Mothman

As far as i remember having read, the argentinian Canberras flew night bombing missions against british positions in and around Mount Kent. I think i recall about a Canberra being shot down at night during one of those missions. Only 1 out of the 2 crew of that plane was able to eject. I don't remember if it was shot down by a Sea harrier or a Sea Dart missile from a frigate.

Hey there. I just discovered this project and joined these forums just to say thanks to Steven Dobbs, Romano Magacho, Gustavo Wagner, Marcelo Silva, Ariel Cancio, Rafael Rodrigues, Edgardo Alessio, Dante De Patta, and to all the friends of the Jet Thunder project. This sim will be a dream come true for many flight sim enthusiasts not just from from the UK and from Argentina, but also from anyone wanted to jump in the cockpit of one of the most difficult military aircraft to fly these days, the Harrier, and those who want to dicover the courage that takes to engage and bomb missile frigates flying A-4s and Mirages. I can't wait for this sim. And i have so many questions... I know i still have to read all the posts and all the info, but: is there going to be air re-fueling operations? I ask because that was the only way for the argentineans to get there and make it back, and still having only a few minutes over the target area before having to disengage. Furthermore, the Argentinean Air Force only had 2 KC-130 tankers. Also, the Mirage III pilots could only use after-burner only for a few seconds to avoid risking getting short on fuel to return to their base. Is the sim campaign going to be historically accurate or will it have what-if missions? I ask because the argentinean carrier 25 de Mayo was only dispatched to support the landing operations in the islands of April 2nd and was called back to port to preserve it in the event of an outbreak of war with Chile. Will there be ASW operations with Nimrods, Sea Kings, S-2 Trackers, etc..? I do not mean to actually fly them, but present in the mission as potential targets. So many questions... Anyway, a BIG THANKS for this project.

Yes, probably. B) I will never forget that fly-by over the beach because it was the first one i ever saw of a military jet. Anyway, this is how i rank based on look: 1. Mirage Dagger 2. Vulcan 3. Super Etendard

Joint Operations, from Novalogic, has already some sort of interface in the map were you can build up squads and command the troops (setup waypoints, i think). Considering that there are servers for up to 150 players and huge maps (i'm talking about a lot of real estate) it is not a bad thing if 75 players can get some sort of organization and tactical guidance. I think it could work on private servers of gaming comunities, but i think that in public servers it looks like an impossible mission considering the usual chaos. lol.

To correct myself: 3 old torpedoes, right? By the way: i think we just created the first 2 pages thread of this Jet Thunder sub forum.

Thanks for the replies, Mbot. Indeed, the Mirage III could carry Matra Magics, but i'll look into the source later tonight at home where it says that the Mirage III that were downed were carrying AIM-9B. I will check on that. About that Sea Harrier, now i think i remember having read something about it, but it must have been a long time ago. I would be digging into it, just for curiosity. About the SSN not being effective in locating the fleet, i may think that Woodward kept them in the outter ring of the defensive perimeter around the carrier and did not sent them out to hunt down the argentinian task force, but i may br wrong. In any case, imho they should had sensors good enough to pick up the noise of even the smallest argentinian vessel as long as they were at a reasonable medium distance... a distance impossible to achieve if they were to remain close to the british task force perimeter (because the task forces would already be too close to each other). About the torpedoes used by the Conqueror, i think that they choosed those beacause of their bigger explosives load. Those were far more powerfull than the wire guided, and you have to take into account that the Belgrano was a big ship with some armor, a remanescence from WW2 (and a survivor from Pearl Harbor). It is ironic that they had to use an old torpedo (WW2 tech?) to be able to sink a WW2 ship.

That's a good question. Otherwise is just a waste of bytes. :P At least it takes longer to write it than read it. There's hope than someone will find it interesting. Knowing the history and the what ifs could help creating some great missions for this sim.

