stephen honey

Haven't been here in a while... work commitments. I started on some Italian Nieuport 11s last year as part of a skin project to accompany the N11 I posted at the time. Hopefully I'll be able to revisit them soon to finalise them for uploading. It's been so long since I looked at them I can't remember which ones they are. I know there is a generic skin and also, I think, Stoppani, di Calabria, and Baracca (pre 'Ferrari Horse' logo). I think I may have some initial workings on an Italian Hanriot.

In short, if it's near enough it's good enough. Paint technology was still a reletively new science at the outbreak of the war. Whilst most natural pigments had been already superceded by more stable synthetic compounds developed during the Industrial Revolution, the suspensions and base colour may still have been derived from organic sources. Linseed oil and lead based whites were still commonplace and their rate of degradation when exposed to the elements would have affected the colours. The emerging car industry in the years leading up to the war and advances in the internal combustion engine during the war accelerated petrol-chemical technology resulting in a range of stable by-products suitable for paint production. But it was not until the 1920's that modern paints as we know them started to appear. I think the variation in the colours that each 'skinner' chooses adds an authenticity, in some way mirroring what would have probably happened at the time. Pilots would have chosen a 'livery' for their aircraft and had it painted maybe, to reflect some of their own personality. Whether it be to instill a fear into their opponents or create a feeling of security within themselves when they climbed aboard their 'trusty' machine. This is more prevalent with many of the German Aces seeming to have a greater artistic licence and drawing on their ancestral past for inspiration.

ouch.. every time i go in weapons modding i have hard time and bugs.

 

From what i know you can use two methods to add guns to your plane: First is the "pilot method". You create a new "pilot" in the ini which infact is your weapon model and you localize it to be on the good part of the plane. It's the simplest method but the bad side is that you won't see the gun in cockpit view.

 

The second method is to add your gun as a gunpod station and this is the hardest method, but at least you see the gun from everywhere. I dn't know to do it.

 

You should talk to Whiteknight he is familiarized to this, he added lewis guns to a spad7, nieuport21 and things, i think he knows his stuff.

Thanks for the quick response Nixarass, As the guns were on the top wing I wouldn't be too worried if they weren't visible from the cockpit view.

Following some requests, I have begun working on a few new skins for the excellent N11 modelled by MontyCZ. The N11 RNAS 3891 flown by Dallas is depicted as having a twin Lewis gun mount on the wing. Can the existing single mount model be changed to incoporate this modification? Can anyone help please.... I'm O.K. with the skinning, hopeless with the tech stuff. I know I've asked for a similar thing before relating to the moving of the single Lewis to the fuselage for Navarre's red Nieuport. (I almost completed that one but found speculations as to the correct version so am doing a bit more research). Thanks

I hate to sound pushy, but if any of you skin job fella's have a bit of time on your hands, is there any chance you might take the Nieuports; 11, 16, 17 & 24 into the paint shop and give 'em a coat of RFC PC10?

 

I'd be forever grateful! :yes:

How many Nieuports had PC10 as their paint scheme? I must admit I haven't fully looked into it that much, even when I was concentrating on the paint schemes for the earlier French scouts. The RNAS had the 11's but weren't they clear doped and had a combination of French and British markings,(I have a skin nearing completion). I have seen a camo colour scheme for Dallas's 11... or was it a 16? Albert Ball flew a 16 for a while, but wasn't that camouflaged in green and brown also? If there is a PC10 version I'd happily skin one.... I'll put together some RFC 17s as well. (I haven't tried any of the 17s 'cos I could never get the gun variation placements to work). I am also thinking of skinning the blue nosed 11 used in Turkey. Do we have a suitable terrain?

stephen honey:

I checked in my "French Aircraft of the First World War" by Flying Machine Press and this is what they had to say:

"Nieuport 16's were usually fitted with the same Lewis gun as the Nieuport 11's; these were mounted in the top wing. However, when the Alken gun synchronization gear became available it permitted some Nieuport 16's to be fitted with a forward-firing Lewis gun mounted on the top decking of the fuselage."

 

Since the Nieuport 16 uses a Nieuport 11 body and a upgraded 110 hp rotary (the same as the Nieuport 17), you can not tell the difference between a Nieuport 11 and Nieuport 16 by most pictures. As a result, it sounds like Navarre used a Nieuport 16 versus a Nieuport 11. Since I finished my other mod at the moment, I will attempt the convert the Nieuport 16 from a overhead Lewis to a deck mounted Lewis for you.

