CaptSopwith

I echo Lou's sentiments. Have a safe journey and I hope all goes well. We'll be here when you get back.

I echo your thoughts Olham. There really was nothing romantic about air combat in World War I. The idea of the chivalrous dogfight, with two pilots squaring off to duel was an anomaly during World War I. If you were a fighter pilot between 1914 and 1918, your ideal dogfight was to catch your enemy from behind and shoot him in the back before he ever knew you were there. I noticed something interesting about MvR's tally. I don't see a single Be2 Quirk or an RE8 on the list. Did MvR never shoot one of those down? If that's the case, I'm surprised after reading about how these two types were essentially easy meat. I also noticed that even the greatest dogfighter of World War I only bagged 3 Bristol Fighters - I bet even old Manfred was leery about tangling with them!

...starting tomorrow, February 21. So, I'm turning 29. I'm prepared for all of the "you're still just a damn kid..." comments you can fling at me. In fact, they will probably help as 29 just doesn't even sound like the right number. To be honest, they stopped making any sense around 25. Every since then it's been a feeling of "okay... so I'm how old now??" I remember announcing my 18th birthday over on the Delphi Forums. I'm pretty sure I was "the kid" by a pretty decent margin back then. Aw Hell, I guess the "getting old" part starts now...and I had just gotten really good at being young.

Wow, well put as always Shred. I need to go visit these places in person. Thankfully, in my future line of work I will be able to. Perhaps a "research" trip to the Flanders region is in order in a few years. I already have Munich on my "to visit" list for work. @Olham, have you visited these battlefields in person? If so, what's your take on them? @Shred: I know what you mean by "you are not alone." I had a very similar experience at the Gettysburg battlefield. I have no idea why - I haven't traced by family history back far enough to know about the Civil War, so I have no direct ties, but there is such a strong feeling, an emotion that creeps up on you as you visit and grows more and more the longer you stay. By the end of the afternoon at Gettysburg, my family and I (I was only 14 at the time) felt ready to leave - that a weight had been placed on us that we didn't feel at the start of the day. There is something to it... and I don't easily buy ghost stories either.

Wow... I think these are the first photos I've ever seen of No. 24 RFC with their DH'2s. I'm so glad you posted this, JFM... this put chills down my spine. Wow.

I echo Lewie's sentiments - we're a community, not just a bunch of pilots. I'm glad to hear that Max is okay too! I've had quite a few dogs in my time and tragically, none of them seemed longed for this earth. I switched to cats and found they seem to last longer around me. I still have a soft spot for dogs, though and Max is a handsome fella. I'm glad he's home with you and yours. Cheers WM.

Well, I certainly wasn't slighted in the least either, Pawgy - of course, I wasn't around for the first post! I'm glad you're getting the feel for OFF - it does take some getting used to. So let me add my welcome to you. To try and help, I searched through my posts for something I wrote a while back that seems to describe OFF - and what makes it what it is - pretty well. I've added here in case you'd like to read it. During the 15-20 minute breaks I've taken in the last few days while working, I've been playing a lot of Call of Duty 4 on my PC. I've played all of the COD games and I'll likely wind up with Black Ops for Christmas - as I asked for it a few months back (I should have asked for TrackIR lol). And I've noticed a perceptible difference in how I feel after playing a CoD game versus flying a mission in OFF. Now, take the following with a grain of salt - your mileage may vary - these are just my own odd opinions. First, both are immensely fun - no doubt. But a game of CoD (which on the PC features up to 50 people all blasting away on a single map) is a frantic, run and shoot affair. There are always targets in front of you. You sit, clicking away on your mouse, sending rounds downrange while taking fire from all directions. Push too far up the map and your opponents start spawning behind you (we call it a spawn flip). Take cover for too long and you're labeled a "camper" (can you imagine what they'd think of Trench Warfare!? ). Do too well and you must be hacking. Etc. I end a game of CoD feeling hopped up - like a junkie getting a fix, wanting another kill, but never feeling really satisfied. Fire up a mission in OFF, on the other hand, and it's a completely different experience. By COD comparisons its a much slower game. You fly, you look around, you wait. On any given mission you might have one or two dogfights - but usually you'll see dots in the distance and never encounter much trouble (at least when you fly in 1915 as I am). And I feel so much better after a mission in OFF. Is it tense and exciting? Absolutely! But it is so much enjoyable than a quick, manic game of shooting up in CoD. I feel satisfied with the time (and I'm very aware of my time these days lol) I invested in my choice of game. OFF feels great to play, immensely satisfying to fly, and after I'm finished, I feel refreshed and inspired to get back to work. I played one more game of CoD today - and wound up being banned from a server. Why? Because I took cover for too long and hopped to get out of a window. Silly me! It was at that moment when I came to my senses, thought "What the hell am I doing here?" and went back to my OFF career. I flew another Fokker EIII mission, saw no trouble over the lines, and landed safely without ever firing a shot. And I felt great! I guess my rambling point is this. While the gaming community at large seems to view us as a group of fringe oddballs who worry about details that your average CoD player could care less about - I'd much rather be a "fringe oddball" of a "niche" community, than continuing to battle among the masses who think war games should be fought by running into the streets, shooting as many people as they can before they are mowed down, and then repeating. While CoD had its hooks in me for the last three years - I just don't get it anymore. It reeks of the mindless lather, rinse, repeat gaming that seems to be flooding the market these days. It's time to suit up again - put back on the goggles, dust off my old pilots and give OFF the attention it deserves. Thank God my old Sidewinder 2 joystick (which I've had since 2000) still works! Cheers! OFF is a different kettle of fish - but if you put the time into it, it will reward you like no other "game" out there - and that's because, as Olham will quickly add to my post, OFF isn't a game at all! You've also lucked out - you've stumbled upon one of the best bunch of guys to mingle on a board. Sure we all have our odd personalities, myself included, but you'll rarely find a more helpful and enthusiastic group. Keep asking questions, post your results as you fly and we'll be glad to give the advice where we can. I'll take a pint of Guinness myself. Hey, Olham - what is this Warsteiner Pilsener you keep talking about? Perhaps I should try one someday.

