Why I Am Insistent On Modern Computers/Gfx Cards

[RIBob 39]

Today, I installed BoB II (Wings of Victory) into my Win 10 computer, along with a specific patch which is intended to allow running the game on win 10.  It seems (with some little investigation) to have allowed the game to run properly.

Why am I posting this here, in an EAW forum?  Because the fundamental lessons learned are valuable ones, and pertain to EAW users.

When I investigated the Graphics settings within the game on the win 10 computer, the game had set almost all the Gfx settings on the maximum level possible.  When I compared these same game-set settings to my very inferior Win 7 computer, I found that quite a few Gfx settings could not be set to max, and some not near max.   Comparing the same game, win 7 versus win 10, revealed that the game looked MUCH better and played at least as well in Win 10.

This is the second experience I have had in playing old games suitably modified for playing on Win 10.  See my posts here about Crimson Skies game.  This is the second--of two--old games that I have successfully installed into Win 10, and which games looked and played a LOT better than in Win 7.

Now, the fundamental point to all this IS NOT that the games be able to be played on Win 10.  That is another, important issue; Another topic.

What IS pertinent is that my win 10 machine has a fairly modern CPU, a fairly modern Graphics card, and is running on SSDs.

Since my Win 7 machine also runs on SSDs, and has a decent, but ancient, Core 2 Duo CPU, and a vintage Nvidia GT 730 Gfx card, and since the Gfx features on this computer are relatively limited vice the Win 10 computer, I have come to some tentative conclusions.

On the Win 10 computer, either the vastly better CPU (8th Gen I7), and/or the equally, and vastly better Nvidia 2060 OC PRO Gfx card allow the inherent Gfx features to become available to the user.  Even on these vintage games.  Obviously the Win 7 computer, as configured, disallows many Gfx features, and the Win 10 computer allows such.  I don't know the point in-between these two end points wherein lies the "sweet spot", but I reckon that "spot" is moving upwards, all the time. in order to accommodate modern games. 

That said, Win 7 computer users might want to investigate whether or not their CPU can be upgraded to a more modern one, and whether their Gfx card can be upgraded.  Gfx card major upgrade will probably involve a Power Supply Unit (PSU) upgrade.  Your old Win 7 computer might, or might not, be able to be upgraded to a point where the Gfx features of these old games will be accessible.

The physical dimensions/configuration of your existing win 7 computer is a factor.  My Win 7 computer is a Small Form Factor, and thus quite limited in the allowable upgrades to its components.  Those having much larger computers, such as tower computers, might find upgrading of various components much easier.

In sum, the fairly decent Win 7 computer I have is upgraded to its' max.  It's old, and if the CPU fails, it is not replaceable, since it is permanently attached to the MoBo.  My win 10 computer runs all vintage games that I can find/install at full-on Gfx settings, and that difference is VERY apparent while looking at the monitor.  The win 10 computer has never stuttered even with IL-2 with fill-on Gfx settings.   With some games, the enabling of ALL inherent Gfx features has been visually stunning.  Other games a detectable improvement.

.So, even if staying within the win 7 universe, consider upgrading your existing computer to handle FAR better CPUs and FAR better Gfx cards.    I suggest some investigating at the following, as they are quite objective, and pull no punches: https://www.tomshardware.com/ 

Based on my personal experiences with games formerly played on Win 7 system, and the same games being played on Win 10 system, the difference in the visual results can be dramatic.   It goes without saying that with the modern Gfx card 'stuttering" is a thing of the past. I attribute most of this to the modern Gfx card, which the new Power Supply allows,  Your Win 7 system, intelligently upgraded, can give you visual results, and frame rates, heretofore unobtainable.  

Submitted for your consideration.

 

 

 

[RIBob 39]

I would add one thing, since editing of the above post is no longer allowed.

It is completely understandable why many modders construct their mods to be compatible with older computers.  I get that.

However, such construction of mods/depictions perhaps limits users of more modern computers and Gfx cards, particularly those using greatly upgraded Win 7 computers and modern Gfx cards.  Is it possible to construct mods/features to be useful to both users of legacy computers, and also be fully available to users of more modern computers?

I understand that I, as a mere User, am asking the Mdders to undertake an additional burden.   I also understand that there are certain, inherent limitations within the platform/coding.

Still, a question un-asked is a question that will never be answered.

Submitted for consideration 

 

[RIBob 39]

Further addition, posted elsewhere:  

To continue, the following is a link that is concerned with stress-testing computers:  https://www.pcworld.com/article/2028882/keep-it-stable-stupid-how-to-stress-test-your-pc-hardware.html

Performing such tests will reveal weak points in one's computer, and if such are present, will also suggest possible improvements.  Such might be as elementary as simple wire-re-routing to provide better cooling air flow, perhaps the installation of additional fans are required, or even liquid cooling.

