sygy

What if the F-104 had been designed a little differently in the first place (proper size wings and low tail). Perhaps the F-16 would not have ever existed.

After leaning (years ago) about the Lancer that Lockheed proposed, based on the F-104, I've since built some plastic models of what I think the F-104 could have been if someone besides me thought that K.J. simply forgot to wings on the F-104. I'm not knocking the old Starfighter as I think the F-104 is one of the most beautiful jets ever, but the wings are laughable. I ran some calcs on an accurate plan view and found that the wing area of the actual exposed wing (not counting what is inside the body) is only about 110 square feet! Yikes!!!! I've attach a photoshopped picture of a SF2 Screenshot of what could have been. With 300 square feet of wing area, slightly swept, with strakes to help control forebody vortices, and a low mounted tailplane, this Starfighter could out-fly, out-climb, and out-turn any other jet of the era (and probably a few today) from 200 knots to mach 1.2. I also think it would still hit mach 2+. The body would also have to be enlarged a bit to increase internal fuel as it was notoriously short legged. It could have been the F-16 of the 1950s. I have adjusted the Starfighter's data file to approximate this concept. Even using the actual J-79 engine parameters and a weight increase to match the concept, I still blow away all other aircraft in a guns dogfight - with ease. And this design is well within the technology of the time. What I would reaaaaaalllly love, is for some intrepid modder (who happens to feel the same way I do) to make a visual model to match. Even if someone just did the Lockheed Lancer I would be happy, but this F-104 mod would make me glow in the dark. If I had the software I'd do it myself, but I don't and it would take some time to get up to speed on SF2 modding. Cheers

I just found the first attached picture on the web somewhere showing a "Dog Fighter" version of an F-104. I have never seen this before so I suspect that it is a recent concept by someone, but you never know. In any case, I did another photoshop (second image) from the same SF2 screenshot as the very first in this thread but more along the lines of the dogfighter picture. Kind of reminds one of the F-5 / F-20 arrangement, and also very much like the image posted by Florian. I created another data file for the F-104C to match this concept and it IS a mig-killer, but I would sure like to have a graphics model to match. This thread got my interest in an upgraded F-104 high enough to consider designing/building a Radio Controlled airplane like this. It would of course be semi-scale, but I think it would be really great to have.

Appreciate it, thanx.

Thanks for the link, that is a really nice model. I do a lot of what if plastic models myself. Here's a couple pics of some F-104s inspired by the original Lancer. The one on the left (minus canopy) is about 10-15 year old, the nearest one is less than a year (and isn't quite finish). The near one is closest to the photoshopped screenshot I posted originally. I understand your opinion about the F-104 as I have had a love/hate relation with it until I realized what it could have been. With more fuel, bigger wings and low tail, I think it could have literally ousted every fighter then in service (and most to come) and could have even interfered with (or prevented) the development of the F-16 (as the later Lancer nearly did). If anyone is interested I can upload an extremely detailed report and evaluation of the proposed Lancer done by "Air Enthusiast" in 1971. Good read for those so inclined. I just need to know if anyone would like to read it and how/where to upload.

Thanks for the info Silverbolt. Any idea on how to contact he, she, them? I'm wondering if this just a 3D model or something that was intended for this or another flight sim?

I don't mind at all if you move it. Perhaps just leave a note in this thread for awhile so those participating know where it went. I started this just to get a feeling if anyone else was interested in this, but yes, it has become a genuine what-if.

Absolutely awesome. Looks like I'm not the only one with an interested in upgraded F-104s. This looks like someone put some thought into the design and model. I'll try to get some info.

You bet. I'm a big fan of the F11F Super Tiger as it was essentially what I am proposing in the upgraded F-104. The F-104 pilot ejected if he lost his engine, F11F pilots did dead-stick landings just for fun. But that fine Starfighter fuselage is very sleek and attractive and provided the pilot with an excellent workspace and good visibility for a 1950's mach 2 fighter.

Great comments streakeagle. I do think that the F-104 with the "right wing and tail" (actually something like the Mirage F1) would have still had all the boom and zoom, but combined also with good maneuverability and drastically better handling and safety. The pilots Kelly Johnson interviewed said they wanted it all -- better climb, speed, AND maneuverability. I think he could have given them all three, but he was the quintessential speed freak and seemed to focus on that. There is a report of a fascinating entry in Kelly Johnson's own diary about the F-104 (years after production) that said something like "...extreme fighter performance was not a good combination with short range weapons...". In my mind he was admitting he sacrificed too much for top end speed given the weapon technology at the time (guns and sidewinders).

I would love to, but I don't have the software. I was hoping a modder that is an F-104 fan might take this on. I'm sure it would be a relatively simple mod of an existing F-104, but I've noticed that there are few "what-if" airplanes for SF2 as most people seem to want the real thing. I kinda like the what-if's, especially if they are reasonable extrapolations of real planes.

Just FYI - The photo contest did not catch my interest for a couple of reasons: 1 - Edited photos allowed. I don't have the software or wherewithall to generate the kind of pics needed to win. If this was just a pure screenshot contest I would have entered some pics. 2 - The prize, a copy of Pacific Fighters. Well, I would bet that 99.9% of the people (including me) that visit this site already have it. Sorry, but because of the above I didn't even look into this. Rgds, Sygy

Sounds like you guys have a lot of passion about providing a good website for use of the flight sim community. I'm rather new to biohaz, but I do greatly appreciate the quality of this site. My congrats and sincere thanks. I see better now that when you make the effort for the community and don't see much response you feel a little, shall we say, disappointed. Rant Mode Off Sygy