Bingo. My apologies for being a tad too obtuse with my historical references.

I believe that's what we call "pulling a Hess."

I'm sure this has been done several times, but as Winder, Pol, and the rest of the members of OBD are pulling long hours and working hard on P4, now seemed like an appropriate time to thank them again for all of their work. For me, having known a lot of these guys for years, this is a very personal thank you. The last few days has re-fired my passion for these great sims, and OFF in particular. It has also given me a new appreciation for all of the great sims that have come before. The great thing about a lot of the OBD members is that they were responsible for those moments too. I've always felt somewhat inadequate as a member of the flight sim community. I can set up and run a flight sim, add a new flight model, swap some sound effects out to my liking, and tweak everything from my nvidia card to dgvoodoo to get things to run the way I want them. But I've never been able to make a patch, paint a plane properly, create a new terrain set, or tweak data files to create a more realistic flight model for a Fokker Dr1. The closest I've ever gotten was writing the history of Red Baron 3D's community many years ago - and with the advantage of time, I cringe over the clunkiness of some of those passages. But you, on the other hand, have given me so much. Ever since I stumbled upon the ancient Delphi Flight Sim Forum in 1999, my flight simming has benefited from their handiwork. I've flown over Rabu's terrain, piloted Royce's flight models, expanded RB with Pat Wilson and SWWISA's WFP, watched CdT make new models, and followed every step of Otto's work on Hell's Angels. The list goes on and on... I'm lucky enough to consider many of these guys my friends - or at least they've been stuck with me for so long now they tolerate my posts well. And while I know many of those "old timers" moved onto other things - so many of the core Red Baron modders moved to work on OFF. And nothing has come close to this amazing project called Over Flanders Fields. I remember the messages James sent me to come check out this new project back in, what was it, 2005 or 2006? While my old computer didn't have a hope of running OFF, I kept my eye on it. You were there working on this thing when there was no one else around in the WWI sim genre. Sure, we all got our hopes up over various projects but most of the professional, studio backed efforts fizzled and failed. And as new projects came and went, the OFF team kept working away. P1, P2, and then P3 BHAH and HiTR. The sheer amount of work done on OFF, the intricate attention to detail, the graphical fidelity of the sim, the flight models, the AI, all of it - to turn a mediocre WWII also-ran flight sim into a world class WWI simulator has to be the most remarkable thing I've ever seen from a group of modders scattered across the world. The work is stunning. And sometimes you have to step back and really marvel at it to fully appreciate the mammoth labor of love that we lucky pilots get to save on our hard drives. And the community that has grown around it is equally impressive. I haven't enjoyed posting on the boards this much in years - it feels good to be back and it feels good to make the time to do it again. Flying missions in OFF, posting my adventures, the exploits of my pilots, and immersing myself in the screenshots and stories of my fellow pilots, all scattered across the world too, keeps the excitement for flying going strong. The biggest thing about OFF that keeps all of us rabid addicts coming back for more is this: It feels right. It just does. And feeling is something you have to know in your gut - you can't program it into a data file. You guys absolutely nailed that part. So please, keep up the good work. As I said in another post, you're one of the very few left fighting the good fight. Whatever you charge for P4, I'll pay for it somehow - even on my shoestring budget. This isn't a labor to make money, it's a labor of love, and it shows. I'm sure the "profits" you've made off of the sales of OFF probably just barely cover your server costs - let alone the hours you spend working away on the sim. I'm sure if you calculated the hours I played for whatever it was I spent for P3 and HiTR, you would make fractions of pennies off of me. And for what we've paid, we've gotten more than enough bang for our buck. From the constant updates, to the open door policy to find out from us, those playing OFF "in the wild", what you can do next to make a great sim even better has been worth far more than the asking price. Just know that while there's very little I've done to contribute, I am incredibly grateful. Without OFF and the work of Winder and everyone else involved, my gaming world would be a much poorer place. No matter how long it takes, I'll be here watching for the next round of previews, rooting on the team, and lining up to buy the final product. Something tells me, I won't be alone. In the meantime, if I can ever be of assistance, let me know. Best Wishes for the successful completion of Phase 4. CaptSopwith

