Vigilant
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Everything posted by Vigilant
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No, nakonec sem vlastne blb. Staci udelat presne to co je v diskuzi o patchy napsany asi stokrat. NEPATCHOVAT existujici instalaci ale novou, cistou. Pak do ni premigrovat svoje mody. Dulezity je ze patch smaze data.ini a loadout.ini u VSECH stock letadel. Pocitat s tim. (hlavne kvuli WepPackum). Jedine co mi blbe sou vadne textury na nekterych mapach. A chyba se skakajici f-15. oboji je v ofiko diskuzi a asi se uz resi. Pokud vam budou nejaky wingmani blbe rolovat (plati hlavne o letadlech bez pridoveho podvozku) tak skuste v data.ini toho letadla zmenit u sekci podvozku znamenko u MaxSteeringAngle. (V angl. diskuzi to je jako fix na A-1 ale asi ma obecnejsi platnost). Tenhle patch se hodne ocekaval a dost z techhle problemu se cekalo. Prece jenom prinasi do hry spoustu novych veci. Rozodne je to vetsi krok nez mezi SF a WoV, nebo WoV a WoE. Jinak vietnam s green hell 2 vypada uzasne. Jenom to nebe je nejaky divny :-) (vsechno na unlimited, stiny high).
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Patch mi naprosto rozhazel ovladani. Napr. pod B nemam brzdy, ale odhozeni pridavnejch nadrzi, pod W neni dalsi waipoint, ale neco jinyho atd.... pri nastaveni ve hre to vypada normalne. ulozeny textak vypada normalne, ale pri hrani to vubec nefunguje. Netusite co s tim???
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AD-3W. Prave sem poskodil skolni klavesnici poslintanim. super
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Sorry ze to tady je dvakrat. Na novim kompu mi hrozne blbne browser. Nevim co s tim...
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Cau, po dlouhe dobe jsem zpatky. A potrebuju par testeru. V prilozenem zipu jsou kampane za Ceskoslovenske letecvo do WoE. HBVWPx jsou upravene z puvodnich kampani WoE. HBWNFx jsou z kampani NATO Fighters 1&2. Obe verze predpokladaji, ze mate nainstalovany WeaponsPack (tj. ruske rakety se jmenuji R-x a ne AA-x). Potrebuji aby to co nejvic lidi otestovalo. A nejlepe pridali ruzne dalsi dilky - hlavne skiny, pripadne jina/dalsi letadla (napr. Kukulinuv PFM misto standartniho). Pro hrani potrebujete tato letadla: MIG-15Bis MIG-15BisSB (vsude je nespravne pojmenovan jako mig-15BisBS - s tim zacal uz Wrench) MIG-17PF MIG-19S MIG-19P MIG-19PM MIG-21F-13 cz (od Mirage Factory) MIG-21PF MIG-21PFM MIG-21MF MIG-23MF MIG-23BN Su-7BM Il-28 Pro hrani NATO Fighters verzi potrebujete letadla z NATO Fighters 1&2 (viz. column5.us) Problemy o kterych vim: -kampani v 78' je desive tezka. F-15, AIM-7F a AIM-9L jsou moc ucinne.(Pripadne i HAWKy pokud je mate). -netusim kdy se ktere rizene strely dostaly do vyzbroje. Vsechno co sem o tom nasel si odporuje. Takze pokud to nekdo muze objasnit... cs_kampane.zip
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Zalezi na tom co chceme. Kdy chceme litat? s cim? Par myslenek: Prihodil bych: Mirage IIIC, E (mozna) A-7D F-111ky (ale u nich v zakladu blbnou ECM zavesniky) F-105F, G F-4G F-5E Hunter F.6 (Na nem moc netrvam, je na svou dobu hrozne premotorovanej) MIGy(krome zakladnich): 15bis 15bisSB 17PF 19P 19PM 21F (pack od MF) 21PF 21PFM(GP mod) 21MA 23Pack
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Where are victories saved?
