hmm...maybe time to think again?

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3277958/Mystery-killed-Red-Baron-finally-solved-Final-moments-fearsome-German-flyer-described-time-eye-witness-account-come-light-100-years.html

 

I don't think we're any the wiser..but some interesting relics going on sale

Edited October 18, 2015 by UK_Widowmaker

[JimAttrill 24]

It may be correct, but personally I wouldn't believe anything in the Daily Mail.  I thought MvR was shot down by an Australian mg crew.  He should of course have been taken off flying duties as his loss was terrible for German morale. 

[Olham 164]

German High Command tried that several times, but Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen declined to be sent to a desk job.

He said, he could serve the overall morale better, when he kept fighting.

 

Among WW1 aviation historians it is not disputed much since a long time, that the lethal round must have came from the ground.

The entrance- and exit wounds alone would make it VERY unlikely, that he was shot by Brown, or any other fighter pilot; even if

he should have been flying hard-banked.

But back in those days, the commanders simply decided it would look much better, and raise the morale for the RFC, if MvR

would have been shot by a fighter pilot. So, Roy Brown (who actually HAD a short attack on MvR, before he broke it off -

but that was quite a bit earlier on in that famous chase) just came handy for them.

I bet Brown even told them that it was very unlikely, that it should have been one of his rounds.

I bet they convinced him, that they talked him into this version - just for the sake of the whole Flying Corps.

 

Some time soon, our forum member JFM (James F. Miller) will come out with a new, fresh look at all the evidence and details,

and after reading a bit of the unfinished work, I can only say, many historians will have to change their views even more.

His evidence is very forceful and neatly collected.

[Hauksbee 103]

I too, believe that Cedric Popkin fired the fatal bullet. Without giving too much away, Olham, can you confirm or deny that?

[Olham 164]

No, I really can't - I read a different bit. I'm not even sure if it could be cleared up doubt-free. Must ask Jim.

[Hauksbee 103]

No, I really can't - I read a different bit. I'm not even sure if it could be cleared up doubt-free. Must ask Jim.

Here's a graphic I made over the British map that accompanied the report on von Richtofen's death. As I recall (I didn't re-read the report today) Brown only got one pass at MvR, from behind (approx. 4 o'clock) and slightly above. He crossed over MvR's flight path and banked right. They are now running parallel. Brown, no doubt, is intending to set up for a second  shot. By now von Richtofen has crossed over into the Aussie side of the lines. He's overshot Cedric Popkin's position. Popkin remembers his Lieutenant shouting "Shoot! Shoot!" but he couldn't get his gun to bear in time. In an instant (or two) Von Richtofen has crossed over Robert Buie and "Snowy" Evans. He realizes he's in deep shite and turns back. Now is when Popkin gets a second chance. The bullet that killed von Richtofen came from the right, and below, struck a rib below his right armpit, ricocheted and passed through both lungs. Unless Jim Miller has new evidence, I think Popkin's claim is the only one that satisfies the evidence.

 

I also find it quite possible, (as Olham surmises above) that the RFC might have pressed Roy Brown to assert his claim even though he knew it dubious. (for the good of the Service and all that sort of thing...) I remember that in the History Channel account, they had May's son speaking. He said that by the time questions were arising, his Dad, (May) had said Roy was in poor health and simply didn't want to talk about it.

The Death of Manfred von Richthofen.doc

Edited October 19, 2015 by Hauksbee

[Olham 164]

Hauksbee, I guess that it is most obvious that Popkin fired the lethal shot - we'll see if Jim has more on that.

For Brown it must have been a terrible feeling for the rest of his life, when everybody clapped on his shoulder

for shooting down the "Red Baron" - while he himself knew he didn't - but couldn't tell.

 

JFM's book is a lot about investigating all the rumours, half-baked truths, and misinterpreted info about the reasons

why MvR was flying into enemy terrain, and extremely low. Most historians keep claiming he was a different man

after his headwound; that he was kind of depressed, that he made mistakes, and wasn't in the right condition

for air combat anymore. Jim shed many new, bright lights on all this, and his neat line of evidence will show

a new picture alltogether, so much I can assure you.

