JFM

Hello!

Honestly, I haven't studied much about Brown, or even paid attention, because he didn't shoot down MvR. I focus more on what happened, not what didn't happen. But I know his story changed a few times and he was somewhat hesitant to discuss it at times. Plus, a post-war article In Liberty mag was full of fluff and has been taken to be "fact." But even Liberty admitted "Roy Brown was paid for the article and probably contributed all or most of the facts. We won't rule out the possibility that the piece was ghost-written but this is not unusual in any national magazine." Yes, he fired on MvR but he either missed or didn't get a killing shot on him or the plane, and he kept on going. Brown's attack came before they reached Vaux sur Somme. MvR's skimming the roofs and dodging steeples there after being fatally shot?

First, the History Channel.           That's aimed at them, nobody here. I used to love it but they've really gone downhill in our era of infotainment. "Ancient Aliens"?  I love how they had the show with lasers aimed at the plane to see if MvR's plane could be hit. I think that 1. since his plane was hit from the ground it was a good indication it could be hit from the ground and 2. how many thousands/tens-of-thousands of plane have been downed by AA fire? They acted as if this was some unusual thing. I'm surprised they didn't use Luke Skywalker blowing up the Death Star as another historical example of how lucky the shot was. But, in all seriousness, that map above seems about right, as far as the lay of the land is concerned. The scale is very small. Vaux sur Somme is very tiny. I dare say a Par 5 hole on a golf course is longer. If not, it's not by much. And I agree the landing ground was across the street from the brickworks and on the sloping field. It's pretty close to Vaux sur Somme. You can drive there in a couple minutes. May and MvR flew over Vaux sur Somme at ridiculously low altitude but they kept on going. They had to avoid the church steeple there. I took this photo in 2004. Compare the scale to the cars. I'll include a photo of across the street, where I was standing to take the church photo. Look how low those guys were! They were skimming the roofs/trees/wires.

I agree MvR didn't have long to go after he was shot. I agree Popkin looks good and in a favorable spot but, as we said, what about the soldiers around?

You should grab this book, if you haven't already. It's all about this subject: http://www.amazon.com/The-Red-Barons-Last-Flight/dp/1898697752   Used, three bucks! There's no excuse not to buy it for that price. You'd spend more at McDonald's.
 

Hey guys!

First, ever notice how “news” stories like this often involve auctions? Gee, I wonder if the seller and/or auction house are using the news for self-promotion/advertising?  And often these advertisements—I mean news stories involve quotes from people who have little-to-no idea what they are talking about. I mean, look at this quote: “Trench warfare in World War One was terrible and dire and claimed thousands of lives.” Thank you, Walter Cronkite! Thousands? LMAO That’s like saying you can buy a few things at Amazon. I won’t get into the sundry other errors in that article. 

Roy Brown. Rarely in history has one man been given so much credit or attention for not doing something. Brown approached MvR from the southeast in a 45 degree dive. He attacked Richthofen high from his port rear quarter—a bullet would have gone left-right and downward. MvR’s wound was right-to-left and upward. Plus, MvR flew on unaffected and still chased and shot at May after Brown’s ineffective attack. MvR’s going to continue shooting—which required manual re-cocking after every burst, due to his weapon problems that day—after being fatally shot through the thorax? Horse hockey. And all ground accounts indicate Brown “boom and zoomed” MvR—he dived, shot, pulled up and vanished in the mist, never to be involved in the chase again. I dare say it’s conjecture at best that MvR even knew he had been attacked.

As far as Popkin, as far as I’m prepared to go is “somebody” shot Richthofen. Who? How the hell do I or any of us know? Why couldn’t it have been one of the many soldiers reported to be firing with rifles? Popkin seems to be the best aligned machine gunner, but how does that rule out all the single soldiers? It doesn’t. But there were so many and no way to track down who was where and when, so they just get ignored and the focus goes on the machine gunners. I'm not saying Popkin didn't shoot him down. He could have. So could have so many others. However, I will say Brown wasn't one of them.

Note that on Hauksbee’s little map that most/all of the action was ALREADY behind the lines. This is a very import detail that helps debunk a lot of myths about MvR’s supposed “PTSD” “causing” him to “violate personal combat principles” by “feverishly chasing May over the lines.” I have a very large chapter about this subject in my pending book. 20,000+ words in that chapter alone, which is about the size of an entire Osprey “Duel” book. It's a pretty comprehensive chapter.