Vigilant replied to Emp_Palpatine's topic in Thirdwire: Strike Fighters 1 Series - General Discussion
It is not completely unreal, that aircraft destoyed on the ground are counted as kills. It was in fact really used. Who knows when and by whom will get a cookie -
Nebylo, moje tehdejsi verse WoE me nejak zacala deptat. Tak sem ji jeden patek vecer celou smazal a udelal cistou instalaci. Pridal WoV, NATO fighters, Weapons pack a doslova vsechny letadla z CA a Column5. Zabralo to celej vikend. To bylo tak pred 2 lety. Ted uz jenom udrzuju. I kdyz je pravda, ze nektery ty letadla mohly bejt z Packu jako OTC, nebo Vietnam 84. A mam takovej pocit ze s nejterejma z nich sem ani nelital. Asi mi fakt hrabe :-) Ten seznam uz neni aktualni. Pridal sem JAS-39C a asi odeberu ty cinsky stihacky(sou hrozne zabugovany). Osobne bych byl spis pro specialni MP instalaci asi s mensim poctem stroju. Nejlepe to co se v Evrope pouzivalo. Navic tohle mereni nebere v potaz pozemni objekty, kterejch taky par mam, ale nepamatuj si kde vsude sem je nakrad. O efektech ani nemluvim. Takze pokud se shodnem na pro vsechny prijatelnem minimu bude to super.
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FGMk1 a FGEMk2 sou Phantomy RAF. proc se takhle jmenujou vi Column5.(nekde v tom seznamu sou jeste verze s ECM na ocase) MBB-57B je B-57B, tady z CA. NAW-10 je opravdu dvomistna A-10 z A-10 packu tady na CA.
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tady je muj seznam: dost tech letadel je upravenejch, nebo opravenejch oproti verzim na CA. Index of folders in: D:\hry\Wings Over Europe\Objects\Aircraft A-10A A-10A-Early A-10A-LASTE A-10A-Modern A-1H a-26b A-26C A-37A A-37B A-3B A-4B A-4C A-4E A-4EL A-4ese A-4F A-4L A-5A A-5B A-6A A-6B A-6E A-6E SWIP A-6E_TRAM A-6E_USMC A-7A A-7B A-7D A-7E A310 A310z AC-130a ac-47 AD-6 AH-1G AH-1J AlphaJet AMD_SM_B2 An-12 An-2 AV-8A AV-8C Avon B-26K B-47E B-52D B-52F B-57B B-58A B-66B BQM-34_Firebee C-130a Canadair Canberrab1 Canberrab2 CF-104 CF-5A CF188 dm-4a EA-6A EA-6B EF-4C F-100D F-104A F-104C F-104G F-104s F-105D F-105D-25 F-105D-25RE F-105D-31 F-105F-1-Early F-105F-1-Late F-105G F-106A F-110A F-111A F-111C F-111D F-111E F-111F F-111G F-111K F-14A F-14A+ F-14D F-15A F-15C F-15D F-15D ACTIVE F-15E F-16A_ADF F-16A_Blk1 F-16A_Blk10-NDC F-16C_B30 F-16C_B50 F-16C_B52 F-16D F-16MLU F-16XL F-22A_B20 F-23A F-47N F-4B F-4B_static F-4B_staticC F-4C F-4D F-4d497 F-4E F-4E IDF F-4EJ F-4EJKAI F-4F F-4FICE F-4G F-4J F-4JUK F-4K F-4M F-4N F-4S F-4SL F-51D F-5A F-5C F-5E F-7A Export F-80 Shooting Star F-82 F-84F F-84G F-86D-45 F-86F F-86K F-86K_Late F-86L F-89C F-89D F-89H F-89J_L F-8D F-8D_MF F-8E F-94B Starfire F-9J F104B F104D F104DJ F104J F11F-1 F2H2 F2H3 F2H4 F3D F3H-2M F4U-7 F86-40 F9F-5 F9F-5P FA-18a FA-18AU FB-111A FGMk1 FGRMk2 Firefly FJ-3M F_16B_10 G91R G91R3 G91R4 G91Y h-34 H-5 HarrierFRS2 HarrierGR1 HarrierGR3 HunterFGA9 Hunter_F6 IAI_Dagger IAI_F-21A IAI_KfirC2 IAI_KfirC7 IAI_MirageCJ2 IAI_Nesher IAI_SAAR IL-28 J-35f J-6 J-7H J-7II J-7IIIA JaguarGR JJ_7 J_7E J_7G J_7H J_7II J_8 Kopie - A-4F L-29 L39ZA LightningF6 MB-326H MBB-57b MBB-57C MBB-57g MBRB-57E MD-450 Meteor_F8 Meteor_NF14 Mi-24 MiG-15bis MiG-15bisBS MiG-15UTI MiG-17 MiG-17F MiG-17PF MiG-17PFU MiG-19 (IRM) MiG-19P MiG-19PM MiG-19S MiG-21F MiG-21F13 MiG-21F13_Cz MiG-21F_early Mig-21MA Mig-21MA_Late MiG-21MF MiG-21PF MiG-21PFM MiG-21PFV Mig-21R MiG-21UM MiG-23BN MiG-23M Mig-23MF MiG-23ML Mig-23MLD Mig-23MS MiG-23P MiG-25BM MiG-25P MiG-25PD MiG-25PU MiG-25R MiG-25RB MiG-27 MIG-29A MIG-29C MiG-29is914 