From the Admiral Woodward himself, about the Mirage III vs Sea Harrier dogfights: "Fifteen minutes after the ships had left, the main Task Force came under attack for the first time, from the air. Two French-built Dassault Mirage IIIs were homing in on us from a hundred and thirty miles out to the west. We had two Harriers at fifteen thousand feet over Port Stanley, but the incoming raiders were higher and they dived towards the two British naval pilots, firing one radar-homing Matra missile from four miles away, and another from two. The Harrier pilots, at a serious disadvantage, took evasive action and the missiles passed close by. The two pilots were also treated to a first-hand view of just how swiftly the Argentinian Mirage pilots could make their getaway, flying at supersonic speed. This particular fracas had, in addition, a side issue which was somewhat tiresome, in that one of the pilots reported that the second Mirage was an Etendard, and that when it fired off a missile, which was immediately reported to be an Exocet, it caused some amazingly fast action by the British ships, swinging their sterns to the threat and firing off chaff in abundance. A simple enough error, but with expensive consequences. Nonetheless that had been the very first 'dog fight' of the war, and although it had ended indecisively, the incident had apparently shown us the general tactic the Mirage pilots intended to use against the Harriers. It looked as though they planned to patrol at high altitude in order to conserve fuel, using their height and superior speed to choose their moment to attack and subsequently get away. They continued to fly all afternoon, always retaining their advantage of height, but apparently reluctant actually to attack" (...) "The afternoon was, however, not over for these two particular Harriers and they had to survive a high-speed pass from two further Mirages both of which fired their missiles, happily inaccurately." (...) "Two Harriers from 801 Squadron, piloted by Flight-Lieutenant Paul Barton and Lieutenant Steve Thomas under the control of Glamorgan, were directed on to two Mirages at around twelve thousand feet over the north coast of the islands. The first dual-missile dog fight of the war thus took place high above the clouds and, thankfully, the Argentinians missed again. Paul Barton's American-built Sidewinder, however, blew one of the Mirages in half and he watched the two sections burst into flames. The pilot ejected to safety, but it represented our first air success. Lieutenant Thomas just missed with his Sidewinder, but it detonated so close to the other Mirage as to cause severe damage. Captain Garcia Cuerva nursed his aircraft back towards Port Stanley, only to be mistakenly shot down and killed by his own possibly over-excited troops." There's an interesting reading here http://www.mirror-weekly.com/nn/show/366/32700/ by Woodward, the commander of the british Task Force. It is good to compare with the stories from the argentinian side about the naval actions during the 1st May. It looks like he did not know that the argentine task force was still nearby and had located the british task force, out of range for an attack by the air force from the continent, but in range for the A-4Qs of the carrier. The only ships close enough for an air attack from the continent were those bombarding the islands airfield and those performing ASW duties not too far. I find hard to believe that he did not know the argentinian task force location. I think he knew but couldn't afford to get closer to the argentinian air force threat. His own words, about his intentions with the operations during the 1st May: "It should also cause them to reveal their overall defence plan, drawing their naval forces out into the SSN trap laid for them and forcing their air forces to show their hand." It's good to point out some quick sources. :)

En la playa. I saw 2 of them flying low along the beach when i was a kid. I think it was in Mar del Plata. Years later i saw aournd 8 Super Etendard over the same beach. I guess the guys went out looking for hot sun tanned ladies to pick up. But that was nothing compared to what i saw in Buenos Aires near the "aeroparque" also many years ago. Almost the whole argetinian air force, including helicopters, flying in a parade for the Air Force's day. B) Now i know what "Jet Thunder" means. Gotta hear the noise! The last parade i watched was a few months ago here in Fort Lauderdale USA where i live: an F-16, and F-15, and a P-51 flying in formation. :)