A very basic evaluation of one's Power Supply Unit is to connect an in-line $20 "Kill-A-Watt" meter to your computer's power cord, and then run your most demanding game, with everything set to the max.  If your wattage draw is no more than 90% of the max wattage output of your PSU, you should be OK.  The max output wattage of your PSU will be written somewhere on it.  Rely on no other figure other than what is printed on your PSU.

The "Kill-A-Watt" meter is an essential tool for those who wish to know which devices use how much power, and when such power is consumed.  Sometimes surprising sources of energy wastage can be discovered.  The "Kill-A-Watt meter is a very useful tool.

[RIBob 39]

NOTE: I am neither an electrician nor a computer whiz.  The remarks below are for comparison and informational purposes only, and they reflect what happened on my equipment.  Use at your own risk.

After performing some limited, preliminary, tests on a couple of different computers,  it would seem that the two games I tested, the BAT version of !L-2 1946, and Crimson Skies (Widescreen) do not move the power requirement "needle" much above simple idle.   The games were allowed to set their own Gfx "preferences". 

For example, a Dell 760 SFF OptiPlex with Intel Core 2 Duo CPU, Nvidia 730 Gfx card (49W max draw), and 240 W Power supply, idled at about 66W.  Playing BAT raised wattage requirements to 102W, Crimson skies to 99W.

On the Dell XPS computer, with I7 8700 CPU, Nvidia 2060 OC  Pro Gfx card, and 600W Power supply, idle was 72W, BAT was 75 W, and CS was 78W, which, incidentally seems to confirm that the new 2060 Gfx card allows some gfx features formerly unavailable with lesser Gfx cards. 

I attribute the variance of wattage draw between the two computers as being due to the GT 730 Gfx card having to work "harder", and so drawing more power than the 2060 card, which easily played both games without breaking a sweat.

There are certainly games which demand more of one's power supply than the ones I tested.  However, I was surprised at how little of the available power supply was used. by these particular combinations of games/Gfx cards.  YMMV.

The real test will be when I install an Nvidia GTX 1050 Ti Gfx card (75W max draw) into a Dell OptiPlex 790 SFF computer with the same 240W Power supply as the Dell 760 mentioned above.   Since the 1050 Ti card only requires an additional 26W vice the 760, given the "headroom" available, this should not be a significant issue, IMHO  I should add my testing seems to indicate that there is sufficient wattage "headroom" to do so.  The Nvidia 1030 card which currently resides there goes into the 760 OptiPlex because it is a definite upgrade, AND, it actually has a smaller Wattage draw then the 730 GFX card (30W Vs. 49W.

Submitted for your consideration.

[RIBob 39]

Just did some testing today with the 790 Dell OptiPlex SFF computer.  It has an (upgraded) I7 2600  3.4 Ghz CPU, 16 Gb RAM, and is running Win 10 Prox64 Operating System.

First series of tests were done with the Nvidia GT 1030 GPU.

Idle: 32W

Wings of Prey (a variant of IL-2): 93 W

This was merely to establish a baseline, and so far, so good.

I then installed the Nvidia 1050 Ti GPU, which has considerably more power draw.  The question was:  Will it work in this computer with the non-upgradeable 240 W PSU?

Idle: 50 W.

Using the downloadable "MSI Kombustor" stress-test program, I tested the GPU at the "Medium++" level, which is to say, about 95% GPU usage.  Wattage use was 182 W,, which is well below the desired Upper wattage limit of 192W (240W-10%=192W (IOW, 90% of PSU capacity).   This is nominally a 75W GPU, so even running it at 100%, the wattage required will still be within desired limits.  This program deliberately stress-tests the entire computer, GPU being a particular focus.  I have yet to test a Flight Sim that comes close to making demands on the computer that a "stress test" requires.

I also installed and upgraded the old MS Crimson Skies game, so that it will run properly on Win 10.  I regret that my notes are incomplete as to its Wattage use, but IIRC the wattage used was approx in the low 90s.  I'll revise this figure tomorrow, if need be.

To my delight, the GTX 1050 Ti card made available the "Shadows" and "Ground Clutter" features, heretofore unobtainable with an Nvidia GT 730 GPU.   Along with having all the other Gfx features set at Max, these additional gfx features really transform the visual aspect of this old sim.   The result is a pleasure to view, and some of the vids on YouTube show the "Shadows" features.

So, this is the entire point of my upgrading exercise so far.  Some intelligent upgrading can be done even to SFF computers.  Such upgrading will likely allow the use of Gfx features that were formerly not accessible, and not over-stress the components of the computer.

Submitted for consideration.

[RIBob 39]

On further investigation, replacing the Nvidia GT 730 card in my Dell 760 SFF computer with an Nvidia GT 1030 card allowed the formerly unavailable graphics features on Crimson Skies (seen on other computers) to become available.  Some of the relevant selections were initially de-selected/turned-off by the game/computer, but when I selected them, and played the game, the selected items remained activated.