Mirage5BA MirageIIIC MirageIIICI MirageIIICJ MirageIIIE MirageIIIEA MirageIIIO NAW-10B O-1E OV-10A OV-1C OV-1D OV10 P-3C RF-4C S-2A S-2F S-3b Scimitar seafire47 SeaFury SeaFury50 SeaHarrier SeaHawkFB_3 SeaHawkFB_5 SeaHawkFGA_4 SeaHawkFGA_6 SeaHawkF_1 SeaHawkF_1e SeaHawkF_2 SEtendard Su-11 Su-15A Su-15F Su-15TM Su-17 SU-27 Su-33(Sim) Su-7BM Su-9A Su-9B T-33A TA-4J TF-104g TornadoGR1A Tu-16 Tu-16C Tu-16G Tu-22 TU-22K TU-22P TU-22R Tu-4 PLAAF UH-1B uh-34 ValiantB1 ValiantB2 Vampire Venom victorb1 victorb2 viggen Vixen VixenFAW1 VulcanB2 Yak-25M Yak-28B Yak-9U
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CPG Poll 3: Features
Vigilant replied to column5's topic in Thirdwire: Strike Fighters 1 Series - General Discussion
Screw grafix, screw carriers, crew multiseats. Flight model(including avionics) that forces you to fight your plane realisticaly, AI that fights their plane realisticaly, AI that uses tactics, AI that runs away when in disadvantage, AI that can be suprised (you can sneak at him from blind angle and he never sees you). AI that doesn't want to die. -
CPG Poll 3: Features
Vigilant replied to column5's topic in Thirdwire: Strike Fighters 1 Series - General Discussion
1. High moddability (What you don't like you can change) 2. Detailed comms and ATC (You feel more "in" the game.) 3. Detailed carrier ops (as 2.) 4. Seat-switching in multi-seat aircraft (That would be a revolutionary feature. If these positions have some real utility (EWO is not only for staring on RWR screen and pressing Z and X buttons) a if they can be crewed in MP) 5. Dynamic campaign (Each replay is different, but bombing Dragon's Jaw bridge for 193rd time gets boring) 6. Story-driven campaign (less replayability, but more fun (at least on first play)) 7. Good performance on older systems (Not every one has a ultra modern machine and not everyone wants to pour money into it) 8. Detailed cockpit procedures (Reminds me of a post in other discussion: "So I have control stick in my right hand, throtolles in my left, feet on pedals and a spitfire in rear mirror and you expect me to search for flaps control with mouse held in what? Teeth?") 9. High resolution graphics, terrain and effects (This leads to 95% of development time spend on "looks good" and only 5% on other features.) -
CPG Poll 2: Aircraft
Vigilant replied to column5's topic in Thirdwire: Strike Fighters 1 Series - General Discussion
for 60's: Mig-21 F-104 F-5 Phanton is phunny, but sparrows set it in a different league (At least without realistic avionics and weapon reliability - then it is 25tons of unreliable electronics). for 70's-80's a serious mud moving sim (f-111, Su-24, Bucanner) -
Il-2 vs Il-10
Vigilant replied to hgbn's topic in Thirdwire: Strike Fighters 1 Series - General Discussion
Il-10 was aerodynamicaly superior and had a bit more powerfull engine. At wery low altitude (below 1000 meters) its performance was comparable to contemporary fighters. "Early" production aircraft had standart armament of 2 7.62 MGs and 2 23mm cannons in wings and 12.7mm MG in rear turret. "Late" aircraft had 4 23mm cannons and 20mm cannon in rear turret. Czechoslovakia build B-33s had 4 20mm guns in wings and 20mm turret. All versions had a maximum bombload of 400kg - 2-4x 50kg or 100kg bombs, 4 rockets. I don't know when production switched from "early" to "late" variants, some sources say that late aircraft were post Korean War build. Anyway an ini edit can make a good stand in until somenone makes a real il-10. -
How to add SAM sites?