Lewie, you are a genius sir! MST3K is one of the greatest works of art in modern times, possibly ever. I'm as diehard of a fan as they come. Well played, sir, well played.

Hi guys. I was flying a patrol with 24RFC this morning in February 1916 on a flight over the front. Along the way we ran into a flight of Bristol scouts with the strangest paint scheme I've ever seen. Their pant scheme had wheel bitmaps and part of their rudders appearing on their elevators. I snapped a screenshot, but Windows is telling me the file isn't supported and I can't get it to open so a written description will have to do for now unless I run across them again. I wanted to bring it to your attention. My workshop settings have the planes set to normal res. If you need any further details, let me know.

Hey Pol. I probably figured it was a one-time hic-up. I haven't seen many of those in OFF. I went ahead and attached the log file - I had no idea those things were so intricate... gives you an idea of how much OFF is doing behind the scenes. Hope this helps.

Thanks for sharing this one Creaghorn. I'm not one for re-incarnation by any means, but dreams like that do make me pause and scratch my head.

Tbolin. Let me say welcome to the boards and welcome to OFF. You won't be disappointed with BH&H. I just wanted to say that I echo your sentiments about being excited to fly a new sim. It was a long decade between RB3D and the next big thing for me, which was OFF BH&H. I followed and played P1 and P2 as OFF developed but I didn't have the computing horsepower to really run anything. Thankfully, my new computer arrived around the same time P3 was nearing completion and it was worth the wait. Think back to the most atmospheric, immersive sims you enjoyed in the past and OFF is exactly that, immersive. Flying a patrol over the lines, hearing the flak bursting nearby, watching for other planes in the sky, and then feeling your stomach knot up as you see a group of planes approaching, but aren't sure yet if they are friend or foe. That's OFF to a tee. It's the first sim I've played that made me happy just to return in one piece, let alone rack up any kills. You're in for a treat man, and you found the right group of crazy pilots to share the experience with. I've been on various boards over the years, and this is by far, one of the absolute best. Let us know if we can help with anything and I think I speak for everyone when I say, we look forward to your first combat reports and impressions of OFF. Cheers!

Many thanks guys... I'm glad my words were appreciated. I'm sure seeing this many replies, however, is really boosting the guys over at OBD! And that makes writing the original post worth it. Cheers!

Looks good to me so far Dej. I've always felt an affinity for Hawker and your picture captures the emotions I feel when I read about the man and what ultimately happened to him.

I know! No matter what icon file I assign to the .exe, the Games window just will not display it correctly! Computers... I swear.

Well, I have some disappointing news... I think NFSPU is a loss. I ran through a few races to see if the game worked when I installed it and everything seemed fine. But it seems I have the same issues you experienced - regardless of what Windows 7 settings I have checked. My crash comes later but on the same track, Normandie. Every time the game locks, flashes black, and crashes to the desktop. I've tried every setting I can think of but to no avail. Looks like it's just a no-go with Windows 7. Which is interesting... out of four games that refuse to work on Windows 7, three of them are EA brand NFS titles: Need for Seed II, High Stakes, and Porsche Unleashed. The other game is Worms Armageddon. Again, not really a major loss. Frustrating though, to be sure. Hopefully the rest of the collection is okay.