I will get everyone informed when the book is released - I bet it's worth getting.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Olham

[JFM 18]

Hey guys!

 

First, ever notice how “news” stories like this often involve auctions? Gee, I wonder if the seller and/or auction house are using the news for self-promotion/advertising?  And often these advertisements—I mean news stories involve quotes from people who have little-to-no idea what they are talking about. I mean, look at this quote: “Trench warfare in World War One was terrible and dire and claimed thousands of lives.” Thank you, Walter Cronkite! Thousands? LMAO That’s like saying you can buy a few things at Amazon. I won’t get into the sundry other errors in that article. 

 

Roy Brown. Rarely in history has one man been given so much credit or attention for not doing something. Brown approached MvR from the southeast in a 45 degree dive. He attacked Richthofen high from his port rear quarter—a bullet would have gone left-right and downward. MvR’s wound was right-to-left and upward. Plus, MvR flew on unaffected and still chased and shot at May after Brown’s ineffective attack. MvR’s going to continue shooting—which required manual re-cocking after every burst, due to his weapon problems that day—after being fatally shot through the thorax? Horse hockey. And all ground accounts indicate Brown “boom and zoomed” MvR—he dived, shot, pulled up and vanished in the mist, never to be involved in the chase again. I dare say it’s conjecture at best that MvR even knew he had been attacked.

 

As far as Popkin, as far as I’m prepared to go is “somebody” shot Richthofen. Who? How the hell do I or any of us know? Why couldn’t it have been one of the many soldiers reported to be firing with rifles? Popkin seems to be the best aligned machine gunner, but how does that rule out all the single soldiers? It doesn’t. But there were so many and no way to track down who was where and when, so they just get ignored and the focus goes on the machine gunners. I'm not saying Popkin didn't shoot him down. He could have. So could have so many others. However, I will say Brown wasn't one of them.

 

Note that on Hauksbee’s little map that most/all of the action was ALREADY behind the lines. This is a very import detail that helps debunk a lot of myths about MvR’s supposed “PTSD” “causing” him to “violate personal combat principles” by “feverishly chasing May over the lines.” I have a very large chapter about this subject in my pending book. 20,000+ words in that chapter alone, which is about the size of an entire Osprey “Duel” book. It's a pretty comprehensive chapter.

[Olham 164]

Ah, good you answered this - you know the facts and details a lot better, Jim.

Is there a horizon in sight, when your book might be finished for release?

[Hauksbee 103]

So, Jim...no new 'smoking gun' to stand all our received wisdom on its ear? But what's your feelings about Olham's suspicion that the RFC pressured Roy Brown to assert a claim? In his report, Brown stated that he got off a long burst into the red triplane, and that it went down.

 

Upon looking at the map again, I was mildly shocked when I saw "the Crash Site" indicated. All prior information had von Richtofen coming down over the village of Vaux-sur-Somme which sits up on the north bank of the river. Even the History Channel showed the brick factory & chimney with the Dr.1 skimming low, passing it, and landing in the field beyond which gently sloped toward the water. How does this square with your research?

 

Then there's the "lone gun-man" theory. Everything I've read, video included, pays passing tribute to this possibility and, as you point out, there's no way to confirm or deny. Rifles and machine guns both used the .303 round.

 

If any one bit of evidence might tip the verdict to Cedric Popkin, it's that another observer has von Richtofen's plane touching down about 22 seconds after crossing Popkin's position. The History Channel narrator claims that after a bullet has passed through both lungs, 22 seconds is just about right for how much life you have left.

.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Hauksbee

[Olham 164]

All prior information had von Richtofen coming down over the village of Vaux-sur-Somme which sits up on the north bank of the river.

Even the History Channel showed the brick factory & chimney with the Dr.1 skimming low, passing it, and landing in the field beyond...

 

Hauksbee, "History Channel" has it right; the St. Colette brickworks, or better that field beyond, was his crash-landing site.

The brickworks are just a kilometer northwest of Vaux-sur-Somme.