 

 

And as for the F35 it is overcomplicated, too heavy, unmanoeverable and way way too expensive for what it is.   

You forgot fugly. That is one fugly airplane. That curved belly on that thing gives it the worst profile. Same with the F-22. Hideous.

My eye prefers planes that look sleek, tough, and a tad sinister. Such as:

That's nice of you! I understand potential eye rolls over MvR books but this one will be very different. And using the format for, say, an RFC pilot (already have one in mind but that's cart WAY before the horse) will yield interesting results for a pilot/pilots not often covered.

The only downside is between this book and all the guitar playing I'm doing, I haven't flown in eons! I need to get back into the Alb DI. Maybe tonight...

_{What hasn't been published? There's a lot! This isn't a typical Richthofen--or any other pilot--book. I've written it in a format that's never been published before about anyone. The format I've created can/will be used for any pilot, so other pilots will be featured in the future, and not just German. MvR was first, though, because he has the most victories, I've researched him extensively, everyone knows him, and yet so many believe so many wrong things. My first MvR book was more biographical, whereas this one is more reference, although I did include a brief biography as an introduction so as not to alienate readers new to the genre. Also, Hauksbee, I plan on BIG photos. None of those 1"x1" photos you see in Osprey books. Plus a few unpublished ones as well.}

_{As far as how it's coming, Olham, I'm compiling stats for #38. Almost halfway there! I should be done with all of them by next week. At that point the book will be 90% finished--which has been five years' work--with a bit to write in the souvenirs section and some nipping and tucking here and there. I had hoped to include a lot more colorized photos than I've done but my recent wrist problems have really stymied my Photoshop production. I'm in the midst of a break from drawing until 1 October, so I'll see how things go then.}

And like in Hauksbee's photo up there, the reinforcement strip was tacked in place, as well as tied. Here's a view of Alb DVa 5390/17 in Australia, during restoration.

Olham I was under the impression that the 5mm represented the thickness of the strips, rather than the width.

All indications are the wing failures began in front of the spar and then peeled backward to "de-glove" the wing. But the sim can only represent so much.

_{Here's a sketch from the NASM Alb DVa book. Note that the finishing tape is labeled as 20mm. In various places I've seen indications of its width ranging from 20 - 30 mm:}

Hello!

As Olham said, on Albs the ribs had a cap strip to which was tied 5mm wide "reinforcement strips." You can see them tied to the ribs in the photo up above. Being tied secured them to the ribs. The wing fabric was then stitched to these strips. This is what held the fabric to the wings. The stitching atop the fabric was then covered by strips of 25mm wide finishing tape. All this was then doped, which weather-proofed the fabric and made it taut. As it tightened the fabric pulled against the wire that served as the trailing edge of the wings. The fabric pulled the wire in-between the ribs and this created the classic "scalloped" look of the Albatros trailing edges.

I'll go through my archives and find some close-up photos.

I give people credit for having brains enough to avoid being so confused. If they stumbled here they're just as likely to stumble on SimHQ, or the OBD site itself, or after a stumble here do some searching and find the other places on their own. And if someone posts a question here it is usually answered fairly quickly.

You you are right: for WOFF this place is deader than Kelsey's nuts. But what if they shut it down and then any future "stumblers" who come here don't see anything and thus never hear of WOFF in the first place?

Hey, Hauksbee,
 
I only have two semi-decent-but-grainyish photos of the Sablatnig SF-4 triplane. According to the info I have there was only one built, 901. Hopefully I can attach the images in here. I also have some incomplete performance specs (and from what I understand [mind you, I'm not an authority] there isn't much known) I'll attach (source u/k), and a pretty generic line drawing for the SF-4, but only the biplane version. I haven't found one of the tripe, but if I run across it I'll post.

Argh! For some reason only one will post. It's a larger version of what you posted. Let me submit this post and then I'll try to get the others up after it.

Seems I have exceeded my allotted disc space for attachments. I didn't even know I had an allotted disk space! I don't even know where to access this information to make adjustments. Maybe I can email the other picture to you. It's a nice rear-quarter view.

Here's one. MvR and Grieffenhagen, July 1917. Note their feet don't reach the stone.

I love the Walfisch. I'd fly it more but for some reason--unless they changed it in a recent patch and I've missed it--the WOFF version doesn't carry bombs. Enable it to carry bombs and I'd be starting a new campaign with it in two minutes.

