IL-2 Cliffs of Dover: Pepe vs Felnor...

[Hauksbee 103]

Eight and 3/4 minutes of beautiful rolling, twisting, turn-and-burn flying.

 

[Olham 164]

Geeze, what a tough fight! With a surprising end! Great show!

Couldn't really see what happened at the end - I guess the cannon fire shot a wing of the Spit,

which hit the Bf109 a fracture of a second later?

However - tough beasty, the 109, though quite plucked in the end!

[Hauksbee 103]

Couldn't really see what happened at the end - I guess the cannon fire shot a wing of the Spit, which hit the Bf109 a fracture of a second later?

 

I really thought the Spitfire was going to take it. He kept making small hits on the 109 and I thought he would wear him down. Then his wing came off. 'Hard to say if the wing hit the 109. At the end though, he was missing one aileron and the opposing wing looked very chewed upon. But he was still flying. I guess we must assume he made it home.

 

This shoot-out reminded me of something I'd read about duels between Mig-15's and F-86 Sabres. It said that many a Mig arrived back home riddled with .50 cal. bullet holes, but the Sabre was a heavy, very complex piece of machinery, and getting tagged with a single cannon round usually put it out of commission.

[Olham 164]

Yeah, Russian technology seemed often simpler and more sturdy in those days.

 

But in the above dogfight, the Bf109 was the more advanced technology.

Still it seemed (in this sim) more robust than the Spitfire. I watched it in step motion -

the Messerschmitt seemed to clip off a whole wing from the Spit with it's own.

 

The German fought too much a turn fight in this video, which isn't the best tactic

against a good turnfighter like the Spitfire. He should have used the strong engine-

climb of the Bf109, and the fact that it had fuel injection (so you could fly headover

loops) for a much more vertical fight. More boom and zoom.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Olham

[Hauksbee 103]

Yeah, Russian technology seemed often simpler and more sturdy in those days.

 

the Messerschmitt seemed to clip off a whole wing from the Spit with it's own.

 

The German fought too much a turn fight in this video, which isn't the best tactic

Russian technology: True; they realized that aircraft would be serviced in the field by young men without much education.

 

Clipped the whole wing off: Wow! I'll have to watch that again. So it wasn't a cannon shot. It happened so fast that I just assumed...

 

Too much a turn fight: I wondered about that too. Still, so many commentators say that the Spit and the 109 were very closely matched. Then they'll say: 'but the Spit had the edge in a turn, and, the 109 was a bit better as an energy fighter'. An edge? A 'bit' better? How much is a 'bit'? I wonder what that translated to in real life?

Edited December 14, 2015 by Hauksbee

[Olham 164]

Well, there are many points to watch about a fighter plane and it's qualities.

In this video, which I had posted here before, you can learn a lot about the Bf109's features -

watch the 2 longer scenes where the pilots explain the aircraft.

 

Don't be afraid of the Japanese speaker - the American pilots original sound/language was kept!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rmmh2Jd9uM

 

 

And watch the vertical climb in the second slomo video, at ca. 1:30 minutes!

 

 

 

I guess for a tight turn fight the Spitfire was better, not only for it's possibly tighter turn, but for the better

allround vision for the pilot, and for the space in the cockpit, which allowed the pilot to move a little for

getting an even better view.

But I guess when a Bf109 wouldn't have to cross the Channel first, and therefor have to care about it's fuel;

and if it was used for proper boom & zoom tactics - then I would have prefered the Bf109.