 

Here is a link to GoogleMaps - the photos below show the brickworks, and one shows "the Red Baron's last stand".

When you click on "Back to the map" you should be able to get it all together.

 

https://www.google.de/maps/@49.932674,2.539108,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1s37106637!2e1!3e10!6s%2F%2Fstorage.googleapis.com%2Fstatic.panoramio.com%2Fphotos%2Fsmall%2F37106637.jpg!7i1600!8i1200

 

When you are in map or satelite view, you can move your cursor over the photos at the bottom, and a thin line will appear, pointing to the spot in the map.

 

Here is the photo "Red Baron's last stand" (funny: it was taken in October 2008 - the month when I came to discover OFF).

Seems they have installed an info board about von Richthofen's last landing.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Olham

[JFM 18]

Hello!

 

Honestly, I haven't studied much about Brown, or even paid attention, because he didn't shoot down MvR. I focus more on what happened, not what didn't happen. But I know his story changed a few times and he was somewhat hesitant to discuss it at times. Plus, a post-war article In Liberty mag was full of fluff and has been taken to be "fact." But even Liberty admitted "Roy Brown was paid for the article and probably contributed all or most of the facts. We won't rule out the possibility that the piece was ghost-written but this is not unusual in any national magazine." Yes, he fired on MvR but he either missed or didn't get a killing shot on him or the plane, and he kept on going. Brown's attack came before they reached Vaux sur Somme. MvR's skimming the roofs and dodging steeples there after being fatally shot?

 

First, the History Channel.           That's aimed at them, nobody here. I used to love it but they've really gone downhill in our era of infotainment. "Ancient Aliens"?  I love how they had the show with lasers aimed at the plane to see if MvR's plane could be hit. I think that 1. since his plane was hit from the ground it was a good indication it could be hit from the ground and 2. how many thousands/tens-of-thousands of plane have been downed by AA fire? They acted as if this was some unusual thing. I'm surprised they didn't use Luke Skywalker blowing up the Death Star as another historical example of how lucky the shot was. But, in all seriousness, that map above seems about right, as far as the lay of the land is concerned. The scale is very small. Vaux sur Somme is very tiny. I dare say a Par 5 hole on a golf course is longer. If not, it's not by much. And I agree the landing ground was across the street from the brickworks and on the sloping field. It's pretty close to Vaux sur Somme. You can drive there in a couple minutes. May and MvR flew over Vaux sur Somme at ridiculously low altitude but they kept on going. They had to avoid the church steeple there. I took this photo in 2004. Compare the scale to the cars. I'll include a photo of across the street, where I was standing to take the church photo. Look how low those guys were! They were skimming the roofs/trees/wires.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree MvR didn't have long to go after he was shot. I agree Popkin looks good and in a favorable spot but, as we said, what about the soldiers around?

 

You should grab this book, if you haven't already. It's all about this subject: http://www.amazon.com/The-Red-Barons-Last-Flight/dp/1898697752   Used, three bucks! There's no excuse not to buy it for that price. You'd spend more at McDonald's.
 

[Hauksbee 103]

Jim: Your Smileys speak volumns! I agree; The History Channel has deteriorated terribly. Especially when they attempt to put a scientific gloss on vampires, sasquatches and chupacabras under the heading of "Cryptozoology". And the programs are all the same. After stomping through the countryside for a week or so, they show you a vague hole in the ground, which may or may not be a footprint, plus some blurry photos. Then they all declare the effort a great leap forward in the field and vow to come back next summer.

 

However; they also have a parallel channel called "History Channel International" in which they keep both feet firmly planted on the ground.

 

I took your recommendation and bought "The Red Baron's Last Flight". Do you have a release date for your book yet?

[Olham 164]

However; they also have a parallel channel called "History Channel International" in which they keep both feet firmly planted on the ground.

 

Maybe they don't want to make fools of the Americans, internationally?

[Hauksbee 103]

America appreciates the thought, but it's too little, too late.

 

By the way, thanks for the photos. I downloaded them all.