And it comes from a jet sim - the mother of all jet sims actually - Falcon 4.0 I was reading through my Falcon 4.0 manual this morning and came across this passage. It was written by Gilman "Chopstick" Louie, the creator of the Falcon series and also a key member of the late, great studio, Microprose. His thoughts on flight sims were fascinating to read. This entire passage is tucked away in an appendix in the massive Falcon 4.0 manual. And while he's describing a jet simulator - something almost totally alien to what we usually fly - his ideas I think explain why OFF is a great sim. "Ask programmers and designers who work on combat flight simulations what features are critical, and most will define a great sim by how accurate the flight model and avionics are. Create a set of pre-scripted missions along with a few videos and voila... you have a simulation. "Unfortunately, to create a great simulation, a flight model, avionics, enemy AI, and good graphics are only the start. The purpose of the Falcon series is not just to simulate the aircraft but the entire fight pilot experience. Our goal has been not just to replicate the flight dynamics, avionics and visuals of flight, but to include the elements that make up the combat environment." "Falcon 4.0 is comprised of two completely separate simulations: the campaign and the air combat simulation (ACS). While most games focus only on the ACS, Falcon 4.0 spotlights the campaign..." He later elaborates on the compromise between total realism and the idea of immersion. "For experienced combat pilots, flying the real F16 is 99% boredom and 1% adrenaline. If Falcon 4.0 had the same ratio, nobody would buy the game. Falcon 4.0 like most games, increases activity levels to keep your interest engaged. The action you see in one Falcon 4.0 mission is equivalent to two to five real combat missions. The number of missions you fly in a day has also been exaggerated. On the other hand, Falcon 4.0 does not feature a super plane with unrealistic performance and weapons. Once in an engagement, the simulation realistically depicts what real F16 pilots can do." I could be completely wrong, as I can't read Winder's mind or anyone else on the teem, but these ideas strike me as close to what the OFF designers were aiming for; accurately simulating a combat environment as well as the aircraft that flew over it. While you may run into more flights than you would in reality, it is the simulation of an active and ongoing air war over the Western Front that is of paramount importance. Without that, you're left with pretty graphics and an accurate flight model, and little else. Every great flight sim I've ever played has featured a dynamic campaign system. All of the classics I've been dusting off this week feature that. And it's worth noting that even other current WWI flight sims are working to create such a system. Just thought I'd share. It seemed like some interesting reading. Cheers!

Lou, I don't think you could have written that any more poetically if you tried. That was a great read. As for me, the short version can be reduced to three words: Wings Of Glory. The long version goes like this. My grandfather built me a few plastic model planes from WWII when I was a kid. Spitfires, Me109's, that sort of thing. I loved them, but since they were models and not robust toys, I often broke them in a few days. He was far more patient that I could ever be, and always built me more without question. I was fascinated with dogfights and planes from that age on. I remember mixing some Star Wars in with my WWII dogfights - giving the German planes the menacing howl of the Tie Fighters as they flew by. Then, many years later, I stumbled upon the demo of Wings of Glory in a copy of PC Gamer magazine. Which, much to my happy surprise, is still going strong lo these many years later. (http://www.pcgamer.com/). The demo featured one mission from the game - flying an SE5 with Charles Dearing and two Rookies as you attempted to take down three observation balloons. Of course you run into a few skirmishes along the way, including a very angry and brightly colored Albatros CIII that fired in four round bursts - something I still catch myself mimicking when I fly to this day. It was only one mission, but I probably logged 100 hours on it. My parents bought me the full game for my Birthday the following year but alas, it refused to run on our computer and the whole thing - beautiful box, color manual and poster, all went back to the store. I wouldn't play through Wings of Glory until 2010. Then a few years later, around October of 1998, I was shopping at Wal-Mart with my mom - I was 16 years old and still learning how to drive. We walked through the game section - a ritual of mine whenever we went there - and living in a tiny town in the South, Wal-Mart was usually your best bet for finding video games in the pre-internet era. There, sitting next to a collection of puzzle and deer hunting games was the box featured in my signature - complete with the sticker advertising a free coupon for Red Baron Pizza in the box. I've never begged so hard for something in my life. Mom caved, dropped 20 bucks, and the rest was history. I flew Red Baron II on our month old Dell computer - which still sits in the corner of my apartment in a place of honor - with only my keyboard, but I was hooked. I found Delphi a few months later when we got dial up internet access and... half of a lifetime later, at 28, here I am.