I'm just acknowledging that the british had access to satellites, which the argentinians did not, afaik. They knew about the position of the argentinian carrier until it moved back to 'shallow' waters (heading towards port) where the british subs would be in greater danger of being detected. The UK had subs and satellites. Why would they risk their surface assets against the argentinian fleet? Beside, the carrier based argentinian aircraft had the advantage of firepower and range regarding air to surface missions from carriers (plus the possibility of air refueling). I think the subs could have done the job if the argentinian task force would not have withdrawn. In fact, the ARA Belgrano was escorted and, although relaxed because it was heading towards port and outside the engament area, it was zig zaging, as far as i remember having read. The escort wasn't tight enough but, as narrated by the captain of the HMS Conqueror himself, the escorts tried to detect the sub and launched several depth charges that gave the HMS Conqueror crew something to seriously be worried about for the rest of the day. If the Belgrano and the escorts would have been in full quarters during their whole trip back to port, things could have been more difficult for the Conqueror, for sure. Also, Tatcher said that she gave the order to sink the ship because she was told that the ship was about to enter a bank area were the Conqueror could not follow it (of course, the reason was to force the negotiations to stop). Consider the following scenarios: 1st scenario: The argentinian fleet remains in high waters ---> they are easier target for sub attack and are also exposed to surface attack. Air attack? I think they can be somewhat safe about that because of range issues. But the british has there the sub advantage. The argentinian diesel subs were not in their ideal environment in deep waters as they cannot go too deep and are not faster than the british ships. If detected, they could not easily evade. Conclusion: the argentinian fleet won't go to play in the british side of the field where the odds are very bad. 2nd scenario: The argentinian fleet repositioned west in shallow waters (less than 150 meters, maybe) ----> the british task force has to move west to engage them, becoming easy prey for air attacks from the continental Argentina, plus they enter the killing zone for argentinian diesel subs. The small german designed Salta and San Luis diesel subs are some serious threat if operating in their ideal environment. They are really, i mean REALLY, silent predators in shallow waters, where a british sub, for example, loses the possibility to go deep to avoid detection and evade. Conclusion: the british would not risk the surface fleet against air attack from the continent, but could send the subs, although not operating in their ideal environment. This would have been a scenario were the argentinians could level the odds while remaining at sea. Still, i believe the british subs could have done some serious damage forcing the fleet to retreat. 3rd scenario: the argentinian fleet withdraws and lives to fight another day against, maybe, the chileans. The argentinian admirals maybe thought the way i do: risking the fleet in shallow waters against only british subs that weren't much of an interesting prey was pointless (they were not interesting preys because those subs were not a threat to the argentinian soldiers in the islands... the carriers and surface ships were, instead, a threat). On the other hand, they maybe knew that going after the british task force in deep waters would have been the dumbest thing to do... although the courage was there and it could have happened. Believe me, the argentinian fleet was more worried about british subs than about the surface group and its air power. As you said, scary_pigeon, a confrontation between the two stask forces would have been something really bad (and sad) for both navies. The british fleet would have taken serious damage but i think it would have prevailed because of numbers, sensors, and training. I do not think they would ever get at gun range. The Belgrano had guns with a range of more than 20km and some armor, but the british had depleted uranium rounds. I don't know what could have happened in such a scenario, but i believe it would have been a miracle if they ever got at gun range. The scenarios i described above, reflect the same as happened with the Mirage IIIEA. Everything was about leveling the field. The Mirage fights better at high speed and high altitude, exactly the opposite to the Sea Harrier. At long range, the Mirage cannot use the afterburners too much because of fuel worries (losing some speed advantage, even at high altitude). The first air to air engagement between two Mirage III and two Sea Harriers happened after many previous encounters were none would go fight at the altitude were its enemy had the advantage. The first engagement happened when the argentinian pilots descended to meet the enemy in their side of the field. The Sea Harriers had then the advantage of a better plane to fight at low altitudes and speed and a brand new Sidewinder AIM-9L from the NATO warehouse against the Sidewinder AIM-9B carried by the Mirage. The long range Matra 530 radar missile carried by the Mirage was useless against targets flying low (lack of look-down radar, i guess). In fact, one was fired at the Sea Harriers and missed. One Mirage was downed and the other one had to attempt a landing in the islands air base because of lack of fuel to retunr to the continent. It was shot down by 'friendly fire' when the AA radar of the battery did not recognized it as friendly, as it was reported by the argentinians. Well... i hope you enjoyed the reading. lol. Maybe we went too off topic here. Dante: i read the story at the website you linked, and it was quite interesting. Very short but interesting. The only thing i think i should clarify is that the Navy's Skyhawks A4-Q did not carried 500kg bombs (as told in the story) like the A-4B and C of the air force did. They used 250 kg Snakeyes that were far better for low altitude attack than the air force bombs. I think that's why many of the 500kg bombs did not exploded: lack of the "air brakes" or retardants (or whatsoever) like the Snakeyes have. That system allowed enough time for the bomb to become armed before impact (and prevented the aircraft of overflying the ship at the same time of the bombs hitting the target). Furthermore, the A4-Q has a better targeting system (a Ferranti HUD, i think). Anyway, i may be wrong about everything. I just have read too many books about the conflict some years ago due to professional interest (i was studying international relations at college in Argentina) and many differ in many reports. Furtheremore, i love reading anything about airplanes and playing flight sims! Also, i was made in England but i was born in Argentina (thank God, or i would have had an indentity problem! lol). My parents lived in London for some time as well as my uncles did. In fact, i have an british cousin who is the only british i have ever met who believes in the righteouness of the argentinian claim on the islands. lol. I would love to play Jet Thunder with him. So please keep it real! If you need more data, or sources for all the stuff i post that are not mere opinions but aparent facts, please let me know and i'll dig again among the books i have on the conflict. I'd love to help wherever and whenever i can. I can't wait for this game! B) Edit: edited for typos