 

Panama Red

Many thanks for this Panama Red. I agree, there is little external difference between the two models. The 16's did tend to have a headrest on the turtle deck but this could have easily been removed, as was often done, to increase visibility. Maybe it was to trick the enemy into thinking that this was the earlier and less powerful version. Good luck with the conversion. Navarre's Nieuports are well documented in their colour schemes. Some have already been submitted in the download section, a red one could be a welcome addition. Also the short lived but unique blue 'Le Vieux Charles' of Georges Guynemer.

I must really compliment you on your skin, it looks great and welcome to the forum.

 

A question though, have you ever seen a picture of his Nieuport 11 with the Lewis mounted on the fuselage or provide a link to a picture showing this ??? The reason the Lewis was mounted over the top wing was that the Allies did not have the German interrupter gear yet like the Fokkers, so without an interrupter gear, they could not mount the Lewis or Vickers on the fuselage without steel plates on the back of the prop or risk shooting the prop off. It was not until they captured a downed German plane with it's interrupter gear that they developed their own interrupter gear and mounted that on the Nieuport 17, but by then Navarre should have been shot down and out of action.

I was surprised when I saw the photo of Navarre's 'Bebe' with a fuselage mounted Lewis for same reasons as you highlighted. I checked further and found this snippet, ironically, placed on the Combat Ace Forum a month ago by HomeBoy.

'I have been puzzled by the fact that the B.E.2c in OFF has a fuselage mounted forward Lewis gun that obviously fires through the prop (i.e. is synchronized). I was unaware that there were any Lewis guns configured this way so I started Googling. I found this fascinating article':

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/vie...20-%201391.html

The relevant excerpts follow.

There was apparently experimental success with synchronizing the Lewis. The problem with the Lewis had to do with the mass of the round and the acceleration necessary to get the bullet going. This delay apparently made synchronizing the Lewis difficult . (I've always wondered about that!). Anyway, here is the excerpt:

QUOTE

It is possible that success was delayed because the standard machine-gun used in British aircraft was the drum-fed Lewis, and all the early experiments were conducted with it. It suffered from two disadvantages: it could fire only a limited number of rounds before having to be reloaded, and the masses which had to be accelerated in the gun were so heavy that the fitting of any kind of purely mechanical interrupter or synchronizing gear was a difficult matter. (A synchronizing gear for the Lewis gun was in fact designed by Sergeant-Mechanic Alkan of the French air service and fitted experimentally to a few R.F.C. aircraft in the spring of 1916.

Here is the photo I mentioned.

That is simply awesome.I'm very glad to see you doing more skinning work.I hope i don'rt come off as greedy but do you have any plans on making a "generic" Nieuport 11 skin?Thanks again for the excellent work.

I don't think you can come off as being greedy with amount of contributions you and many others have made. I look at it as returning a favour in a small way.

I do tend to start off making a generic skin.. but it usually ends up being personalised as were the original aircraft. I am working on a few more individual 'Bebes' at the moment. I will skin some more and keep them 'plain'. Do you have a preference, R.N.A.S., French, Belgian, Italian, Russian..... or all of them.

Whilst we're on the subject of the Nieuports, is ther any way to remove the wing mounted gun and place a single Lewis on the fuselage. I was thinking of Jean Navarre's red Nieuport 11. Or even a captured version with a Spandau.

the same auther also has a really great Fokker DVII skin.There is also a "generic" SE5a skin by the same person.I just love them.

Thanks for the kind comments......and thanks to the original 3D modellers of all the aeroplanes. If it was for the great work that they do there wouldn't be anything to put the skins on. I haven't posted as many schemes as I would have liked to, I put up a few ALB DIII's a while ago but wasn't happy with them so I'll have a look at those again. Also a couple of SE5's that need another look at. In the meantime I've almost finished one of a few Nieuport 11's, just a few tweaks here and there to do. If I have permission I'll post the first very soon, again all credit to Monty CZ for his original model. I've re-skinned and clothed Geezer's excellent Narrow Pilot model for this one. Hope that's O.K. Here's a couple of preview pics.

This is driving me crazy, Its seems like the Nieuports (Mainly the N 17) are the most fragile aircraft in the game. one or two hits and the wing is gone and i'm tumbling outta the sky. I keep getting suicide missions to attack Gothas and my flight can't get anywhere near them. I've tried everything i can think of, getting high and making a fast diving pass is the only tactic that has kept me alive so far, but i can't seem to put enough rounds into the bomber to even slow them down.