Vigilant posted a topic in Thirdwire: Strike Fighters 1 Series - General Discussion
Hello, I need to add SAM sites with specific types of Launchers/Radars to the GermanyCE map. I was unable to find any tutorial about this. Drawing inspiration form original TW work and Mr. Bell's HAWK mod i was able to make this: germanyCE_types.ini [TargetType106] Name=SA-5RD FullName=SquarePair Radar TargetType=SAM_RADAR ActiveYear=0 TargetValue=300 UseGroundObject=TRUE GroundObjectType=SquarePair RepairRate=0.555 StartDetectChance=80 StartIdentifiedChance=20 IncreaseDetectChanceKey=10 MaxVisibleDist=8000.0 DestroyedEffect=SmallRocketGroundExplosion SecondaryEffect=VehicleFireEffect SecondaryChance=50 [TargetType107] Name=SA-5L FullName=SA-5 Launcher TargetType=SAM_LAUNCHER ActiveYear=0 TargetValue=200 UseGroundObject=TRUE GroundObjectType=SA-5L RepairRate=0.555 StartDetectChance=20 StartIdentifiedChance=0 IncreaseDetectChanceKey=0 MaxVisibleDist=8000.0 DestroyedEffect=SmallRocketGroundExplosion SecondaryEffect=VehicleFireEffect SecondaryChance=50 germanyCE_targets.ini: [TargetArea390] Name=Klondajk SA-5 Site Position=696902,378229 Radius=3000.000 ActiveYear=01/01/1985 Location=2 Alignment=ENEMY Target[001].Type=SA-5RD Target[001].Offset=141.000,570.000 Target[001].Heading=265 Target[001].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[002].Type=SA-5RD Target[002].Offset=320.000,550.000 Target[002].Heading=220 Target[002].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[003].Type=SA-5RD Target[003].Offset=390.000,383.000 Target[003].Heading=185 Target[003].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[004].Type=SA-5L Target[004].Offset=-490.0,217.000 Target[004].Heading=265 Target[004].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[005].Type=SA-5L Target[005].Offset=-415.000,277.000 Target[005].Heading=265 Target[005].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[006].Type=SA-5L Target[006].Offset=-318.000,277.000 Target[006].Heading=265 Target[006].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[007].Type=SA-5L Target[007].Offset=-445.000,52.000 Target[007].Heading=265 Target[007].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[008].Type=SA-5L Target[008].Offset=-350.000,42.000 Target[008].Heading=265 Target[008].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[009].Type=SA-5L Target[009].Offset=-268.000,97.000 Target[009].Heading=265 Target[009].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[010].Type=SA-5L Target[010].Offset=-245.000,-45.000 Target[010].Heading=220 Target[010].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[011].Type=SA-5L Target[011].Offset=-335.000,-100.000 Target[011].Heading=220 Target[011].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[012].Type=SA-5L Target[012].Offset=-105.000,-155.000 Target[012].Heading=220 Target[012].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[013].Type=SA-5L Target[013].Offset=-365.000,-295.000 Target[013].Heading=220 Target[013].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[014].Type=SA-5L Target[014].Offset=-220.000,-305.000 Target[014].Heading=220 Target[014].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[015].Type=SA-5L Target[015].Offset=-140.000,-245.000 Target[015].Heading=220 Target[015].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[016].Type=SA-5L Target[016].Offset=33.000,-138.000 Target[016].Heading=185 Target[016].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[017].Type=SA-5L Target[017].Offset=-5.000,-229.000 Target[017].Heading=185 Target[017].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[018].Type=SA-5L Target[018].Offset=26.000,-324.000 Target[018].Heading=185 Target[018].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[019].Type=SA-5L Target[019].Offset=214.000,-142.000 Target[019].Heading=185 Target[019].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[020].Type=SA-5L Target[020].Offset=242.000,-244.000 Target[020].Heading=185 Target[020].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 Target[021].Type=SA-5L Target[021].Offset=205.000,-330.000 Target[021].Heading=185 Target[021].ActiveDate=01/01/1985 But it has several problems: The site won't show in mission. If i replace the Types with generic SAMradar and SAM launcher, then the site will show, but there are no missiles on the launchers. Also one radar and one launcher are misplaced. Any help will be much appreciated. -
How to add SAM sites?