Hear Hear Lou! BH: I think your assessment of the market right now is spot on - all of the main line releases are usually made for consoles and then ported to PC's, a complete reversal of the situation ten or fifteen years ago. However, I don't think the future is quite that grim - the market is shifting, yes, but sims like rFactor, iRacing, and other show that there's still the hint of a pulse left in the market. Also, I'm noticing that I'm not the only retro-gamer out there. I had never heard of GoG until I saw it posted here, but there's probably going to be another niche market for selling classic games that run on current systems. What's the old saying, I'd rather be an optimist and a fool than a pessimist and right? The market may well be doomed, but I'll keep telling myself otherwise and hope that there's more Winder's out there. I have a good hunch that there is. Cheers!

@Rubyfan: I haven't played very far into career mode. I've installed a few enhanced patches and there was a modded .exe file I found that solved a few problems PU developed with high CPU's (these included incredibly ugly low res textures and the Parkinson's hand issue when your driver shifted gears). So far it runs smoothly. I've started evolution mode and bought my first car and I haven't seen any problems yet (knock on wood). I do run the game with administrator privileges granted but that's it. I should also stress heavily that I'm running Windows 7 Pro 32bit - which likely makes a difference with these Windows 98 era games. Hope this helps!

Alright gents, here is the final tally. All told, I cannot believe these games installed so smoothly, with so little work. Getting games like Red Baron to run took less effort on this machine than they did on the original Dell rig I ran it on in 1998. The only casualties in my collection were: Worms Armageddon, Need For Speed High Stakes. That's it. Everything else is there and I've added the ARMA2 Demo and FS-WWI for good measure. The collection now stands at 54 games, according to Windows. What you don't see are the DOS Box games I added. They are: Wolfenstein 3D (plus 5 expansions and custom versions of the game), Doom, F117A Stealth Fighter, World Circuit, SeaWolf, SimCity Enhanced, Star Wars: Rebel Assault, Wings of Glory. The ARMA2 demo is quite interesting. I think these so-called "niche" games, as the gaming media likes to refer to them as, are going to be right up my alley. Speaking of Alleys, MiG Alley is also up and running successfully, again with almost no effort - and certainly a lot less than my Windows 98 days. Flight Simulator 2004 has also been added. It recently turned buggy with my installation of IE9 Beta, but after doing some research and trying a fix that solved a previous conflict with IE7, FS2004 is now fully functioning again. I haven't calculated the hours of gaming I've collectively installed on this machine, but I would think it would take years to actually play through everything. Even OFF would take that long - if I tried to fly with every squadron included. P4 will long since be out by the time I finish that list. In short, I don't know how I did it (I'm pretty sure it wasn't me), but this was the most sublimely set up PC I've ever had. I'm going to image the drive, sit back, and enjoy. I'm glad you guys have enjoyed reading along with me - this was the best use of a few sick days, ever. Cheers!