 

At least if you'd fly it in "Cliffs of Dover", you'd be all over the Spit - just remember: no turnfights.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Olham

[JimAttrill 24]

Eric Brown criticized the Bf109 (and the 110 for that matter) for the 'automatic' leading-edge slats which would come out unevenly in turns causing aileron snatching and making it very hard to aim.  So vertical fighting was the best way.  As he flew them all I reckon his opinion is worth taking notice of.   I also doubt whether that is built into any sim.  He found the cockpit of the Bf109 very cramped and he is a rather short person - 5'7"

[Do335 382]

Hi guys,

 

I've watched the comparison between the 109 and spit in the past with some interest. For the spit the eclipsed wing means low lift with low induced drag, so while the 109 can have the initial instantaneous turn rate advantage, it will lose energy to the spit if the turn fight prolongs. The 109 performs a lot better in the vertical so its tactics are mostly that of energy, like spiral climbs, immelmanns, hammerheads and chandelles. I think it's not that different from Mig-15 vs F-86, the difference is the spitfire (some sub variant at least) and mig-15 are the better ones at altitude. The bf109 and F-86 are the better ones at dives.

 

Youtube has many clips of CLoD online pilots. Like this one a typical spiral climb:

 

and the same pilot talks about the spit's counter.

https://youtu.be/Zlf62w8-rcg?t=20m44s

 

These guys spend hundreds of hours flying and I guess CloD is as real as it gets so I generally take it all in.

[Hauksbee 103]

Eric Brown criticized the Bf109 (and the 110 for that matter) for the 'automatic' leading-edge slats which would come out unevenly in turns causing aileron snatching and ....

Jim: What is "aileron snatching"? I've never heard the term.

[JimAttrill 24]

Now you've got me!  I am not a pilot but will read his air tests of the Bf109 and 110 to see if I can figure it out.   I reckon if the slats on one wing opened before the other it would have the effect of feedback to the control column as if the ailerons were moving themselves.  The book is "Wings of the Luftwaffe" where he tells what just about every Luftwaffe aircraft was like to fly.  He liked some things about their aircraft, like the inertia starting systems and the colour-coded controls for engine, fuel etc but was not wild on the greenhouse effect in some bombers like the He111.   I think the book is still available online - I got a second-hand copy which had been 'retired' from a library in Oregon of all places. 

[Hauksbee 103]

 He liked some things about their aircraft...but was not wild on the greenhouse effect in some bombers like the He111.

Another effect I'd never heard of. Is it the outside/inside temperature differential fogging/steaming up the glass?

[JimAttrill 24]

No, he found that the many small panels made it hard to see properly - especially as the war carried on and the glass quality became poor.   The He111 had a hole in the roof and the pilot would stick his head out in order to land (I kid you not!).  As the hole was opened a little windscreen came up in front of it.  Rather like open cockpit flying. 

[JimAttrill 24]

Here are some excerpts from his report on the Bf109G flown in August 1944: " had to he flown off as any attempt to pull it off the ground early resulted in aileron snatching as the wing slats opened unevenly [..] The elevator heaviness was perhaps a necessity in view of the high wing loading of the Bf 109G as over-application of longitudinal control in manœvres easily induced the slats to open, which, in turn, gave rise to aileron snatching and completely ruined sighting of any aircraft being attacked."  

The wing slots were "automatic Handley-page leading-edge slots".   These were independent of each other with no linkage. 

And of the He 111:  "In bad weather the surfeit of transparent panels was downright dangerous and the fact that this was recognised was to be seen from the provision made for elevating the pilot's seat and controls for landing and taxying, allowing his head to emerge through a sliding panel in the upper decking where it was in part protected from the slipstream by a small retractable windscreen.   This instant Tiger Moth transformation in a frontline bomber always symbolized for me the eccentricities of functional design that the German aircraft industry seemed to come up with from time to time, and which, surprisingly enough, seemed to be accepted by the Luftwaffe". 

And of the Bf 110: "the Bf 110 suffered from the same serious fault as the Bf 109 - the automatic slats kept popping out unevenly in tight turns, sighting being ruined by the resultant lateral wobble [...] As with the Bf 109, care had to be taken not to hold off too high as the automatic slats were activated as the speed decayed and could cause a wing to drop." 

 

These negative things notwithstanding, Capt. Brown liked most German aircraft he flew, with the exception of the He 177 which he thought felt like a "glass aeroplane", referring to its lack of strength and not the glass windscreens. 
 

Wings of the Luftwaffe Pilot Press Ltd 1977