 

How do you guys handle this situation and does the Nieuport seem a little too fragile to anyone else?

I'm glad I'm not the only one experiencing the same fragility with the Nieuports, I thought it was my feeble piloting skills. The only remedy I considered for not being shot down was to shoot myself in the foot and get hospital confinement... or defect and become a Gotha pilot. Also, although it could be my computer which was I think built just before the Nieuport came into service, I find the 'Bebe' to be a bit unresponsive and sluggish, as opposed to it's reputation for being a 'sporty' aircraft.

Hello! My meager $00.02.

 

Wolff's March D.III and the plane with which he was photographed (D.632/17) are two different machines. According to Ferko, 632/17 was delivered to Jasta 11 19 April 1917. Ferko wrote it was later overpainted in purple, but Greg VanWyngarden has stated that by this time the Jasta 11 red overpainting was in full swing and the plane was likely overall red, as was Schäfer's, Allmenröder's, Manfred's, etc. This cannot be proven, but I agree with GvW (just stating my position, not trying to suggest my agreement adds any sort of weight to GvW's claim).

 

I mentioned Schäfer. His black fuselage/empennage D.III was lost when he was shot down 22 April. When he was shot down and KiA 5 June by No. 20 Squadron, their Squadron Record Book states "red scout." He was with Jasta 28 by then, but certainly received a new machine while still in Jasta 11 (he had victories with Jasta 11 after his 22 April downing, prior to his assuming command of Jasta 28) that must have been painted red, and there is that fantastic photo of Schäfer standing next to a solid-color Alb. So, again, two machines.

 

Regarding planforms, SSBucky is right that the pale green/olive green/venetian red camo was used on the first D.III production batch and later discontinued. Dan-San Abbot's research indicates the 2nd D.III production batch (D.600-649/17) had the pale/olive green only. This cannot be seen on Allmenröder's or Schäfer's or even Manfred's 3rd production D.789/17 (I don't even know of a 100% certain photo of this machine) but this two-toned camo may be seen on other Albs. So, something like below (although please understand I am NOT suggesting Wolff's plane bore this pattern, only illustrating an absence of venetian red; the Wolff photo shows a centrally located dark band that sloped left, but I have not drawn this planform):

 

 

However, the Idflieg order to remove the venetian red was made 12 April and stated that "dark green and lilac should be used only." However, the second production D.III machines were ordered in February 1917. ??? Did they have advanced notice? Were they field painted post 12 April to remove the venetian? Or is the sloping band on Wolff's D.632/17 olive green flanked by pale green and venetian? (I'll run this past DSA and see what he says.) Some D.III (OAW)s used green and mauve, but it is my understanding that this didn't reach the Albatros-Johannisthal machines until the D.V, the first of which were ordered in April.

 

WW1 colors and markings. Each "answer" comprises several more questions!

 

Anyway, my take on D.632/17, which is based on the famous photograph:

 

 

All these new skins! I have to get on the ball and download them all--especially the Albs, my favorite German machine. Thanks for the work and making them available.

Many thanks for the added information and the graphics, they help greatly and are easier to interpret than the text descriptions. Interesting to see that you have the horizontal stabilisers in green as opposed to just the aileron. I was following the rule of thumb along the lines of Allmenroder's Albatros. Throwing in another question, how much 'artistic licence' was given to each individual pilot. Would they have had total say over their individual paint schemes considering the reverence they were given amongst their peers at the time. I think I'll re-gather all the bits of information I have and put them with the new bits to try and make something a little more definite..... (does anyone have a time machine, (bullet-proof preferably), so that I can go back and take some colour photographs?)

quote name='Southside Bucky' date='Nov 23 2008, 04:41 PM' post='216479']

Without wanting to over complicate things, I think it's worth mentioning that there is another school of thought regarding the colours of Wolff's early D.III:

Some "experts" are of the opinion that the early Albatros flown by Wolff, which would have had the centrally placed upper wing radiator, only had the rear fuselage and tail painted purple. A purple version of Schaefer's D.III, if you will.

It would appear from that photo, that the D.III Wolff's standing next to is the later variant with the off-set radiator, and was possibly painted overall red, but with a green nose and elevator. This would kinda fit in better with other J11 schemes like Allmenroeder's and Brauneck's.

Decisions, decisions, eh?