Well stated as always, BH. I had been keeping loose tabs on COD and this is the first I've heard about them throwing the campaign overboard. Here's my thoughts on the idea of flight sims shifting towards online multiplayer as the focal point of the game... My friends from college and I often play on XBox Live. Our game of choice is usually Call of Duty or Battlefield. Half of the time we're catching up on each other's lives and BS-ing about the day as we're shooting at the enemy. Don't get me wrong, we usually do well, but it's as much of a social tool as it is a game - especially now that we're all scattered across the country. But we often have a saying when we play: "Online gaming would be great if it weren't for the people." I know that's a bit of an overstatement - online multiplayer is, of course, about the people. But in games like Call of Duty or Battlefield, who you're teamed with determines the outcome of a game as much as your own skill; playing with a crappy set of people can ruin a night. In short, the experience will vary wildly depending on who wanders onto the server while you play. This type of gameplay seems particularly out of place in a flight sim - especially if it's made into the main event and not an additional feature. I know online squadrons have been around forever and - having been lucky enough to fly with a few of them over the years - flying a mission together, with an objective - even something as simple as patrolling the Front - can be incredibly satisfying. But that experience is unique. 99% of the players don't get to experience that. And even if you do, what are you supposed to do for the other 10-12 hours a week when you and your squad can't get together and fly online? What replaces that gap is critical. If there is a deep, immersive, dynamic campaign to go to, then you have a great sim. But if it's nothing more than a collection of single missions strung together - the replay value is limited at best. The Harley analogy is apt here. (I'd like to add that yes, I know the community is the lifeblood of a sim and if OFF had an easy to navigate MMP component, we'd likely fly online. But I think the main thing that draws us together is reading those reports from the front which comes from... the dynamic campaign system). And what if you aren't one of the lucky ones to fly with an online squadron? What if you're just another in a line of thousands of hapless fliers hopping on to what is essentially a Call Of Duty style team deathmatch server with Me109's and Spitfires? What kind of experience is that? I remember the free for all servers in Red Baron - and from the standpoint of someone who loved the campaign system - hopping on to a server filled with people flying Fokker D7's and Sopwith Snipes and "vulching" kills as people spawned on the field was aggravating - not fun. And surely the type of player who is attracted to an Il2 or a Cliffs of Dover game has at least a tacit interest in the history. If not, why not just pick up HAWX for the Xbox 360 and be done with it? Without a dynamic campaign system, the game is left with pretty graphics, incredibly detailed nuts and bolts simulation of aircraft, and that's it. And as "Chopstick" put it in 1998, that's not enough. If your sim is built around the Battle of Britain, then I want to experience the Battle of Britain! And an online, "capture the flag" server is not it. I have to admit, I'm a little bit angry about this. If a sim nut - a guy like Oleg Maddox - who clearly appreciates history - can be ordered to throw out a campaign system by his publisher, than perhaps the OFF and, now that they've been bought out by 777 Studios, even the ROF method - for all of its controversies - is the way to go. Jettison the publisher. Third Wire also does this very well, come to think of it. And studios like Battlefront have built entire businesses around internet releases of "niche" products. It seems clear to me now that we'll never see another Falcon 4.0 or a Red Baron 3D released by a mainline publisher ever again. Those games had a metric ton of content and an infinitely repayable campaign system. Activision would never touch a game like that - there's no DLC to sell for $15 a pop after you sell the game for $60. Those days surely ended when Microprose, Rowan, and Dynamix, shut their doors. Thankfully, we have people like Winder and groups like OBD who still understand what these sims are supposed to be about and work hard to get it right. Like you said, BH, we happily take the good with the bad - quirks and all. And I have no doubt in my mind that that is exactly why I've spent the last three evenings reinstalling games I bought at the end of the 1990s when I was still a teenager. Why? Because those games do what we wish these studios would do now. I own IL2. I probably have every campaign and every set of missions ever released for the thing. I run it with maxed out, eye-popping graphics. It's a hell of a flight simulator. And yet, I've never felt anything for it. I appreciate it for its technical achievements, the scale of work done by it is remarkable, but it has never once stirred anything in me. The moment I got European Air War to run - a game I bought in 1999; that was locked in at 640x480 resolution at the time of its release; a game built to run on 3DFX video cards; in short, a dinosaur even compared to the now ten year old IL2 series - I got goosebumps. Once the music cued up, the hair on the back of my neck stood up, and I felt a tangible shot of adrenaline. Why? Because EAW nailed the feeling of being a WWII combat pilot. The menu art, the music, the subtle touches, and most importantly, the dynamic campaign system that the game shipped with, made me feel like it was real. At no point during even the most intense dogfights in IL2 did I ever feel like I was a fighter pilot in WWII. It's the difference between the cold but classically trained trumpet player, and the gritty jazz musician that is a bit sloppy, but can leave you in tears. These current day sim makers lament a shrinking market. And, as much as it stinks to admit, we are a small group. You're never going to make a billion dollars off of a flight sim, ever. The market is completely different today than it was 15 years ago when Falcon 4.0 was being shown at E3. The masses have come to gaming, and hardcore PC gamers - and flight simmers - don't need to be courted anymore. There's money to be made selling Angry Birds on iPhones and map packs for Call of Duty. But sadly, if Cliffs of Dover really did throw the baby out with the bathwater in terms of the campaign, they seem to be making their situation worse by trying to be like all of the other "games" out there. And I don't know about the rest of you, but the reason why these sims hold such a warm place in my heart - something a video game, by all logic, shouldn't do in the first place - is because they aren't like every other game out there. We love these sims because they are unique, not in spite of it. If we're doomed to move into an era of DLC packs, and Massively Multiplayer campaigns where everyone flies in a free-for-all in historic planes, then we'd better pay well for Phase 4 and tip Winder and the rest of the team early and often. These guys are the few out there that still fight for what the "old school" sim builders stood for. If not for them, I'm not sure where we'd be as simmers. Just my 2 cents. I've probably had too much coffee today.