Vigilant replied to Vigilant's topic in Thirdwire: Strike Fighters 1 Series - General Discussion
I know where the site is, so i can make observation flypass. And it is not there. But what confuses me most is, that if i replace SA-5L/RL with SAMRadar and SAMlauncher. The site will show and will be populated with radars and launchers. But there are no missiles on the lauchers. No change. Well, the Gammons normaly show on other sites. But not on this one. Anyway, thanks for the help. -
How to add SAM sites?
Vigilant replied to Vigilant's topic in Thirdwire: Strike Fighters 1 Series - General Discussion
Yes, i have checked the Knowledge base. Yes, I've found Bunyap's tutorial and no it didn't help me. Is there something i've missed? -
How to add SAM sites?
Vigilant replied to Vigilant's topic in Thirdwire: Strike Fighters 1 Series - General Discussion
Unfortunately that doesn't solve my problem. That tutorial concerns adding a textured Lod into a terrain. I need to add a GroundObject. The _types ini is probably wrong and there is almost no explanation about that file/parameters. -
Podle meho je dulezitejsi Weapons Pack 2006. 99.9999% letadel pocita s tim, ze ho mas nainstalovanej. MF pack sou hlavne hezci modely. WP 2006 obsahuje snad vsechny zbrane pro obdobi 1939-2000, vcetne specialnich(atomovych). Dulezity je, ze pokud ho nainstalujes, tak mimo jine prejmenuje ruske rakety z AA-x NATO kodu na rusky R-x nazvy a zrusi Attachment type NATO a WP. Musis pak u letadel prepsat loadouty. Tady je o tom thread: http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showtopic=18346 Podtrzeno secteno znamena to problemy, musis se naucit editovat hru, ale pokud chces vyuzit skoro jakykoliv addon tak ti nic jinyho nezbyva. Nastesti je to vsechno tady popsany v knowledge base: http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showforum=99 Migy: to co psal kukulino. Pak je tady jeste Mig-15bis od Paska na column5, z nej upravenej mig-15bisSB od Wrenche http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?autom...p;showfile=5045 Jinak pocitej s tim, ze litani s migem je masochismus. Blbej radar, blby rakety, zadnej chaff ani flery, HAWKy, Limy, F-15ky.... Je to kratkej a krutej zivot. Mise a kampane: Editor misi existuje, ale vic o nem nevim. Editor kampani se jmenuje Notepad Musis si extrahovat _data.ini z nekteryho cat souboru hry pomoci extraktoru z utilities sekce. Kampane s A-7 jsou ve WOV. Pak je tady jeste kampan nad beringovou uzinou. K ni si musis stahnou i teren. Tam by A-7 bejt mela. Ale tuhle kampan sem nezkousel. Zbrane: Urcite si stahni Range terrain - tam muzes cvicit pouziti skoro vsech zbrani. pribaleny sou i mise na cviceni prace s radarem. Vliv zeme a slunce asi nejakou roly hraje, ale spis de o to dostat se mimo zorne pole rakety manevrovanim.