Bucky

It is difficult to get the details 100% right, especially with conflicting opinions and accounts. A trawl through historical books and the internet doesn't offer anything in the way of wholly corroborating evidence. Several months ago, (probably nearer last Christmas!) I was working on some Albatros DIII skins for a Jasta 11 flight with a view to posting in response to request in the forum. I'm still doing them because I've changed my mind so many times as to what is an accurate representation. It's the lack of concrete information, particularly concerning Kurt Wolff's plane, that has slowed things down. I've posted up some WIPs approaching a scheme for the 'purple' Albatros and the Jasta 11 machine that I'm fairly happy with, albeit for a few tidying and detailing tweaks here and there. If anyone spots any glaring errors or could offer some extra detailing that I could add, please do.

sorry Heck, bet you

 

You are right about the prop ..when its stationary there's nothing you can do about it (because of the engine animation rigging)

you could repaint the xxprop.tga's for the slow and fast prop but i doubt you would notice it in game and it would still be 2 bladed when it stopped

 

for the headrest

You will need to make a copy of the SE5a folder and rename it and all the associated ini's I'm afraid, and alter the new SE5a.ini file to reflect the changes (a new aircraft)

 

extract the SE5A_DATA.INI from the ObjectData.CAT and put it in the new folder and then edit it with this...

 

in the [Fuselage] section add

 

[Fuselage]

ModelNodeName=Fuselage P

ShowFromCockpit=TRUE

HasAeroCoefficients=TRUE

--------snip---------

SystemName[009]=BombRack4

SystemName[010]=HeadrestR

DetachNode[001]=Aldis Sight

 

and under the [bombRack4]

add a whole new section

 

[bombRack4]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

--------snip---------

MinExtentPosition= 0.14,-0.33,-0.68

MaxExtentPosition= 0.01, 0.27,-0.54

 

[HeadrestR]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=5

StationGroupID=2

StationType=EXTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=0.00,0.00,0.00

AttachmentAngles=0.00,0.00,0.00

LoadLimit=1

AllowedWeaponClass=FT

AttachmentType=NATO,WP

NumWeapons=1

ModelNodeName=Headrest

PylonMass=0.0001

PylonDragArea=0

FuelTankName=

 

works well

have fun :yes:

Wonderful, many many thanks for this! Of the two things I requested information about, this was the more important to me. Maybe we can put the 4 bladed version, (plus nose spinner), on the wish list if there is a new official patch in the pipeline.

W.I.P. Here's a couple of preview pics of the first of a series of new SE5a skins I'm working on, Capt. G H Lewis No 40 sqn.

There are still some detailing tweaks here and there to finish off. There should be no headrest, however, is it is possible to remove this from the original model?

Can this be done with text code or does it have to be taken off the original 3D model? Also, is it possible to create a 4 bladed propeller version?

If these are possible it will greatly increase the skinning options. Hopefully someone can offer some technical help. Thanks in anticipation.

Yes, working on several bits, time permitting, long term stuff includes detailed skins for a set of Alb DIIIs Jasta 11. A set of detailed SE5a skins, various aces. I have a blue nosed one of Billy Bishop but someone beat me to it with an upload. (Was hoping to release it September 11th, Billy Bishop died on this day in 1956, the exact same night I was born). I've also been experimenting with some sound files to create a wind buffeted open cockpit effect. Hopefully I'll upload some very soon. Interesting to see the use of other terrains compatible with FE.

Hi stephen. You didn't go into much detail about your problems with pilot skins so if you've already figured this out...well nevermind. Anyway, I decided I'd experiment with it. Looks to me like although you can alter the 4 stock pilot.bmp's you cannot copy and rename them to make "new" pilots. I tried it every way I could think of and no go. The game simply reverts back to the basic 4. However you can add 3rd party pilots such as the WWIGERPILOT (Sorry, I don't recall who did this one....somebody help me out here. ) with no apparent limit. Here's somes screenies of "Manfred" and "Lothar" with a couple of squadmates.

 

 

Manfred is the WWIGERPILOT model and Lothar is actually a British pilot model WWIPILOT from another addon...just to illustrate the different models you can use. Hope this helps you in your work.

 

TS

Yes, it seems you've encountered the same problem, but I didn't realise about adding the 3rd party pilots maybe there's a possibility there, thanks for that. The idea initially came about when I was working on some Alb DIII skins for an April 1917 Jasta 11 group. There was a request for the 'red' squadron sometime around last Christmas, (sorry can't remember who posted). It was then that I thought it would be good to take advantage of the more detailed pilot bitmaps that came out with the FE updates and have the individual aces to accompany their aircraft. Unfortunately other work has slowed the project down. Researching paint colours and schemes for accuracy also takes a lot of time. I have one that is 99% done, Kurt Wolff ( with red sock hat) and his green tailed Albatros. I'll put up a preview pic in the next few days.