By the way, i voted for the Dagger.

Leave my beloved Aermacchis alone! lol. If i remember well (not sure), it was an Aermacchi pilot the first one to spot the fleet in San Carlos bay the day of the british landing. Anyway, the bastard engaged a frigate with its rockets. That takes some guts! Anyway, the Aermacchis were the first military aircraft i saw when i was a kid. That must be the reason. ;)

In my opinion, the argentine ships could do some damage to the british Navy, but there is no way it could stand a chance against the Royal Navy and NATO hardware. The argentine admirals knew this. They also knew that hardware isn't everything and that the human factor is important, but the odds were too big and the stakes too high. The british nuclear subs could face the argentinian fleet alone and still get away with a victory. Maybe they could have lost a sub in the process, but remember that the ARA 25 de Mayo was followed by a british sub well before the british Task Force arrived to the area. Inmho, the brits would not send the surface groups against the argentinian Navy if they can do the job with just the subs. The surface group could be exposed to surface to surface Exocet missiles and air attack while the Subs could better profit of the element of surprise, something that the surface group could not. The official statement, as i remember, is that the argentine Navy was withdrawn from the theater of operations, not just because of the sinking of the Belgrano but because it could not afford to lose any ship. There was a belief in the argentinian military that there could be a conflict with Chile soon (Pinochet always dreamed with invading the Patagonia) and that they would need those ships. The same happened with the Mirage III after the first air to air battle. They needed to preserve those fighters for the event of an outbreak of war with Chile, This is what i concluded after reading many many books. I do not always believe what i read, but so far this is what i believe. Thanks for the link. It will give me something to do right now that i am bored at the office. :P

Well... there were only 5 Super Etendard :P hehe.

