection but that wasn't T-v-T's fault. For the rest of this mission, I just hoped that my zealous Red Army comrades had dealt with any other Tigers.

 

Elated but nervously, I edged forward from the trees, scanning left and right for any sign of further enemies. But all I could see was my victim, now gently smoking in the open. As I came out of cover, I got a shock when I suddenly spotted a Pak 40 AT gun in a defensive position, roughly between me and the Tiger. The gun itself looked undamaged but its crew was nowhere in sight. Had it been active, I'd probably have been dead by now. So I pushed on, speeding up and making straight for the gun emplacement. I intended to make that my next fire position; if the Germans sprang to life suddenly...well, I would just roll right over them, gun and crew. 

 

 

 

I managed to cover the short stretch of open ground to the AT gun position without mishap. Halting in front of it, I could see that although the gun itself appeared undamaged, the unfortunate gun crew did not.

 

 

 

Still no sign of the enemy! Where were they? I decided my next bound would be into the village itself, where I would use the cover of the buildings to do a bit more creeping up on the Nemetski. I backed up a little, swung left, then dashed across the short stretch of open ground, slowing again as I got amongst the buildings. They were hardly much protection from AP rounds but they say that cover from view is better than cover from fire...even though both is likely best.

 

 

 

The only hostile indications I could see were some menacing but silent pillboxes, likely to house those MGs we had been briefed to knock out. There was no sign of our infantry but in case they showed up later, I did my duty and duly blasted the pillboxes. The HE rounds I had left seemed to crumble rather than obliterate them but after reducing a couple of these things to a fairly knocked-about condition, I decided it was time to move on.

 

 

Looking around, there seemed to be plenty of T-34s about...dead ones. The view below is through the tank commander's binoculars, which give a somewhat better view than the gunsight. Looking at the turret position indicator, you can see that this shows me I'm looking left, while my gunner is looking slightly left. You can activate an AI gunner while in the commander's station and he is quite decent at picking up and engaging targets on his own.

 

 

The battle seemed to have died off, too, and I got the impression that I was the only one still in the Land of the Living...apart from any devious fascists who might, even now, be lying in wait, ready to put a violent and sudden end to my heroic endeavours on behalf of the Motherland and Comrade Stalin.

 

Plotting my position on the map - which I had previously set not to display other vehicles besides my own, so as to avoid the AWACS, eye-in-the-sky effect, however convenient it is - I decided that I would have to make a little circuit around the village, rushing from fire position to fire position, pausing to have a good look from each, before moving on. This promised to be a tense affair...and so it proved.

 

 

...to be continued!

[33LIMA 972]

Come out, come out, wherever you are!

 

Skirting the woods around Krinovichi and making the occasional faster dash across open stretches, I sought out any Germans lurking in the vicinity. All I came across was a second Pak 40 anti-tank gun, which seemed as deserted as the first one. This time I decided to make sure of him with a round of 85mm HE.

 

 

 

Moving on, I rolled past some knocked-out T-34s and coming around a corner in the woods, found myself behind a second and equally knocked-out Tiger.

 

 

 

Eventually, I had made a complete circuit of the objective without encountering any opposition...likewise, without encountering any friendly forces, either. Live ones, that is. There were plenty of dead ones.

 

 

Still I hadn't seen the 'Mission accomplished!' message...or the 'Mission failed!' one, for that matter. Last time this happened in a T-v-T mission, I had broken the stalemate by putting another round into an enemy AFV which looked like it had been knocked out but might have had some life in it. Perhaps, in this mission, one of the dead Tigers wasn't quite dead. Perhaps there were some live enemies lurking silent in one of the pillboxes. But I'd already made one tour of the battlefield and didn't feel inclined to make another, just for the sake of killing (apparently) dead things. So I called it quits. Fortunately, I had applied the mod (a registry edit IIRC) which unlocks all the T-v-T single player missions so I didn't have to complete this mission to play others in the little 6-mission Soviet SP campaign. Personally, I Ioathe this sort of restriction.

 

Anyhow, as tanksim missions go, this one had its moments, mainly soaking up the sights and sounds of tank gunnery, conveying the impression of which I'd say is TvT's strength. However the mission also highlighted one of T-v-T's weaknesses - its missions. Not only are there too few of them, and not only is your tank on its own amongst a bunch of AI stuff doing its own thing with no platoon command and control for the player, but mission goals are too artificial. Often, you must kill everything on a target list.  Miss one and it's no go. In this mission, three goals were listed, as you can see in the mission briefing in the first post: 1. Advance to Krinovichi; 2. Supress the MG nests [pillboxes?]; 3. Occupy the village. Which had I missed and how? I had no idea.

 

Setting decent mission objectives and tying this into how the mission ends seems to present tanksims a challenge that not all mission designs meet very well. Sometimes, they impose silly and artificial time limits - yes I know timing is important in military operations but not like that; we want our tanksims to simulate war not a bl***y video game. Other times, they impose specific things you must destroy. And however they resolve objectives, while some will be sensible and tell you the result but still let you play on, others will tell you you've failed and then end the mission for you with no option to play on, again, video game style.

 

Likely, part of the problem is that unlike a combat flight sim, you don't have the nice 'RTB and land' end point of the typical flying mission. Military operations are typically centred on taking or holding ground so that's the obvious type of victory condition we should have in a tanksim. But I daresay that can be hard to boil down to a victory condition. In real life it wasn't necessarily clear-cut, either. I recall that concerning Normandy 1944, one British tank unit's War Diary was quoted as criticising another unit's claim to have occupied a certain enemy position, when it was said that all they had really done was to 'superimpose themselves on a heavily-defended locality'. I quite liked how M1Tank Platoon II handled things - if I recall right it, you were told whether you had won or lost when the moment came but had the option of playing on. Your results were in some fashion then factored into the next campaign mission you faced. Panzer Elite is a bit like that, except the visible mission goals tended to include the destruction of units whose names you could not possibly have known and of whose presence on the battlefield you might have been otherwise completely unaware, in real life. This T-v-T mission's ending was at the more unsatisfactory end of the scale, but at least it didn't time me out.

 

Anyway, in the second part of 'Red Storm - T-34 twosome' we'll see how I got on with the same tank in a different sim - Steel Fury - Kharkov 1942.