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R-77 and Soviet AG missiles
Vigilant replied to Canadair's topic in Thirdwire: Strike Fighters 1 Series - General Discussion
In real world such result is affected by number of other factors. Sirian pilots flying blind into IDF AWACS contolled fighters. Hell, 30:1 is too low. Here you have 2 sets of same AIs using same tactics. So factors like pilot skill (and personnel skill in general), tactics, doctrines, etc. play no role. Its machine vs. machine. Comparison to 8 F-4s vs 2 F-15 would be very interesting. Yes, exactly that. -
R-77 and Soviet AG missiles
Vigilant replied to Canadair's topic in Thirdwire: Strike Fighters 1 Series - General Discussion
You are absolutely right. But if we can't make it "real", can't we make it more "balanced"? Some Soviet waepons are underdone and some US are overdone. Yes, Soviet hardware was generally inferior to Western. But was it that bad? Example: 8 Mig-23MFs vs. 2 F-15As. Results: 6 Floggers lost, 1 F-15 shot down. It was all in close up (not BVR) dogfight, no SAMs, AAA, or other aircraft. -
R-77 and Soviet AG missiles
Vigilant replied to Canadair's topic in Thirdwire: Strike Fighters 1 Series - General Discussion
The Wepons Pack Soviet missiles have a lot of flaws. As of the 60' and 70' types, most of them were almost direct copies of US missiles. So it makes sense to adjust them so. R-3S = AIM-9B R-13 = AIM-9E R-23 = AIM-7E; R-23 has 25kg warhead (not 40kg) Of course it took Soviet engineers some time to copy them. So adjust entry dates accordingly. -
Ta neviditelnost je vetsinou zpusobena tim, ze model a/nebo textury jsou jiny nez popsany v ini. Vcera se mi po nainstalovani tech vylepsenejch ini takhle znicil Mig-23M. Doted mi u nej nejde skin. Ale jinak sem to videl spis u pridavnejch nadrzi. NF takhle dost blbnou. 2006 weapons pack skoro vubec... Na Lock on sem zanvrel mimo jine i proto ze ani tutorialy nefungovaly. Kdyz se radar nedokazal smirit stim ze 10 km pred nim opravdu je cil. Neprehledny brifingy. Zbesily ovladani... Ohledne SAMu vim, ze sme meli SA-2, 6 a 9 (protoze je mame dodnes) a meli jsme SA-3. Ale kdy, kde a jak nevim. Krome Sa-3, ktery byly ve 4 bateriich kolem Prahy. Jo, R-60M je all aspect. Napsal sem spatnej typ. R-60 ale puvodne neni. V tom seznamu je par podivnosti: proc ma AIM-7E-4 attachment type WGERMANY kdyz to je verze urcena pro pouziti na F-14? Byl to mig-23BN (kokpit byl z su-17)
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Osobne spis zustanu u 2006 packu. Kdyz sem stravil kolik hodin prepisovanim loadoutu z AA-x na ruske nazvy, nechce se mi to prepisovat zpatky. Navic srovna s chovanim R-3S problem nemam. Ohledne americkych zbrani doporucuju prohlednout: http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/index.html Tobe se povedlo v LOCK ON neco necim trefit??? Jinak tam asi bude R-60MT a ta je all aspect. O chovani R-60 se mi ale nepovedlo najit moc informaci. Na rozdil od mnoha jinych ruskych raket neni primou kopii americke rakety. R-23 take ne, ale kdyz ji vyvijely, tak meli k dispozici AIM-7E a do vyroby sla R-23. Takze asi byla lepsi. U IR raket je dulezita i konstrukce zamerovace. Lima je takovej zabijak mimo jine i proto, ze si na rozdil od ostatnich cil "vede" (tj. neleti tam, kde cil je ale kde bude...). Rusove takovy vyvinuly az nekdy v 80.letech (R-73?)(ale zase je slo odpalit mnohem vic off-bore). Co radar u migu-23? Cil zameri maximalne tak na 10km a to je skoro na minimalnim dosahu R-23. K cemu je pak dobry, ze ma dostrel 35 km? Nainstaloval sem HAWK mod a a) HAWK je hrozne rychlej b) nepipa mi RWR kdyz po me de. Vite nekdo kdy se dostaly do sluzby ruzny SA-x systemy a od kdy byly exportovany? Pripada mi ze se objevujou moc brzo. Hlavne SA-6, 8, 9. Ktery rakety pouzivala CSSR a od kdy? Zdroje co sem nasel ja si totiz odporujou. Hlavne okolo R-13 a R-60.