Hmmm....I figured there would be more interest in this aspect of the game. Oh well, guess I'll move on to something else.

I'll express an interest. It's these lateral thoughts and ideas that increase the dynamics of the game, so congratulations for working on this aspect. Flying at several thousand feet in a canvas and wood box with a car engine bolted to the front must have been a experience to say the least especially if somebody is trying shoot at you at the same time. Introducing these realistic stress elements will highlight the limitations, fragility and vulnerabilty of these aircraft. If it was possible within the game, I would also like to see a tweak to create an active sceen that gives limited visibility through oiled stained goggles, especially with an engine hit. (We already have a tweak to increase head shake).

I haven't made many contributions to the game other than a few aircraft skins and one of the reasons why is because I spend a lot of time experimenting with files. I'm playing around with mixing in open cockpit heavy wind buffeting to the individual engine sounds, the idea is to get an increase in pitch and severity in accordance with the speed. Also I would like to increase the number of individual pilot files to give each aircraft its own pilot, (any artwork to create the likeness of a known ace or aircraft paint scheme is not a problem for me its the technical application needed to increase the number of pilots to beyond the present five).

With regard to wind sounds: When experimenting with creating individual engine sounds to match each aircraft I have tried mixing a wind rushing sound in. It still needs playing around with a bit to sound convincing, but the idea is that when increasing the throttle to accelerate the engine the wind sound will also increase in relation to the speed. The engine sounds can then be easily added to the sound file and the appropriate aircraft.......if that makes any sense. I'll post one up to try when I happy with it.

Herr Leutnant Rumey is having some work done on his aircraft. It should be done within a few days.

Some excellent skins Sinbad, especially your re-upholstering of Keisz's flying sofa. You say you're just learning how to do skins..... I'd say you'd already learnt.

Also thanks for the Schorndorf post, some great detailed pics. If you haven't already, have a look at the restoration teams' work at memorial.flight.free.fr/fokkerDVIIuk.html

I hear you! But of course that ain't always possible when you've got several NME AC around--you take your best shot when outnumbered, sometimes any shot, when you get it... I seem to be pretty lucky with leading deflection shots lately...

 

As far as filling the screen, do you mean your computer screen?

 

SayWhat [my favourite pub in Toronto is named C'est What]: NOT trying to inflammatory here, but "POMs", I always thought that meant "Prisoner of His/Her Majesty" which referred to some [most?] of the Brits "relocated" to Aussieland, no? Thus I've heard Brits refer to Auzzies as such... [man, maybe I'm putting my foot in it here...]

 

WikiLink Actually both perspectives are mentioned here, maybe Wiki is trying to be PC...

I saw the documentary also, for the first time last night, and whilst it made fascinating viewing with regards to restrospective forensics and the amazing methods of detection displayed in an effort to come to a conclusion, I couldn't help thinking in the broader context that it's strange that anybody would wish to take credit for actually killing someone. It could be argued that the intransigence of politicians killed the Red Baron, along with millions of others that had no part in the original argument......( I'm having a realistic moment).

If you did not received another mail it was because we are waiting for some of the information requested.

 

Also I scan the Yahoo SPAM folder just in case, but It may be the case of Yahoo mail screwing up.

 

So if you don't hear in about 4 days (sometimes we take long weekends), reply to the message (or resend it if you never got the first acknowledge), but be sure that all of the information requested is complete

Many thanks for that.

Regards

Stephen

There are some fantastic aircraft coming off the assembly line from this team. I wish I had access to them. I did request to become a registered user a while back but only received an automated response. Is there another channel I have to go down to become registered?

Judging from these enquiries, there seems to have been a few teething problems with this skin and for that I can only apologise. I've been involved with drawing for years and feel fairly competent with that but on the uploading side I'm a mere novice and obviously have got one or two bits out of sync. Thanks to all who have since sorted it for me one way or another. I promise I'll get better at it, hope it hasn't spoilt any enjoyment. I see there was mention of the size of file. As an explanation, I initially resample the 72dpi templates to 144 in order to have a bigger surface to work on and so increase the level of detail, hence the increase. Personally I haven't had any problems flying the skin and I only operate on a 'dinosaur' of a comupter with a slightly overclocked AMD 1.1 gig processor and an old Radeon 7200 graphics card.

Anyway many thanks for the feedback.