Hauksbee, again, you'd be FAR more likely to be shot to death than falling out. So you'd willingly go forth with a real possibility of being shot to death but not willing to go to avoid something that never happened anyway. That's sort of akin to going to a Shania Twain concert and worrying you forgot to bring condoms because you might have sex with her afterwards and knock her up!   A statistical possibility, and in some crazy circumstances perhaps even ultra-remotely possible, but not bloody likely! You'd be far more likely to be kicked out of the arena after trying to get on the stage. So, falling out could happen but the chances of that paled in comparison to wounding or death by gunshot wounds, avgas immolation, and trauma associated with an airplane crash.

Jury rigging a harness might get you killed by the real threat, gunfire, because of the possibility they would restrict the required freedom/range of motion to defend your airplane. And no pilot would stand for that.

Most of the maneuvers in those planes would induce positive Gs. I.e, you'd feel them head-to-toe, not laterally. A 60 degree banked turn while maintaining altitude would impart a 2G load that you'd feel pressing you down in the cockpit. I.e., you'd be even less likely to be fall out in that situation than straight and level. Slips and skids would be felt laterally, but not alarmingly so in the FE2 (he typed while sitting at a computer). Negative Gs could "launch" you out but it would also launch everything else out--and right into the prop. Doesn't take much to destroy a prop. There is a great anecdote by McCudden who recalled that when he flew FE2ds they were so stable he could unbuckle himself, stand on the seat, and look backward over the top wing. He said his observers did not like this--especially when he lost one of his gloves that went through the prop, destroyed it, and caused such a vibration he barely got back in his seat to kill the engine and glide down to a landing. His attitude: "The way our observers and pilots used to climb round the capacious nacelle was most amusing." In our hindsight and age (at least mine, I'm 49) it can seem nuts, as does all combat in general, but to the 18-22 year old kids at the time who volunteered, it's the way things were.

Regardless, I'm not saying you are "wrong" for feeling the way you do, because I agree with you: I wouldn't want to be an FE2b gunner, either. Just that relentless wind would be awful for me.

I disagree with Wiki's "liable to be thrown out of his cockpit." Again, I can't find such an instance. If it ever happened, it was very, very, very uncommon. They were MUCH more likely to be shot than thrown out.

Here's a lil ol' book that goes into the FE2 and combat with it: http://www.amazon.com/FE-Albatros-I-IV-Western-1916-17/dp/1780963254  The reviews run from "the best WW1 Osprey Duel title yet" to "the most poorly written professional publication." Realistically, it falls somewhere between those extremes. 

Yes, VB, that first photo's perspective is odd and makes it hard to see how the gun was arranged. I'll go through my files and see if I have any other good shots like the second one. 

I have another starboard view but it's practically the same as the second one I posted. I did find the large version of the first one, though, which I wanted to post originally. Here it is:

That photo is misleading due to its perspective. I'll post a photo below of the same plane from a different angle. You can see that although it could be possible to somehow get in front of the pilot's Lewis, they'd really have to work at it.

EDIT: Holy smokes, that attached photo is massive but truncated. Click it to see the entire machine.

That's what Richthofen did 6 July, rather than try to make it back to Marckebeke. His type of wound only had a 10% mortality rate and he was never in danger of bleeding to death, but his consciousness was shaky. He initially tried to make it back but soon it became obvious he better land before he passed out and crashed.

Hello!

No, that was right, No.20 Squadron flew FE2ds on 6 July. I have the No. 20 Sqn combat reports and squadron record books and they were ds. The obs had two flexible guns as you see in the photos you posted, but No. 20 Sqd had a fixed forward firing Lewis, too, that the pilot fired. LOVE to have that option in a sim! Not to mention the d's 250hp engine.

I've read claims of pilots trying to fire one of the flexible guns but that was remote to unlikely. Certainly not standard. Probably couldn't even hit a cumulonimbus cloud if they could even reach a gun. Lanoe Hawker flew FE2bs and he took a carbine up with him to fire, instead of trying to fire one of the machine guns. Strapped in as pilots were, hard to reach them, anyway. But the obs was NOT strapped in, they stood. I've not read of any gunner ever being thrown out. As one said, it was his job to stay in the machine. They were in FAR more danger of being shot to death than they were of falling out.