[JFM 18]

The History Channel lost me when all they started showing stuff about "Hitler and the UFO Conspiracy."   I didn't realize they had an international channel, though, so I'll look for it. If I can ever turn off MeTV, that is. That's all I ever turn on, it I turn a TV on. I tell you what I miss is Discovery Wings Channel. That was awesome. Then it morphed into the Military Channel, which was a major step down, and that morphed into American Heroes Channel, or something. I'm not sure, because it's not 24-hour airplanes either, so I don't give a crap about it anymore. I'm glad the SEALS took out Bin Laden but I can't watch shows on the SEALS 24/7. Plus, the words "hero" and "heroes" are so overused now that the true meaning of "hero" has been shamefully diluted.

 

I think you'll love that book, Hauksbee! I'm not in lock-step with every word but overall it is packed with info and a great read. Loads of photos, too.

 

No release date for my book, other than the super vague "next year." I'm in the process of editing stats, then I have to write some photo captions. That shouldn't take too long, then after that the beast will be close to being done. By far my biggest book. It's as big as all my other books combined, and then some.

 

BTW, what ever became of Boistrancourt? Still working on ground objects?

Edited October 21, 2015 by JFM

[Hauksbee 103]

 BTW, what ever became of Boistrancourt? Still working on ground objects?

Yes...Boistrancourt. I'll give you a qualified 'yes' on that. It started out looking like a pretty easy, straight-forward task. It was anything but. I've been doing 3D modeling since the beginning (1994) And while I'm not ready to crank out a Pixar-quality video, I really felt I knew my way around. However; (without getting tediously technical) modeling for video games is a whole different breed of cat. Building the model itself is the same. After that it all goes off the rails. It's not that any one step is so difficult, it's that there are so many of them...mostly counter-intuitive to how things are done if one is simply making a video animation. I availed myself of many tutorials on-line. Sim Outhouse was a big help. The problem was always that a small step in mid-procedure would get left out and my model wouldn't work. I sent many non-starter models to RAF_Lou. When they didn't work, I'd go back to SimOH (or some other) and ask why things had gone awry. Sometimes I got an accurate answer, sometimes not. There was a lot of this back-and-forth, questions-and-answers, try-and-fail. Finally, sometime in August, it just wore me down. I told RAF_Lou that I had to back off for a bit. At the same time, I was gearing up to leave Massachusetts and move to Wisconsin. That is now done.

 

My plan now is to post a Craig's List ad looking for someone who will sit down with me and walk me through the procedure of building a G-max model and importing it into the CFS3 engine. There about 14 video game companies around Madison, plus Univ. Wisconsin. I'm sure I can find some computer-literate person to mentor me. The models below are some test pieces. (1) the colored blocks are to be imported into the game to test the scale of adjacent objects. The red center block is 5 meters high, the yellow is 4, the purple is 3 the green is 2 and the blue is 1. (2) Seeing as so many of the WWI airfields were out in the countryside, I've started building some typical French farm buildings. The one below requires no textures. The colors are assigned to the geometry.

 

So...the project is still alive, if struggling. I know that as soon as I can get one model built and installed, start to finish, the procedure will be simple ever after. It's just a matter of getting all those little details lined up together for the first time.

.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Hauksbee

[JFM 18]

Holy mackerel! I had to take a nap just after reading that first paragraph! No wonder you needed a break.

 

Unfortunately, I'm just a "gimme Boistrancourt!" guy and can't offer a farthing of help in any regard. I think it's awesome you are still considering the project in light of what you've done and what you still have to do. Fantastic! Many thanks and best of luck.

 

Wisconsin. I lived there for six years as a kid, 1970-1976, on the west side of Madison. I absolutely loved it. Back then, at least, it was clean, safe, Americana. Hopefully it still is. The winters were ass-kickers for my parents but I was a kid--I didn't have to drive, shovel, etc. I just got to sled, build snow forts, have snowball fights, etc. There is a deep place in my heart for Madison, and Wisconsin in general. I would have been content to live there forever but my dad's career took us away.