Very impressive work! About the argentinian warship names, the following ships are the ones that took part in the landing operations during April 2nd 1982. Other major ships, including the Belgrano and its escorts, as far as i know never entered the exclusion zone around the islands dictated by the british government. Task Force for the "Rosario" Operation ARA Cabo San Antonio (Landing Ship) ARA 25 de Mayo (Aircraft Carrier - Flagship) ARA Hercules (Destroyer) ARA Santisima Trinidad (Destroyer) ARA Almirante Irizar (Ice Breaker - Hospital Ship) ARA Drummond (Corvette) ARA Granville (Corvette) ARA Santa Fe (Sub) Later on, during June, a sub (ARA San Luis) apparently entered the San Carlos straight, launched a few torpedoes against a british ship, then withdraw from the exclusion zone. The whole list of argentinian ships in 1982 with some details: "Salta" Class Submarines (German design, assembled in Argentina) ARA Salta ARA San Luis Displacement: 1185 tons surfaced, 1285 tons submerged Propulsion: Diesel/Electric Speed Submerged: 22 knots Complement: 32 Armament: 8x21 inch (533mm) torpedo tubes "Guppy" Class Submarine ARA Santa Fe (ex USS Catfish) Displacement: 1870 tons surfaced, 2420 tons submerged Propulsion: Diesel/Electric Speed Submerged: 15 knots Complement: 84 Armament: 10x21 inch (533mm) torpedo tubes, 6 forward and 4 aft "Colossus" Class Aircraft Carrier ARA 25 de Mayo (ex HrMS Karel Doorman, ex HMS Venerable) Displacement: 19869 tons Speed: 25 knots Complement: 1000 Aircraft: mixed complement of S-2E Trackers, A-4Q Skyhawks, Sea King ASW, and A103 Alouettes. Normally totalling 18 fixed wing aircraft and 4 heliopters. Guns: 10x40mm "Brooklyn" Class Cruiser ARA General Belgrano (ex ARA 17 de Octubre, ex USS Phoenix) Displacement: 13645 tons Speed: 32.5 knots as new, but probably below this Complement: 1000 Aircraft: 2 Helicopters Missiles: 2 quad Sea Cat launchers Guns: 15x6 inch (152mm), 8x5 inch (127mm), 2x40mm Armor: belt 1.5-4 inches, deck 2-3 inches, turret 3-5 inches, control tower 8 inches Type 42 Destroyers ARA Hercules ARA Santisima Trinidad Displacement: 4100-4700 tons Speed: 30 knots Complement: 300 Aircraft: 1 ASW helicopter ASW Weapons: 6 torpedo tubes Guns: 1x45 inch (114mm), 2x20mm Oerlikon Missiles: 4 Exocet launchers, 1 twin Sea Dart launcher "Fletcher" Class Destroyers ARA Rosales (ex USS Stembel) ARA Almirante Storni (ex USS Cowell) Displacement: 3050 tons Speed: 35 knots Complement: 249 ASW Weapons: 2 Hedgehogs depth charge rack, 6 Mk 32 torpedo tubes, 2 side-launching torpedo racks Guns: 4x5 inch (127mm), 6x3 inch (76mm) Torpedo Tubes: 4x21 inch (533mm) "Allen M. Sumner" Class Destroyers ARA Segui (ex USS Hawk) ARA Hipolito Bouchard (ex USS Borie) ARA Piedra Buena (ex USS Collett) Displacement: 3320 tons Speed: 34 knots Complement: 300 aprox Missiles: 4 Exocet launchers ASW weapons: 6 Mk 32 torpedo tubes, 2 forward firing Hedgehogs Guns: 6x5 inch (127mm), 4x3 inch (76mm) "Gearing" Class Destroyer ARA Comodoro Py (ex USS Perkins) Displacement: 3500 tons Speed: 32.5 knots Complement: 275 Missiles: 4 Exocet launchers ASW Weapons: 6 Mk32 torpedo tubes, 2 Hedgehogs Guns: 6x5 inch (127mm) French Type A69 Corvettes ARA Drummond ARA Guerrico ARA Granville Displacement: 1170 tons Speed: 24 knots Complement: 93 Missiles: 2 Exocet launchers ASW Weapons: 4 Mk 32 torpedo tubes Guns: 1x3.9 inch (99mm), 2x20mm, 2x40mm Patrol Ships (Various) ARA Comandante General Irigoyen (ex USS Cahuilla) ARA Francisco de Gurruchaga (ex USS Luiseno) ARA Murature ARA King ARA Yamana (ex USS Maricopa) ARA Alferez Sobral (ex USS Catawba) ARA Comodoro Somellera (ex USS Salish) ARA Spiro These are comparatively slow ships (12.5 to 18 knots) armed with up to six 40mm guns, except for the Murature and King, which have 3x4 inch (102mm), 40mm Bofors, and five machineguns. Fast Attack Craft - Gun ARA Intrepida ARA Indomita Displacement: 268 tons Speed: 40 knots Complement: 35 Guns: 1x76mm, 2x40mm Bofors Rocket launchers: 2x81mm Oerlikon Torpedo tubes: 2x21 inch (533mm) Fast Attack Craft - Torpedo ARA Alakush ARA Towara Displacement: 50 tons Speed: 42 knots Complement: 12 Guns: 2x40mm, 4 machineguns Rocket launchers: 2x8-round 127mm Minesweepers and Minehunters ARA Neuquen (ex HMS Hickleton) ARA Rio Negro (ex HMS Tarlton) ARA Chubut (ex HMS Santon) ARA Chaco (ex HMS Rennington) ARA Tierra del Fuego (ex HMS Bevington) ARA Formosa (ex HMS Ilmington) Displacement: 440 tons Speed: 15 knots Complement: 27-36 Guns: 1x40mm Ice Patrol Vessel ARA General San Martin Displacement: 5301 tons Speed: 16 knots Complement: 160 Aircraft: 1 reconnaisance aircraft, 1 helicopter Guns: 2x40mm Bofors Landing Ships - Tank ARA Cabo San Pio ARA Cabo San Antonio Cabo San Antonio can carry a helicopter and is armed with 12x40mm guns in 3 quad mountings. Its displacement is 8000 tons fully loaded. Speed is 16 knots. Cabo San Pio is a WW2 ship with a displacement of 4080 tons fully loaded. Speed is only 9 knots. It is listed as unarmed. Transports ARA Bahia Aguirre ARA Bahia Buen Suceso ARA Canal Beagle ARA Bahia San Blas ARA Cabo de Hornos Bahia Aguirre and Bahia Buen Suceso displace 5000 tons and a speed of 16 knots. The remainder displace 5800 tons and have a speed of 15 knots. All listed as unarmed. Fleet Support Tankers ARA Punta Medanos Displacement: 16331 tons Speed: 18 knots Complement: 99 ARA Punta Delgada Displacement: 6090 tons Speed: 11.5 knots Complement: 72 ARA Punta Alta Displacement: 1900 tons Speed: 8 knots Complement: 40 The ARA Almirante Irizar is missing from this list, but is is an Ice Patrol Vessel, usually travelling back and forth from scientific bases in Antarctica. The same goes for the Bahia Paraiso. Maybe they were not listed as military ships, and that's why i'm missing their data. There were other minor vessels as well that were on duty trying to bypass the britsh blockade. A few were hit or sunk, like the Rio Cacarana and a civilian ship (a fishing boat) named Narwall which was attacked with Harriers and Wasp Helicopters, if i remember well. I hope this was useful. The source is a book titled "Weapons of the Falklands Conflict" by Byran Perret. Published by Blandford in 1982. All the weapons are there. B)