I am NOT well learned regarding the Vickers FB.5. AFAIK there was only a single machine gun and no provision for firing upwards over the top wing. Perhaps someone will chime in if that is wrong or vague.

Here's a No. 20 Sqn FE2d. You can see the pilot's fixed, forward-firing Lewis at left:

Interesting that Cunnell is given the credit for downing Richthofen 6 July. Usually it is given to his gunner Woodbridge, although Cunnell was also firing. Neither of them shot Richthofen--he was shot by another airplane during that fight--but it is interesting that Cunnell was finally mentioned.

Looks like a pretty cool map! But just to fix some Wikipedia-ness: On 6 March MvR was shot down flying an Albatros DIII, and Jasta 11 had exchanged all of their Halberstadts for Albs by the end of Feb. Thus there were no Halbs to fly in March, nor Alb DIIs. His use of a Halberstadt has been greatly exaggerated in a few books.

No. "Oo-debt." Every single German I know pronounces it that way. And it's pronounced that way in this period propaganda piece:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs5cDYbCXIA

I took these at Vimy Ridge when I was there in 2011:

Although grass covered and eroded, the shell holes are still well evident.

Lots of fantastic things ahead for us from Bruno! One of the most important is his fact-based revelation about the fallicy of gray-shade interpretation, coming to Over the Front. Going to open many eyes...

Wha-wha-what? You say you don't get the Over the Front journal?   If you waste--I mean spend money on cable TV and have a real interest in WW1 aviation, then there's no excuse. Click here: http://www.overthefront.com/

Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in...

Nice, but noticed some significant gaps that need filling. I always recommend these to people because IMO they are that important to the serious and casual student of WW1 aviation history:

http://www.schifferbooks.com/search/results.html?search_in_description=1&search-option=&keyword=imperial+german+eagles&x=0&y=0

The Imperial German Eagles in World War I: Their Postcards and Pictures. That links you to Vols 1, 2, and 3. These three books cast shadows over most if not all other German aviation books as Mt Everest casts a shadow on an anthill.

http://www.amazon.com/Tumult-Clouds-British-Experience-1914-18/dp/034063846X/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1398112540&sr=1-11&keywords=Tumult+in+the+clouds

There was SO much more to the air war than scout vs scout dogfighting. This book details it from the British perspective.

:) 

Hi, 33L,

From my research and studies for my MvR book, I believe Thoughts in a Dugout was written by MvR after the autobiography, but not in 1918. All evidence I've found indicates that in April 1918, MvR was 1. not morose, 2. not withdrawn, 3. no longer had headaches, 4. the Germans had been on a strong advance (Kaiserschlacht). This is based on personal recollections of those flying with MvR, numerous photographs, interviews with MvR, and his combat performance Thoughts in a Dugout was more likely written ca. mid/late August 1917, shortly after his headwound, when he had begun flying again but before he had been ordered away on recuperative leave.

In March 1918, his head wound was 8 months old. He no longer even wore a bandage on it. He had been away from the front on leave most of September and October 1917, most of December, and all of January 1918--i.e., he was well rested, with little flying in the winter after his return. He shot down 11 planes that month (two Big Acks, an RE8, a Biff, four Camels, two SE5as, and a Dolphin), 6 in April (one RE8 and five Camels), with long periods of bad weather preventing even more victories. This was his best performance since Bloody April a year before. He was fit, active, friendly, jovial, accessible (ie., not "behind four walls"), at the top of his fighting form. Thoughts in a Dugout matches nothing in that period. However, it does match everything with mid/late August 1917. His wound was slow to heal. He was bandaged. He had to get bone splinters removed from it. A letter home indicates he was unwell after flying. Other letters indicate his displeasure/frustration/disagreeent with the tactical doctrin being forced upon the Staffeln. A conversation in early July, recalled by Bodenschatz, revealed MvR's grim assessment of the current state of the war. He was frustrated with the Albatros company after being shot down in a new Albatros DV, the performance of which mirrored the DIII and did not offer the expected performance increase sought by German pilots. The Third Battle of Ypres had begun. All of these things better match the tone of TIADO.

IMO, people look for "a reason why" MvR was shot down, as if he were some invincible god. I.e., he must have been unwell, must have had PTSD, on 21 April had "violated his personal combat tactics" (he had not), etc. Baloney. He had flown a short distance over enemy lines at low altitude, chasing a lone plane by himself--these are things he had done many times before. The last time he did so, he caught a bullet. C'est la guerre.