For those interested, I have tried to insert a Nvidia GTX 1050 Ti card into this computer.  It is perhaps a 20-25% upgrade over the 1030 card.  While nowhere the top of the heap, it is a reasonably decent card, and the retail price shows it.  Such a card might be of use to some players--YMMV.  Unfortunately, the card did not physically fit.  However, a solution might be at hand, namely a "PCEI extender cable" which cable links the existing PCIE slot to a flexible cable which connects to one's graphics card.  Such an arrangement will, I hope, allow installation of the Nvidia 1050 Ti card into the Dell 760, although some jiggering might be necessary. 

The point to all this is to submit that, given an elderly computer with (Maxxed-out) 8GB RAM,  an Intel Core 2 Duo CPU (not replaceable), and a  modern SSD feeding the system, one can definitely access formerly unobtainable graphics features on some games..

I suggest that one take a close look at the gfx settings available in all one's games.  Tinker with them to see how much one can elevate the settings before one runs into problems.  With older games, the settings will likely be higher than with newer games. IOW, a modern computer will probably run a  modern game, like IL-2, on reasonable settings.  One's older computer will likely run out of capacity, in any number of areas, running modern games at anywhere near max.

Unless you upgrade your older computer, intelligently. 

Older games need less capabilities, but can still benefit from intelligent upgrading.  Modern games need the same upgrades.  So why  not upgrade your older computer, to get the most out of what you have, and play some modern games, perhaps at less diminished levels that you might formerly have thought?

[RIBob 39]

I'm about done with investigating this topic.  I believe I've established that even modern Gfx card upgrades, starting with the Nvidia 1030 point reveal formerly "inaccessible'" GFX content, even on very old games, like Crimson Skies.  No telling what such upgrades will do with more modern games: no doubt for the better..  

As for myself, I've maxxed out all the old computers--nowhere else to go.  RAM upgrades to max, Gfx cards to the limit of non-replaceable PSUs, and Gfx cards at the limit of what the PSU will allow..   They have their bottlenecks, as in non-replaceable wimpy OEM power 240W Power supplies, limited RAM,  and SFF Gfx card limits.

OTOH, my Dell 790 OptiPlex SFF computer has an upgraded 2nd gen I7 CPU, 16 GB RAM,  SSD drive, and an Nvidia 1650 Gfxcard. It plays most modern games at max, or very nearly max settings surprisingly well.  Before I began my experiments, I would not have thought this practical--or even possible.

Submitted for consideration

 

 

[RIBob 39]

Posted elsewhere, but this tidbit might be of some use:

"Just got home, and ran ‘Windows Experience’ feature on Win 7 computer.  Formerly had Nvidia GT 730 Gfx card installed, and new card is Nvidia 1030.  Score on Gfx features went up from 7.0/8.0 to 7.8/8.0.

 

 Seems demonstrated that “Windows Experience has little “headroom” for Gfx cards beyond a certain point.  No surprise that your new  1050 Ti Gfx card had little impact vice your former 1050 card, with respect to “Windows Experience"—you were already maxxed-out as far as that feature is concerned.   The feature only has a certain amount of "headroom", so to speak, and is incapable of anything else beyond original settings.  FWIW, the feature is discontinued on Wim 10. The important thing is that the card is of benefit to you.   Even installation of a modern SSD only bumped that particular aspect of the “Experience” to 7.8/8.0."

 

Whether or not "Windows Experience" can "see" a benefit to a Gfx card, beyond a certain point, is entirely independent as to whether YOU will see a difference.  I suspect that your games, and your visual experience, will benefit from upgrading to Gfx cards above the 1030 level, which "Windows Experience" has apparently set as the max allowable. 

 

With a little luck, and a PCIE extension cable, I'll be installing an Nvidia 1050 Ti card into this wimpy little Dell 760 SFF computer.  I doubt that "Windows Experience" will notice, but I am willing to bet an objective observer will be able to do so.

 

Submitted for consideration.

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by RIBob

[RIBob 39]

Unfortunately, the 1050 Ti card failed on installation into 2 different computers, although it ran, initially, on one of them, and more unfortunately, just beyond the 30-day warranty period offered by Newegg, the vendor.  This is the second card bought from that specific vendor which has failed just out of warranty.  Possibly a coincidence.  YMMV.

I'll have it tested by my computer guy, just in case.  In any event, back to the old reliable Nvidia 1030, at least for now.  At least the 1030 card plays Crimson Skies in all its' glory, and unlocks the features not offered by the Nvidia 730 Gfx card.  FWIW, even the Nvidia 1030 card FAR surpasses the Gfx requirements of most older sims, EAW specifically included.

This is unfortunate, but in my other computers I have Gfx cards that FAR, FAR exceed the deceased 1050 Ti card.  Just lamenting on the $150 spent to no use.  I'll get over it, lol.  

Submitted for consideration.

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by RIBob