 

My dad worked as a sportscaster at WISC-TV and my mom worked at the University. My dad had to travel to a lot of sporting events so we were always taking him to the airport. Back then, there were no jet-ways to board the planes. At Dane County airport (I think it has an "official" name now) you walked up the stairs to the plane like the President. They had observing areas where you could stand and watch this, right off the ramp, just surrounded by a chain link fence. So we'd stand out there and watch my dad go. The plane would only be a hundred feet away or something. So you fire up three Pratt & Whitney JT8D engines on a 727 one hundred feet away and it's like the power of the gods crushing you into the ground when they started taxiing, it was so loud! No worries about noise in 1970. Not as loud as an F-16 in full afterburner or a Harrier hovering, but still awesome! Then the plane would turn and taxi away and the smoky, warm exhaust would wash over you and blow little pebbles in your face. Awesome! People would be holding their ears with their clothes flapping in the smoky exhaust and I'd be holding the fence and breathing in all that P&W goodness through a giant smile! Being exposed to that over and over again as a young kid fueled a passion for airplanes that has never left.

[Hauksbee 103]

Ahhh...that good P&W exhaust! No doubt, made you the man you are today.

 

One of the things that has sustained me throughout the G-max ordeal is that there are some things that I've always wanted to build for OFF/WOFF. I've always wanted to mod the SE-5 and Nieuport fighters so the Lewis gun on the top wing will elevate to the 'reload' position and fire. Better to sneak up and under two-seaters. I've wanted to mod observation balloons with beau coup machine guns and flak so they are the hornets nests they were in real life. I'd like to mod, and animate, a balloon crew bailng out of the basket.

 

Most of all, I want to build an elegant chateau for the BOC. This model will certainly require advanced texturing. But, if you're gonna dream...dream big.

.

[Olham 164]

Geeze, I had no idea that the modelling was so different from what you'd expect!

Thank you for all your endurance, Hauksbee - the latest Boistrancourt version sure DOES look great IMHO!

I am, like JFM, the "gimme Boistrancourt" type of pilot, but I find it looks great already, so how about Roucourt?

 

There you "only" needed to plant many trees, a viallage (do you have access to the houses WOFF already uses?),

and then there is that castle. You above one looks great; I guess with a tutor you could do it.

Or so I secretly hope - but take your time; running hot ain't no good.

[Hauksbee 103]

Thank you for all your endurance, Hauksbee - the latest Boistrancourt version sure DOES look great IMHO!

...and 'Thank you', Olham. But, bear in mind that Boistrancourt (as we know it in WOFF) is all RAF_Lou's work. Nothing of mine is in there...yet.

 

As I understand things from Lou, there are model libraries in WOFF/CFS3, and buildings and trees can be copied and pasted as needed.

 

One other thing I want to build at Boistrancourt is the White Chateau and its Gate House. I have a file with about six very good photos of the chateau. My problem at the moment is establishing scale.

.

[Olham 164]

Hauksbee, here is an architectural sketch which I think you can use as a guideline.

A story on a Chateau seems to have a height of ca. 4 m per level.

The ground one is mostly lower.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2015 by Olham

[JFM 18]

If Lou did all that stuff in Boistrancourt, he should ("should"--sooooo easy to spend someone's time for them!) be working on simpler airfields, like Roucourt and Toulis and LaBrayelle, where you won't be tortured with making extra stuff, Hauksbee. I have a lot of maps and photos of Roucourt, when he's ready to go. I know OBD asked you guys to step back a bit but, I say this nicely, screw that! Then we'll never have airfields because they have so much to do as it is.

 

Cool chateau. I'm not in the BOC but I'd install that chateau! (And not just to bomb it.... heh heh heh) Can't wait to see that baby finished. And I'm all for your ideas for the airplanes! You have a lot of interesting ideas cooking over there.

[Olham 164]

I have a lot of maps and photos of Roucourt, when he's ready to go. I know OBD asked you guys to step back a bit but, I say this nicely, screw that!

Then we'll never have airfields because they have so much to do as it is.

 

Absolutely DITTO to that!

[Hauksbee 103]

Cool chateau. I'm not in the BOC but I'd...

Not in the BOC? Be'demmed, sir! I have the cure for that. Olham? Assemble the lads for a vote!