Did the british used FAE bombs during the conflict, or was it just propaganda from the argentianian dictatorship? I was only 9 when the conflict happened but still i remember all the propaganda and misinformation they gave us at the time. There's still a lot of mysteries around the conflict, like the Sea King crashing in Chile near the argentinian border, the air strike on the Invincible, the argentinian sub attack run in the straight of San Carlos , the white flag incident in Goose Green, the reports of british troops killing soldiers who had surrendered in Mount Longdon... Oh boy. War is hell. But i think you're right about Pucaras carrying Napalm. I think i've read about it from the testimonial of an argentinian pilot in a book. As a side note, and somewhat back to the topic, the argentinian Air Force learned about the lessons from the conflict that the Pucara needed a single pilot version with enhanced firepower, such as a nose mounted 30mm cannon (the IA-58C project). I think that not just for ground attack, but also for "chopper hunting" missions (which by the way would be nice missions for the game).

And what about the Aermacchis? You gotta give the italians some credit! Those Aermacchis engaged the Royal Navy with just rockets and guns, after all.

That would be cool! Especially under stormy skies. :P It adds some "atmosphere" to air ops in both, the brit carriers and the argentinian carrier, especially under stormy skies (considering that the weather was good for flying anyway, hehe). Furthermore, something similar for airfields would be good as well (thinking about the ground crew).

Idem, here.

A nice graphical representation of the weather and the stormy seas for when flying low to evade radar detection. B)

WOW! B) Simply amazing. What do you use for 3D modelling, texturing and animation? Maya? About the brazilian coast: historically a Vulcan emergency landed in Rio de Janeiro. I think it would be a good idea to include it for the Vulcan missions if it is not much of an unnecessary burden. I know that some people in Thunder Works would love to see a Vulcan escorted by brazilian Mirage III ;)

Thanks for the reply and the picture! Now i'm teased. The argentinians nicknamed the C-130 "La Chancha". As chaingun said, the model looks great. I've seen the argentinian C-130 flying many times since i was a kid and i must say it is an awesome and silent airplane. About the missions from Ascension: that would be a looooooooong mission. lol. Just make sure to include the brazilian coast in case the Vulcans need an emergency landing!